Richard Allen Welch, Sr.- A Person of Interest

[beachlvr0810]

Even a teenage kid in the 1970s who learned about crime from watching Columbo on TV would know that the way to get away with murder was to get rid of the bodies (easier said than done) and get rid of the murder weapon (and not talk to Columbo).

Of course in the 1970s, there was not DNA from murder weapons, but any murder weapon, such as a hammer would leave marks, which could be roughly matched to wounds on bodies.

A murder weapon would not even be needed with small victims. I am not sure that a murder weapon other than a rock or branch would be available if the crime occurred in the woods. Of course if a murder occurred inside someone's house, several murder weapons such as knives or tools would be available in almost any house.

If bodies were buried, a shovel or other digging tool such as a garden trowel or just a screwdriver would most likely be used. If the bodies were transported a couple of hundred miles to the back woods of VA, most likely a large shovel would be used, which may have been in a trunk with bodies for the trip. If the bodies were burred nearby Kensington, a murderer may have used a smaller shovel/trowel, which would be both easier to steal from a nearby store, and to dig with unobserved.

The police did seize a box with a hammer in it. A hammer could have been a murder weapon. Or the box could have also had a small shovel in it.

Before DNA use in forensics, I can't recall anyone burning down houses or cars to burn DNA evidence, and I can't recall any criminals getting rid of shovels. DNA detection is getting better, but it would be a long shot if any blood/DNA remained in any crack or wood of a digging tool.

I can't imagine using a trowel to dig a grave. That would take quite a while to dig. Since the items LE took this time were the same items that had been taken before, is there a list somewhere of exactly what was in the box or did I miss that?

It's been extremely quiet on Taylor's Mountain lately. Too quiet!

 

[beachlvr0810]

Even a teenage kid in the 1970s who learned about crime from watching Columbo on TV would know that the way to get away with murder was to get rid of the bodies (easier said than done) and get rid of the murder weapon (and not talk to Columbo).

Of course in the 1970s, there was not DNA from murder weapons, but any murder weapon, such as a hammer would leave marks, which could be roughly matched to wounds on bodies.

A murder weapon would not even be needed with small victims. I am not sure that a murder weapon other than a rock or branch would be available if the crime occurred in the woods. Of course if a murder occurred inside someone's house, several murder weapons such as knives or tools would be available in almost any house.

If bodies were buried, a shovel or other digging tool such as a garden trowel or just a screwdriver would most likely be used. If the bodies were transported a couple of hundred miles to the back woods of VA, most likely a large shovel would be used, which may have been in a trunk with bodies for the trip. If the bodies were burred nearby Kensington, a murderer may have used a smaller shovel/trowel, which would be both easier to steal from a nearby store, and to dig with unobserved.

The police did seize a box with a hammer in it. A hammer could have been a murder weapon. Or the box could have also had a small shovel in it.

Before DNA use in forensics, I can't recall anyone burning down houses or cars to burn DNA evidence, and I can't recall any criminals getting rid of shovels. DNA detection is getting better, but it would be a long shot if any blood/DNA remained in any crack or wood of a digging tool.

I can't imagine using a trowel to dig a grave. That would take quite a while to dig. Since the items LE took this time were the same items that had been taken before, is there a list somewhere of exactly what was in the box or did I miss that?

It's been extremely quiet on Taylor's Mountain lately. Too quiet!

 

[steveP120]

I can't imagine using a trowel to dig a grave. That would take quite a while to dig. Since the items LE took this time were the same items that had been taken before, is there a list somewhere of exactly what was in the box or did I miss that?

It's been extremely quiet on Taylor's Mountain lately. Too quiet!

Unless I missed something, not only has it been quiet on Taylor's Mountain, but there has been nothing on the case in the news.

For planned murders with planned disposal of the bodies, I full-size shovel and a private place to dig would be obvious choices.

But for crimes-gone-wrong or unplanned murders, such as a robbery or sexual going wrong, the criminal would have to work with whatever is on hand, which could be a small shovel, screwdriver or other small tool. Of course as Richard and others pointed out, the most common thing to do when a crime goes wrong and someone dies, is just to run away.

Lloyd was almost certainly working on many petty crimes, any one of which could have gone wrong, but in any town, there are likely dozens of crimes, from drug use on up, that could go wrong. For example, I am not even sure what Tape Recorder Man was doing was a crime, but if TRM went from talking (and dreaming) to doing something with underage girls, something could have gone wrong.

 

[Historydetective63]

So are we to assume that the entire basement at 4714 Baltimore Avenue was ALL Lloyd Jr's stuff he left there YEARS ago and no other tenants had stored THEIR stuff in that same basement?

Yeah, I don't think anyone would assume that any of the stuff stored in the basement of that house now belonged to LLW. Rather, LE was probably looking for any trace evidence that may have been there for all of these years. Even when perps try to clean up a crime scene in order to conceal evidence, resources that LE have, such as Luminol, can illuminate potential evidence like blood stains that otherwise cannot be seen with the naked eye.

 

[beachlvr0810]

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/taylors-mountain-residents-plan-vigil-to-honor-lyon-sisters/34283824

 

[siriunsun]

Unless I missed something, not only has it been quiet on Taylor's Mountain, but there has been nothing on the case in the news.

For planned murders with planned disposal of the bodies, I full-size shovel and a private place to dig would be obvious choices.

But for crimes-gone-wrong or unplanned murders, such as a robbery or sexual going wrong, the criminal would have to work with whatever is on hand, which could be a small shovel, screwdriver or other small tool. Of course as Richard and others pointed out, the most common thing to do when a crime goes wrong and someone dies, is just to run away.

Lloyd was almost certainly working on many petty crimes, any one of which could have gone wrong, but in any town, there are likely dozens of crimes, from drug use on up, that could go wrong. For example, I am not even sure what Tape Recorder Man was doing was a crime, but if TRM went from talking (and dreaming) to doing something with underage girls, something could have gone wrong.

Hmm.....digging a grave with a trowel seems out of the question, but suppose LLW burned as much evidence as he could, except, or course, whatever he and RAW saved as "trophies"; and used a trowel to either bury or conceal what was left after the fire burned for several days? THAT is actually possible!

 

[siriunsun]

It seems that Patricia Welch has had her trial continued to April 26, instead of just going to court on January 26 and explaining what she said and why.

 

[zensiert]

Well, I don't think anybody is surprised by this unfortunately. She was first arrested 12/5/2014, a year and a month ago... She might get to trial one year and 5 months later...maybe. Who knows, maybe they'll try to kick the can down the road even further. If you're looking at possible jail time and you are 66 years old, you can see how she would want to put it off as long as possible. She does not appear to be in any hurry to clear her ... ahem, 'good name'. Just look back at all the relatives in this clan that have died off in the past 2 years since this case heated up. Maybe Pat thinks the rest of them will be dead and Randy Krantz will be retired by the time they get back around to her.

 

[siriunsun]

If Lloyd Lee Welch is found guilty, and also incriminates Pat Welch during his upcoming trial, she may wish she had insisted upon a speedy trial, instead.

 

[zensiert]

If Lloyd Lee Welch is found guilty, and also incriminates Pat Welch during his upcoming trial, she may wish she had insisted upon a speedy trial, instead.

It looks like LLW2 is still on for March 15. What is the pre-trial meeting on Jan 29 for?

Hearings

#	Date	Time	Type	Room	Plea	Duration	Jury	Result
1	07/10/2015	9:00AM	Grand Jury					True Bill - Def. Arrested On Capias
2	10/01/2015	10:00AM	Advise About Attorney Arrangements					Granted
3	11/17/2015	1:30PM	Motion - Other Pre-Trial	A				Granted
4	11/24/2015	9:00AM	Jury Trial				No	Continued
5	01/29/2016	1:30PM	Motion - Other Pre-Trial	A
6	03/15/2016	9:00AM	Jury Trial	A

 

[foureyes]

It looks like LLW2 is still on for March 15. What is the pre-trial meeting on Jan 29 for?

On Jan 29, pre-trial motions may be certain evidence should be kept out of the trial, or that certain persons must or cannot testify, or that the case <modsnip>
I thought your previous comments were well researched, and appreciate any plausible theories with rationale. Care to express your thoughts on the association of Richard and Patricia Welch and nephew Ted Welch? Or what the defense may suggest on January 29?

Quote:“In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” --Martin Luther King,*Jr.

 

[Schipperke]

There is still plenty of time to continue between now and March 15. There is still time to bring things into or throw things out of court.

 

[siriunsun]

There is still plenty of time to continue between now and March 15. There is still time to bring things into or throw things out of court.

No worries. No one wants to see this case go unresolved. I think the people who were uncooperative about testimony have been arrested, with the notable exception of RAW.

The hearing on the 29th is probably just a motions hearing. I will be very surprised if the whole case gets dismissed at this point.

 

[Schipperke]

Sometimes it is interesting to read back though previous information. I came across the affidavit filed September 2014, connected to the search on the mountain (link posted below) which contains information I had forgotten. Page 2 Paragraph 2, says that Richard and Patricia disclosed to relatives information about the case that had never been made public. Several people have posted and commented on the link in the past. There are many times in thinking about this case that I begin to wonder if Richard and Patricia are really the lifeline to solving this crime, but silence and/or actions have reflected on them indicating they at least have some intimate knowledge of this crime. Rereading the old threads after picking up additional knowledge through time, sometimes allows you to recognize things that did not register on the first reading.

When the grand jury was convened, did they have all the witnesses testify or only those who refused to cooperate with LE investigation? Were the names of everyone subpoenaed released publicly? How many other witnesses testified before the grand jury and were not charged with perjury or obstruction? I just don't see how the case can go forward against LLW until the perjury charges relating to the case are resolved. Does anyone have any knowledge or theory about the actual relationship of the grand jury perjury charges and the actual abduction of Sheila and Katherine?

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wset/SKMBT_60115022314160.pdf

 

[siriunsun]

Sometimes it is interesting to read back though previous information. I came across the affidavit filed September 2014, connected to the search on the mountain (link posted below) which contains information I had forgotten. Page 2 Paragraph 2, says that Richard and Patricia disclosed to relatives information about the case that had never been made public. Several people have posted and commented on the link in the past. There are many times in thinking about this case that I begin to wonder if Richard and Patricia are really the lifeline to solving this crime, but silence and/or actions have reflected on them indicating they at least have some intimate knowledge of this crime. Rereading the old threads after picking up additional knowledge through time, sometimes allows you to recognize things that did not register on the first reading.

When the grand jury was convened, did they have all the witnesses testify or only those who refused to cooperate with LE investigation? Were the names of everyone subpoenaed released publicly? How many other witnesses testified before the grand jury and were not charged with perjury or obstruction? I just don't see how the case can go forward against LLW until the perjury charges relating to the case are resolved. Does anyone have any knowledge or theory about the actual relationship of the grand jury perjury charges and the actual abduction of Sheila and Katherine?

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wset/SKMBT_60115022314160.pdf

The perjury charges are separate cases, at this point. I don't think unresolved perjury cases will affect the case against LLW. It isn't as if those charged are the only witnesses, and the case hinges on evidence other than their testimony. The grand jury spoke with all of the known witnesses, not just the ones who didn't want to cooperate. They also wanted to hear about the evidence found on the mountain.

The grand jury probably wanted to talk to everyone whose testimony or findings could help make a determination as to whether or not charging LLW or RAW would yield resolution to the case. At first, no one's name was released. As I recall, the arrest of Pat Welch and the complaints of LLW's stepmother were the first smatterings of information the public had about who was subpoenaed. Later on, more information came out, as non-disclosure orders expired and the media filed FOIA requests. It appears that Richard and Patricia are no longer the lifeline of solving this case, but in the past, they could have been. It also appears that they acted, instead, as the lifeline of keeping secrets.

 

[Schipperke]

It also occurs to me that it is a big jump from determining that someone was involved in abduction to actually committing murder-- even though the crimes may have some connection. I just posted articles which I found regarding two Pennsylvania young women who were abducted in PA and rescued in Wyoming THIS MONTH, JANUARY 2016, by a state police officer making a routine traffic stop--but one woman was able to alert the officer to her situation. The women were being delivered to California for slave-trade prostitution. It started the cogs in my brain again, looking at how a syndicated group could operate and confuse LE, the victims, and even the people involved in the illegal action while hiding the 'Bosses." I posted it on the Missing since 1975 thread, if you are interested. If the steps are A, B, C, D, E, and F, A and F may not have any knowledge of each other whatsoever, and B, C, D, and E would be limited in knowledge as well, if they were ever privy to any real knowledge in the first place. That case appears to involve people performing services primarily for drug money; they may or may not know what they were really involved in. One of those arrested was a juvenile. These victims were with young adult women, what if they had been children or young teens? That doesn't mean it is simple; it only means that it could be done, and involve people who have no idea of exactly what they are involved with.

 

[Ozoner]

It's fairly evident that Richard Allen Welch participated in the abduction, rape, and murder of the Lyon sisters. It's infuriating that the limp-wristed prosecutors in Bedford, VA, won't charge him.

 

[Schipperke]

Has anything (evidence) other than the claims by two of his nephews tied him to this crime? From what I have read, there was nothing in the way of concrete evidence ever presented. We know there were others involved, we just don't know who. In 1975 there were 3 other brothers alive and lots of extended family living in the area. IMO, RAW knows the story, as do a lot of others, but unable to tell what, if any, other role he played.

 

[Ozoner]

Has anything (evidence) other than the claims by two of his nephews tied him to this crime? From what I have read, there was nothing in the way of concrete evidence ever presented. We know there were others involved, we just don't know who. In 1975 there were 3 other brothers alive and lots of extended family living in the area. IMO, RAW knows the story, as do a lot of others, but unable to tell what, if any, other role he played.

His confession to the other nephew is what seals the deal for me. After more than 42 years, I wouldn't expect much forensic evidence.
I happen to believe LLW's account of seeing his dad and RAW disembering the girls' bodies, but his statement alone wouldn't have been enough for me.
If one person more steps forward to corroborate the nephews' stories, then I think RAW will be charged.

 

[Richard]

A person could theoretically be involved in an abduction with no intent on his part to commit murder, but if the abductee ends up dying (for any reason whatsoever) a strong case for murder charges could be made for ALL involved in the abduction. It could be concluded that murder was a direct result of the abduction.

In this case, regarding the Lyon sisters, it is believed by prosecutors that they were in fact killed but no solid forensic evidence of that was presented at the recent trial. Nor did it have to be, since Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. pled guilty.

In order for any other person to be tried for murdering the girls, their murder can not be assumed, but rather must be proven with evidence. Unfortunately (as far as has been revealed) the only evidence that the girls were murdered and that Richard Welch was involved comes from the testimony of Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. He is known to be a liar on many other matters. It could also be shown that he might be motivated to lie in order to save himself from other charges, or to gain favors of some sort.

We have not seen the entire story of Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. He may have told a number of different versions and variations of his story to investigators, friends, and acquaintences. And others have certainly related stories about him.

What should be remembered is that he first came forward to police on 1 April 1975 to state that he had witnessed the girls getting into a vehicle with a man that he claimed resembled the Tape Recorder Man (TRM). Now his stated goal was to collect a $7,000 reward being offered, but one has to wonder if he may have provided information which could be used today to identify and implicate others.