Rogue DNA

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by why_nutt, Apr 19, 2007.

  1. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    As you all know, a major component of the Ramsey intruder theory of the case is that since DNA not belonging to JonBenet was found under her nails and on some spots in her underwear, it must belong only to her killer, because apparently all items in the world are sterile when it comes to DNA, and its presence therefore requires that its owner knowingly and deliberately came in contact with the item involved.

    Whoops! The world in general is increasingly inclined to disagree with this intruder theory. As the examination of evidence for DNA traces is becoming more and more common, what are we finding? Stories of unidentified DNA from multiple contributors appearing all over the place!

    Let us take a tour of these stories, shall we?

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/...l?id=38b09cab-d273-4c2b-b303-452b1d5d4505&p=1

     
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  3. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=303492

     
  4. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Very interesting WhyNutt...and I believe it was rogue DNA that was found on JonBenet.

    If, if, JonBenet bathed on December 24, she went out several times and to several places from th 24th to the 25th.

    From what I can gather, this was JonBenet's itinerary:

    24 December:

    A visit to her friend Megan Kostanik's home
    Bathed? and put on a beautiful purple velvet dress with velvet shoes
    Church
    Dinner at Pasta Jays
    Trip to the big star
    Quick visit with the Whites

    25 December:

    Opened her gifts from who knows who
    Went outside to play with friends
    Sat outside Burke's door to make beaded necklaces
    Took off her soiled pants
    Did not bathe and changed into her Gap outfit
    Played at the White's home
    Came home

    The DNA found under her nails and panties could have come from anywhere.
     
  5. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    Interesting, that. On December 25th JonBenet and her underwear sat on two different sets of carpet, which, as we all know, trap and hold every kind of shed material known to humankind, up to and including animal hair from the yard and human DNA tracked in on shoes from the whole of the world outside those carpeted rooms.
     
  6. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I've always had a feeling that new DNA technology will blow the DNA 'evidence' in this case apart.I think it's going to get more and more refined over the years,and then what will the IDI folks have to go on? Nothing,for it will be all blown apart.
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    JMO8778,

    JonBenet's death is not a dna case, there is no evidence to confirm that any intruder was ever in the Ramsey house that night, her injuries are not consistent with any average domestic accident, perusal of the statistics suggest her injuries were severe and critical, these are not normally seen at accident and emergency wards, except in vehicle collisions, or terrorist attacks.

    One day someone will talk, probably off the record, most likely to defend a decision they took in the case, then the reason for not charging the main suspect will be revealed?

    Most of those involved investigating the death of JonBenet think her case is a typical incest case. The primary line of inquiry and investigation was such, but the public profile did not reflect this allowing allegations of conspiracy and corruption to be levelled.

    .
     
  8. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I know,but the IDI's like to cling to that one tiny piece of non-evidence,as if it is evidence and as if it is significant.Although I think the old degraded DNA has been proven insignificant,I think the fact that its old and degraded and wasnt put there at the same time as JB's was, will only get stronger as more refined technology becomes available,perhaps even right down to being able to date it almost exactly to the day it was put there.

    I agree,I think it's just like anything else that been kept under wraps for a long time,someone,somewhere,sometime will talk.And it might very well be BR when he gets older.
    That's something I've noticed when watching Unsolved Mysteries....ppl can,will and DO talk later,usually when circumstances have changed and theyre no longer afraid to.

    I thought most ppl saw it as a toilet rage killing.Although that's viable,and maybe there is evidence that leads in that direction,in light of the fact it appears JB was being molested,I'm not so sure it's all that simple.


    yes,as far as looking for child porn,etc...

    I'm not sure what you mean by this....do you mean the toilet rage theory was allowed to be generally accepted??

    .[/quote]
     
  9. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I think I remember 10 years ago, right after the murder hit the news, that child porn, specifically photos of little girls bound up, were found on Access Graphics computers in Amsterdam. I believe JR had offices there and traveled there on occasion. Anyone else remember this?
    I don't know if this was true, but I remember thinking way back then that this murder might have been a "photography session" gone horrible wrong.
     
  10. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    all I can recall is that there were some things found to be deleted,that were thought to be significant,is that right? I don't recall that very well.
     
  11. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I heard that report on the news- it was mentioned when the case was fresh, and just kind of faded away. I don't recall hearing that it was not true or had been disproven, I just never heard about it anymore.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]


    JMO8778,
    Someone will talk, and it will probably be a crime documentary revealing new evidence suggesting the main suspect escaped prosecution because ...


    Toilet Rage is one of a number of theories put forward by the investigators, and was employed by Steve Thomas as a means to explaining the bizarre politics surrounding the case, but this theory is inconsistent with the current forensic evidence, as is the Intruder theory. The main underlying line of inquiry was that JonBenet's death was a Lust Murder, or Sexual Homicide, and that an incestuous relationship was the most likely motivating factor, forensic evidence was collected and searched for to back this assumption up.

    e.g. Photographs taken of JonBenet were studied, her pageant activities were logged and analysed, her clothing was checked, including all her underwear, many of which it transpired had stains of prior soiling. Unreleased autopsy photographs of JonBenet's genitals were studied, along with Coroner Meyer's notes and his opinion that JonBenet had been digitally penetrated, along with other private professional advice which led to the conclusion that JonBenet had a history of prior molestation, in the politically correct langauge of the investigators this was phrased as prior vaginal trauma

    The Boulder and Michigan residences were searched explicitly for child pornography e.g.
    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
    755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

    and

    Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
    Charlevoix, Michigan
    March 06, 1997

    http://www.acandyrose.com/03061997warrant.htm

    Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
    Charlevoix, Michigan
    January 05, 1997

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01051997warrant.htm

    also:
    From memory the search results were redacted.


    It was never challenged, along with the intruder theory they were media explanations, reasons for the lack of a conviction, despite forensic evidence offering probable cause, are many, one of which is conspiracy at an official level?


    .
     
  13. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I'm guessing that won't happen until JR has passed.



    Thx,those are interesting links.
    I'm confused though...are you saying ST is lying? Or was he unable to get complete access to all of the evidence and what was going on behind the scenes politically...so he invented, or does he believe,the toilet rage theory? Can I ask,whom do you think killed JB?
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    JMO8778,

    Of course Steve Thomas was not lying, I do not think he believes his Toilet Rage theory, that was simply a device to give the rest of his book credibility. Consider, his then, legal constraints, he could never propose his actual whodunit theory, or enumerate the evidence, since he was bound by his terms of employment and libel law, also he was unable to obtain access to critical evidence, he eventually recognized that justice in Boulder was a relative concept, e.g. determined politically, so his book attempts to explain why he resigned and JonBenet never recieved the justice so many expected.

    Assuming the evidence is valid and that JonBenet was a victim of prior sexual molestation, that her pageant activities had a dual purpose, e.g. she was groomed as a victim. Part of her staging in the wine-cellar attempts to hide her prior sexual assault, or mask her previous sexual abuse, so this offers a clue to her killers motivation, otherwise it could have been incorporated into the violent garroting scenario without demonstrating any inconsistency?

    I think based upon the available forensic evidence that John Ramsey killed his daughter because she refused to perform some sexual act?

    Also I reckon Patsy was fully aware of the situation, and turned a blind eye, possibly even encouraging JonBenet, using the pageants to rationalize abusive behaviour. Patsy unable, or unwilling to fulfill John sexually, may have sacrificed JonBenet?


    .
     
  15. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    I have a brother you'd get on with swimmingly.
     
  16. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Replies above - just a gentle reminder of the reality of this case.:rolleyes:
     
  17. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I've often wondered if maybe she was silenced b/c she was about to tell someone about sexual abuse,however,since reading PR's comments and such from the interviews,I believe she did manually choke JB and cause the head wound,but I still question if it was bc of soiling issues,or JB just being tired,irritable and uncooperative that night,or some other minor thing.I know..that may not be minor to a tired,frazzeled parent.
    I do think JR did the staging and helped dictate parts of the RN to her.He may not have known JB was still alive,but I think he fashioned the garotte and was the one who strangled her with it.Or perhaps she was even seizuring,and he ended that with the strangulation.I'm NOT saying that was an ok thing to do,just maybe that's what happened.
     
  18. Ames

    Ames New Member

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    And according to you in another post, JR waited until Christmas to kill his daughter because she was out of school. SOOOO...you are saying that one night, JB refused to perform a sex act on her own father....so he said..."Well....I will show her. When she is out of school for Christmas break, I am going to KILL HER". Lets just all sit back....take a deep breath....and realize just how ridiculous this sounds.
     
  19. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    Yes, lets; because any proRamsey reading this line of thinking would be positive that the Ramseys are innocent and they are not. That line of thinking is exactly what John Ramsey would want posted so he could say "you see how insane these people are".

    Patsy did it in a rage and John covered for her.
     
  20. Dru

    Dru New Member

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    I don't agree with UKGuy's theory, but I do think that JR is the killer, and that covering up sexual abuse may well have been the motive of this crime.

    I've mentioned her before, but has anyone read [SIZE=-1]Marilyn Van Derbur Atler's story? This former Miss America was molested by her father until she was eighteen! Outwardly, she was a child a lot like JBR: bright, confident, vivacious, a 'pageant kid' who seemed to have everything going for her. But beginning at age FIVE her own father sexually abused her, and the abuse continued until she left home for college!

    An early article about JBR actually mentioned that Boulder Police at one point consulted with Ms. Atler on the subject of her incest experiences. So to brush the sexual abuse theory aside as if it has somehow been proved that PR lost her temper when JBR awoke with damp sheets and that any other theory is groundless is going a bit too far, IMHO.

    I can see PR 'losing it.' I can see PR panicking. I can see PR frantically shaking JBR, too.

    But I can't see the cold cautious JR being summoned by her to "help" and then not calling 911, but instead carrying JBR down to the basement, inflicting the sexual wound on the still-living child, strangling her with the rope, and engaging in all the elaborate cover-up that went on that night, for no other reason than to keep PR out of jail.

    The person that committed this crime is someone who does become enraged when he feels threatened (by a questioner, and by a child threatening to tell, or showing signs of noncompliance perhaps?). But once the unthinkable has occurred, the rest of the crime shows careful thought and attention to detail, to the extent that time allowed for it. I believe that every single element of the staging can be accounted for if JR is seen as responsible for the crime instead of PR; further, I think her own clumsy innovations/interferences are clearly hers, and would have hampered JR considerably if these clumsy things hadn't ended up focusing LE's attention on her!


    [/SIZE]
     
  21. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    good thoughts there,IF PR did it,one thing that comes to mind is that thumbprint on her neck,as well as her neck was likely very red after being manually strangled.If she went to get JR,one would think he would have held out some hope and called 911.BUT...(I'm not sure they thought to feel her head at that point),he didn't b/c there was no way they could say it was an accident with her neck looking like that...at that point,they could no longer say she fell down the steps or something.
    If PR did it,I think he aided and abetted her in it b/c he was worried about his image and his business..that would have been way beyond embarrassing for him.I think he would have been far to angry with her to feel sorry for her.
    But yes,he did appear far too anxious to be seen on tv and in church,(as well as HE was the one who wanted to get out of town asap after JB was found)so much so that I think he's guilty of something,the least maybe being sexual abuse of JB..which he knew would be found at the autopsy.
     

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