Roy Kronk's testimony

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Aug 5, 2008
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August 11, did you stop your county vehicle off Suburban Dirve.
Did you exit and go into the wooded area in order to relieve yourself?
Yes sir.
Is that something you summarily did?
We didn't have facilities available.
Did you know where the nearest gas station is?
At the end of Suburban I believe?
Were you watching reports on Caylee's disappearance frequently.
Did you have a roommate?
Did you did discuss this case often with your roommate?
No, not often.

Did you have anything unusual occur for you while you were relieving yourself?
No sir.
Did you go into the woods?
I went straight in and came right out.
Did you look around?
Yes, I saw bit that seem a bit odd to me?
Did you see a bag that appeared suspicious to you?
I didn't really see a bag, no.
Did you see a skull, a human skull, a small human skull.
I was never closer that 20-30 feet, and I did see something that looked of that nature.
Did you report that to anyone?
We found a dead rattlesnake and that was pretty much it that afternoon.
Did you not then and there say something to MR. Dean that you had seen a skull?
Not at that time. No.
Did Mr. Dean walk to the truck and step on a deceased rattlesnake?
Did MR Dean pick up the rattlesnake?
Yes sir.
Taht was here at that time on Aug. 11, 2008?
Did you tell him you had seen a skull?
I told him I saw something completley odd to me. I never told him I saw a skull.

What did you do next?
We went back to the office and showed everyone the dead rattlesnake.
Did you call the sheriff's dept. what might be a skull?
Did you speak to somebody?
I called OC and they told me to call crimeline.
Did you call Crimeline?
Did they respond to you after telling them you maybe had found a skull.
I told them I found something that LOOKED like a skull.
So there was no repsone but to call crimeline?
Did anyone from any LE agency call you for further information?
On August 12 did you call LE again about the skull?
What id you do that day?
I went on my route and went out.
So you worked as usual?
Kronk says he never called 911. He called his dispatcher. CM arguing with him. But I recall it was the dispatcher who called 911.

Wake up CM.
Did you call the non-emergency line?
Did you say you were on the Anthony route?
I didn't know I was on the A route.
Did you tell the operator that you saw a gray bag down in there?
Yes sir.
You wrote I don't know what it is, whether it is Caylee or something like that. Do you remember that?
Yes sir.
Did you describe the are off Suburban?
And there was a gray bag down there and further on I saw something that was white? And did you speak the truth?
Yes. I was never closer than 30 ft. I described as best as I could what was near the bag.
But you told them you thought you saw a skull?
Yes sir, I did tell them that.
On the following day you called again on August 12?
You told them I went, I had to take a you-know, and I went behind one of the trees was a gray bag and it looked rather suspicious.
And you said a fallen tree was there, it looked like someone tried to cut on it. There was a white board across the tree?

Objection overruled.

Did you say there was a white board against the tree? Did you telling them there was something round and white beneath it?
I don't remember.

On Aug 10 2008 did you draw a map for LE as to where you had been?
Yes sir.
And did you draw in the privacy fence on Suburban and HopeSpring?
I don't remember sir.

CM shows document to Kronk.
Exhibits being shown to Kronk by CM.

CM: you see where you've labeled this fence sir.
Yes sir.
Is that a privacy fence?
Can you tell us what you're seeing there (in a map)?
The line represents the water. Another line represents the tree.
Show me where the tree with the board is.
And the bag sir relative to the tree?
And the light brown object?
CM: Did you know approx. how far from the edge of the road that find was?
No sir.
Can you see the edge of the road as you drew it?
Yes sir.
And on Aug 13, 2008 neither of these fine deputies took you to that spot?
I never took them to that spot sir.
When you were in that area on Aug 11 and 13 did you smell anything peculiar?
No sir.
Did you in any way lift a bag?
No sir.
When you went into that area did it cross your mind that you might be finding Caylee?
On what date?
August 11.
I never went into the woods on August 11 sir.
Did you tell any of the deputies that you had found a bag that you thought might have bones in it?
No sir.
Did you tell Richard Cane that that bag might have bones in it?
I told him I thought I had seen a human skull.
But did you tell him you had seen a bag with bones in it?
No. (emphatically)
Did you tell him you saw the bag?
I was never closer to that bag than 30 ft.

CM: The area on Aug 11 was it dry or under water.
It was dry.
At the time you were in the woods, were you aware of there being a reward offered for finding Caylee?
I believe so.
Were you aware the reward was for $250,000?
Were you aware right around the corner were media trucks and people?
Were you going to tell anyone that you had found a skull and a bag of bones?
No. I never said I found a bag of bones.
And you didn't tell anyone else you found something that appeared like that?
My roommate.
But not the media trucks? Or all those people there?
No sir.
And did you describe to anyone what appeared to be white and the tope of a skull sticking out of a bag?
Yes sir.
And was the bag in August 2008 the same one you saw in Dec. 11, 2008?
I wouldn't know sir.
Do you believe it was the same bag?
I won't know.
Do you recall your depo from 2010 where LDB was present, JB was present, I was present, and your lawyer was present?
On page 18, line 19, you were asked do you believe the bag was the same you saw in December? You answered, yes sir. Do you remember that?
I probably said yes it is.


In the summer of 2008 he was a meter reader for Orange County. He has been employed there since May 27, 2008. He read water meters. Routes were assigned the night before - every night before. They never knew what route they had the next day. There was no particular area or route.

In August of 2008 he was assigned to read meters by Hopesprings Drive. He is not familiar with the A's residence. He read all the meters on Hopesprings, Suburban and the school.

On 8/11 no one was with him. He started the route by himself. Later in the afternoon two of his co-workers joined him - David Dean and Chris.

He remembered 8/11/08 because he found a dead rattlesnake. He doesn't really remember anything.

On that date he stopped his county vehicle on Suburban Drive and went into the woods to relieve himself. They don't have bathroom facilities so they went where ever they could.

Do you know where the nearest gas station is? The shopping center at the end of the road.

Prior to that day, were you aware of the search for Caylee? Yes.

He was not watching news. He had a roommate who watched news about the search, but he did not discuss that with him very often.

On 8/11, he was not really aware where the A's house was in relation to Suburban Drive. It was the first time he had run this route. While relieving himself, nothing unusual happened to him. He looked around while he was in the woods. He saw an object that appeared a little odd to him. He really didn't see a bag per se. He did not lift a bag.

Did you see a small human skull? He was never closer than 20 to 30 feet from it and he saw something that appeared to be that.

They found a dead rattlesnake and that took up the rest of the afternoon.

He was aware Mr. Dean was there when he went into the woods. He did not specifically see a skull at that time and he did not say to Mr. Dean at that time that he saw a skull. Mr. Dean did not walk to where he was. Mr. Dean did not step on a dead rattlesnake. Mr. Dean got a shovel from his truck to pick up a rattlesnake on that date.

He told Mr. Dean that he saw something that looked odd to him - that looked like a skull, but they were enthralled with the dead rattlesnake. They then went back to the office and showed everyone the dead rattlesnake. He then went home.

He called LE and told them he believed he saw a skull. He originally called OC and they told him he needed to call Crime Line. No one responded to him. He told them he saw an object that looked like a skull. He did not tell them that it was in the vicinity of the A's. No one from LE came and talked to him.

He worked 8/12/08. He did not remember where his route was.

On 8/12/08 he did not call LE. He read his route and went home.

On 8/13/08 he called OCSO again and was told that an officer would meet him out there. 2 officers came out. He believes it was Officer Cain and a female officer. He never took the officer into the woods. They did not ask him to show them where the skull was. They never went into the woods and he pointed in the area where he believed he had seen it.

On 8/11/08 he did not call 911.

CM showed him a transcript of the call on 8/11/08 to 911.

He lives in Osceola County and did not call 911. He called dispatch in Orange County. He called the non-emergency line and told them that he was a meter reader with Orange County and had the route that included the A's home. (He did not know that he had the A's route when he took it in the morning.) He told the operator that he was by the school and then was coming back and told them there was a grey bag and that there was something white. He was not saying it was Caylee. He told them the general area and that there were 2 in areas and a big long tree and a lot of swamp. This was the truth. He had seen a fallen tree, a gray bag and something white. He was never any closer than 30 feet. He said it appeared to be a skull.

On the next day, 8/12, he called again. He told them he had to relieve himself and went there and behind one of the trees was a gray vinyl type bag, like a pool cover, and it looked suspicious. He didn't touch anything. He told them there was a fallen tree that looked like someone had tried to cut on it at one point, but there was a white board...

OBJECTION - reading from something not in evidence - SUSTAINED

He told the operator there was a tree that looked like someone cutting on it.


He didn't remember if he told them there was something round and white beneath it.

Did you draw a map for LE as to where you had been on any date? Yes.

Did you draw in the privacy fence that extended from the last house? I don't remember.

Witness was shown a drawing and stated he recognized it as his drawing. It was drawn on 12/17/08. The drawing was marked as Defense Exhibit #66.

He saw where he labeled the wooden privacy fence. He then drew an area - the line represents the water and the other line represents the tree and he believes the X next to the board was where he saw what he saw. He indicated where the tree was and where the bag was. The skull would have been where the X was.

He did not know how far from the edge of the road "his find" was.

On 8/13/08 neither of the two deputies went with him to the spot.

On 8/11 and 8/13 he did not smell anything peculiar.

He did not lift a bag.

On 8/11/08 he did not go into the woods. He then said he did go into the woods to relieve himself, but never went back into the woods after that.

He did not tell the deputies that he had found a bag that he thought may have had bones in it. He told Deputy Cain that he saw an object that appeared to him to look like a skull. He did not tell him that the bag looked like it had bones in it.

He was never any closer to the bag than 30 feet.

On 8/11/08 the area where he was was dry.

He believes he was aware of the reward - something like $250,000.

On 8/11/08 he was aware there were a lot of media trucks and people right around the corner. He did not tell anyone he had found a bag of bones and something that looked like a skull.

Other than Mr. Dean, did you tell anyone? He stated he never said that - he said he saw something that appeared to look like that. He told his roommate, not any of the media in the area.

On 8/11/08 he did describe something white that appeared to be a skull sticking out of he top of a bag.

He did not know if the bag he saw in August was the same bag he saw in December.

He recalled his 7/30/10 depo. Page 18, Line 19 - Do you believe the bag was the same? Yes, Sir. He remembers this. He was told that it was the same bag. He never came to that conclusion on his own. He doesn't remember. If he said yes, then yes it is.

Did you try to get your co-workers to go look at it on August 11. He told him he saw a white object, they saw a dead snake, and everything from there went to the snake.

Depo - "I tried to get the 2 guys with me to look at it but they were too busy playing with the snake."

Lunch recess to 1:30
From the depo:
So what did you do upon seeing the skull?
I tried to get the two guys to go look at it, but they were too busy playing with the dead snake.


Roy Kronk - afternoon session
HHBP - read to jury official records of 911 calls from RK in August 2008

Played audio recordings....

after made call after the 11th -what did you do after made call? nothingX2 - already @ home...watched tv...went to day call also made after 9 pm - watched little tv and went to bed....on Jan 6 2009 recorded statement to YM with your counsel....I don't mean to be rude but you are being a little and time....i believe so yes...asked about crime line calls...on street before - read meters on A's street...knew where A house was @ end of the day but @ beginning of day -didn't know....any conversation w/coworkers about place to hide a body- all discussing Dean said to go and look...I thought that before he said ...i don't verbalize things of that nature...look like a skull or may have been a skull...telll YM give 99.999% sure it was skull...didn't know what it was ....a prop...something from flea market....I had no idea....honestly hot day - go home take shower, drink soda and get in day work a different route...On 13th talked to officer Kane and never got female officer name....look down to see skull...height above object was look down from a distance...


I lost audio for few minutes...sorry

RK w/cm.....court clerk hands paper to HHBP - approach along w/court reporter...


CM w/Kronk - after 8/13 did you go back with officers to that spot until Dec? no sir....did you go on Good morning America....$15K for picture of snake...received $5K....and Oc paid for my Atty and then i was evans sitting here (object- sustain) have you had contact w/Mr Dean and other officers -yes sir believe so....have son named Brandon you remember calling him around that phone call never happend...did you call him anytime in Novmber 2008 and tell him you were going to be famous? No that never happened.
From Aug - Oct did you go back to Suburban drive-had that route but didn't go to the area....

after deputy kane met you and chewed you out...did any LE officer inspect your veh in any cadavar dog inspect RK vehicle...never asked to submit samples dna....don't know if there was an investigation by LE of him....know if phone records subpoenaned? I remember him take picture of my phone but no knowledge of them subpoena my records...any knowledge of these people between Aug...what people? YM, Det Savage, ...LE people from 8/11 -
Dec 11th - read meters - read A meter on hopespring? didn't get that far...go into the woods by self...not searching again when went into woods...on 21/11/08 did you find what turned out to be remains of Caylee Marie Anthony - yes....I had never been to where that bag was - wouldnt know where that is sir...told us about see bag and skull and drew map....on Dec 11 were remains in same place or moved? It was flooded in Aug but much more grown up in Dec...didn't call to follow up w/LE - just let it go...Aug saw bag and skull...back in Dec saw same bag ? no same skull? ...I was standing behind looking @ gently put stick in right eye socket and gently pick up and gently put it down...and called LE...metal stick....put stick in eye socket of skull...yes sir I apologise ...gently pivoted it up - never took it off the ground...not stuck in mud - no ....after shock of what I found....very horrific thing...called area supervisor...didn't call 911 or crime lab..went back to veh...called Supervisor and said I needed him immediately i found human skull...Alex had been with me up til first is divided into 3 sections....Alex don't remember last name - horrible with names...deputies showed up pretty quick...don't remember who talk to from SO...ask deputy for $225 or $255K reward? no sir...don't remember any discussion about the reward to be honest....remember deputy pamela Porter...don't remember any names except.....ask if you were entitled to reward if baby was dead....might have don't remember...want to keep quiet so ex wife didn't find out...may have said jokingly....
I was still upset in Dec from Aug i got chewed out for just trying to do the right thing...angry w/SO =- no not whole dept - just one person...angry were not believed apparently - no sir.....
talked to Alex Roberts Supervisor that day...discuss reward...think we were jokingly talking about it...having won the lotto? I don't remember if that was said or just play the lotto that day....Alex knew about problems having with my ex-wife....on that day had not read any meters in that neighborhood....went straight to site where remains were i went into woods to relieve myself...remember talk to detectives about the reward looking for? we were discussing the crime line tip - we werent discussing the other one sir....joking with Alex Roberts about finding the we were joking about the money...never joked bout finding the body...are we discussing Aug or December? have any I told you so conversations about who came up with idea of searching the area for Caylee....real clear with mr. dean you found a skull in there..told them I found something that appeared to be that...good place to dump body and nobody would smell it words t othat effect spoke w/Mr August whole area dry enough to walk around ....I never discovered a body in August and it was in water in August....was it dry enough to walk around and not get wet in August? no i never walked into the area where found was too wet! tell me now you completely deny phone call to your son in November ...that phone call didn't happen....denying tell going to be on TV..... called him on 12/11/08 watch tv
and see him for first time since he was 8 years old..

remember ? Cutter...don't remember name...there was a woman with Deputy...yes I alluded to that to Ym whole history in August went to bathroom....I never found a skull in August, I did not know what it was made of...never stood over it never got that close in August....

6/28/11 - 1:30

Jury back in (1:32)


Did you advise the operator on 8/12 that you have been in the woods and you had looked down and saw a skull? No, Sir.

Stipulation - Defense Exhibit FJ (8/11), FK (8/12) and FL (8/13). 8/11/08 911 call received at 16:28 hours; 8/12/08 911 call received at 21:03 hours; 8/13/08 911 call received at 15:14 hours. Marked as Defense Exhibits 67-69.

First 911 call played - meter reader had the route including the A's home - he noticed something that looked white and a gray bag there; not saying it's Caylee's. It could be nothing. (Operator thought he said the A's lived on Good Holmes Road - he said Good Hope.) Swampy area by the school - they found a dead snake - tree lying down, back behind the tree is a gray bag and then something white. After he saw the snake, he's not going back in there.

Second 911 call - meter reader with OC, yesterday I read the A's route, got done and went down to Suburban. Called yesterday. Went down and behind one of the trees was a gray vinyl bag, like a pool cover, looks kind of suspicious. Didn't touch anything, tree looked like someone cut on it, white round board. He doesn't know what it is, but doesn't look like it belongs there. Across from the six foot high fence, gray bag a little bit closer to the school. Saw a snake yesterday and didn't go any farther into the swamp. He was then given another number, the tip line, said he didn't really want to call it being a county employee. You can still remain anonymous. Not if they find a freaking body. You can still remain anonymous even if they find a corpse.

Third 911 call - Hidden Oaks Elementary - meter reader with OC - swamp area - called in the other day and they said they would dispense an officer when he got there and he was there now. He's in a swampy area between the A's street and Hidden Oaks. He's in a blue 4 door Cavalier.

After the call on the 11th, he did nothing. The call wasn't made until 9:30 at night. He was already at home. Probably watched TV then went to bed.

On the 12th, he probably watched a little TV and went to bed. That call was also made after 9:00 p.m.

After any of the calls were made, do you recall making a recorded statement to YM? No.

He remembers going to the police office with his attorney and making a statement. He recalled saying he had been on the street before.

He knew where the A's house was at the end of the day, not at the beginning.

On 8/11 did you have any indication with your co-workers about the area being a suspicious area to put a body? They were all talking about it and Mr. Dean said it too. Mr. Dean said it was his idea to search the woods, and RK said it was his.

He stated it may have or looked like a skull. In his depo he stated it was 99.999% sure. He also stated it could have been a prop or something bought at a flea market. He also said it was a hot day and he wanted to go home and relax.

He worked on the 12, not the same route.

On the 13th, he talked to officer Cain he believes. There was a female, but he never got her name. Did you tell them that you had looked down to see the skull? He said that he was at a height above where the object was and that was why he was looking down. He pointed in the general area of where it was. He did not get within 6 to 8 feet of it.

Regarding his statement to YM, he never told them he got between 6 to 8 feet from it.

Deputy Cain went down to the water line, looked both directions, walked back, slipped in the mud and came back and chewed him out for a half an hour.

In sworn statement to YM - if he said he was 6 or 8 feet, then that is what it was.

On the 10th, he was from here to the other side of the room from the object.

He did not go back till the 12th.


SIDEBAR #5 (1:56 -1:59)

He was shown his statement and stated that he agreed he was 99.99% sure, but he did not know what it was made of - he just knew it was a skull.

He then agreed that he did say 100% certain it was a skull.

After the 13th, he did not go back or do anything with the authorities prior to the remains being found. He was not involved in any capacity.

He did go on Good Morning America in January. He was paid for a licensed picture of a snake $15,000 and collected $5,000 from Crime Line. Orange County stopped paying for his attorney and then they stopped paying him.


He has been questioned since then.

He has a son named Brandon Sparks. He did not call him around Thanksgiving of 2008. He did not call him and tell him that he was soon to be famous.

Between 8/13 and 12/11, the only time he went to that area was when he had that route, but he never stopped there again. He did not go by the A's. He did not go out there again.

After Deputy Cain chewed him out, no law enforcement officer examined his vehicle. No cadaver dog was sent to his car. He was never asked to submit DNA. He doesn't know if he was investigated further. Do you know if your phone records were subpoenaed?


He remembered YM take a photo of his phone while he was in the meeting with YM and his attorney.

He had no contact with law enforcement between 8/13 and 12/11.

He was back in that area on December 11. He did not get tot he area of the A's house. He went back to Suburban Drive. He went into the woods. He was not searching again. He did find what turned out to be the remains of Caylee. He had never been to where the bag was, so he doesn't know if they were in the same place.

In August it was flooded and December it was not.

He did not inquire of LE what was going on between August and December.

The bag was not the same. He was standing behind it and he was looking at it from behind. He still didn't think it was real so he gently put his meter reader stick into the eye socket and picked it up and then put it down. He gently pivoted it up. He never took it off of the ground. It was not stuck in the mud. After finding what he found, the shock of it, it was very horrific.

He then called his area supervisor. He did not call Crime Line or 911. He told his supervisor that he needed him there immediately - that he had found a human skull. Alex had been with him right up to the first of the three section route. He doesn't know Alex's last name.

Deputies showed up pretty quickly. He did not recall who he talked to first. Did he ask them if he was still entitled to the reward? No, sir. He really doesn't remember. He did not remember Deputy Pamela Porter - other than YM. He might have asked if he was still entitled to the reward if that was the baby and she was dead? He might have also jokingly said he would want to keep it quiet so his ex-wife didn't hear about it. He probably asked them why they didn't do anything in August. He tried to help and he got chewed out for a half hour and got called bad things. He wasn't angry with the OCSO - just generally angry because they didn't believe him?


He was not angry that he was not believed.

He talked to his supervisor Alex Roberts. He thinks they were jokingly talking about the reward. He doesn't remember if it was said that he had won the Lotto or that he should play the Lotto that day. Alex was aware of the problems he was having with his ex-wife.

He had not read any meters in that part of the neighborhood. He went into the woods to relieve himself.

Did he talk to the detectives about the reward? They were talking about the crime line tip - not the other one.

He was joking about finding the body? No - they were joking about the money. He never joked about finding the body.

After the body was found, he did not have any "I told you so" conversations with Mr. Dean.

On August 11 he told Mr. Dean that he thought he found a skull and that they had a conversation about that being a good place to dump a body and no one would smell it.

In August it was in water. It was not dry enough for him to walk around. He never walked in the area where the skull was in August.

He denied making a phone call at all in November? His son was mistaken, that phone call never happened. He told him on December 11 and told him that he had found something and that if he looked on TV he would be able to the first time since he was 8 years old.

Kathlyn Kutcher with OCSO - he doesn't remember having any conversations with anyone by that name. He agreed there was a woman with Deputy Cain.

Do you remember telling YM about what happened in August?

He said that CM was making it sound like he was standing down looking at a skull.

He was never told to not talk about the August reporting and findings.

Court recessed until 2:45

RK w/CM - spoke w/his son 12-15 times between Aug and Dec from his cell...gave number...on any of those conversations did you tell him your were going to be famous/rich/.....NO.....make money? not really - talk about when he got out of coast guard going into business.....any time comment to Detectives that Roy has to eat too? no sir.....12/2009 recorded statement with YM 44 - engage in conversation with YM ,,,,,Roy has to eat too....jokingly I probably did....story change regard what you found and how found it....once had chance to think about it made mistake in orginal statement....marked #FM - recognize statement handwriting date 12/11/08 - evidence....object-sustained...cant hear....
on that day anything about bag poke w/stick - yes....bag opened small human skull with duct tape and hair dropped out...yes that was my original statement...didn't say in statement that you had lifted bag...don't remember...did in fact lift out back arms length straight out...standing....didn't put in statement that or stick meter reader stick into eye socket of had a verbal conversation where I said those things I just neglected to write them down...forgot to tell them? no sir....@ depo w/JB and myself ....really dont remember....lift bag 4' off ground - true when did that skull dropped out...skull rolled out...I told you I made mistake on first statement...forget statement ....did lift bag-yes...skull roll out- NO did you move skull...I told you I moved it with my stick had I known I wouldn't have done that....what version is correct...what I told you today.....

CM looking up statements


(My personal observations of ICA are that she appears to be looking drowsy and her eyes seem kind of sunken in with dark circles underneath - there is also a bailiff standing directly behind her)


Jury coming back in (2:49)


Did you say you had no contact with your son for a long period of time? The phone call that my son was talking about never happened. Between August and December he talked to him a total of 12 to 15 times. He used his cell phone. He called from 321-987-6542. He doesn't know his son's number. It is in his phone memory.

Did you tell him in any of those calls that you were going to be famous? I don't think so.

Did you tell him you were going to be rich? Not really. They were talking about possibly going into business together when he got out of the Coast Guard.

Did you talk to any of the detectives about needing money? No, Sir.

Did you comment to any of the detectives that Roy has to eat too? No, Sir.

1/6/09 sworn statement to YM - did you engage in a conversation with YM about needing money but wanting to keep a low profile? It is possible, yes, sir. Jokingly he probably said Roy has to eat too.

Did you talk to detectives about his story changing? Yes, he told them that once he had a chance to think about it, he realized he made a mistake in his original statement.

He was shown his 12/11/08 statement marked as Exhibit FM.


Did you tell them anything that day about the bag opening and a small human skull with duct tape and hair still on it dropped out. Yes, sir.

You did not tell them that you lifted the bag? I don't remember.

He lifted the bag arms length up. He did not put that in his statement. He also didn't put into his statement that he put the meter reader stick in the eye socket.

He stated they had a verbal conversation about those things - he just neglected to write them down.

Did he first mention them in his deposition? He doesn't remember.

Is it true that you lifted the bag? Yes, sir.

Is it true that when you did that, the skull rolled out? No, sir.

He made a mistake on his first statement.

The skull did not come out of the bag in any way.

When the bag was no longer on top of the skull, he gently lifted the front of the skull. He didn't even know what it was at the time. Had he known, he wouldn't have even done that.

The skull did not roll out of the bag.

When you said that before, it was a mistake?

OBJECTION - What statement?

CM looking for where the witness made that statement -

It was in his December 11 statement that he said it dropped out.

Did you ever say it rolled out? The whole period for him is kind of fuzzy. It really unnerved him.

So - today he is saying the lifted the bag, after about the third bag the contents shifted, he then looked down and saw the skull. He did not think anything fell out of the bag when he was holding it up.

How many statements did you give to LE? No.

He believes he mentioned lifting the skull prior to his deposition. He believes he mentioned it in his ABC interview.

Did he remember telling YM that he had called back in August? He stated he told them he had called Crime Line.

He doesn't remember telling any LE on December 11 that he had called back in August.

Was he ever told not to say anything about calling back in August? No.

Keeping a low profile? Conversation about not telling the world?


He has a computer and had it in the summer of 2008. LE never requested his computer records.

He did not work the day before December 11. The clutch went out on his car and he had to have car repairs. He needed money on the 10th - over $1000 for truck repairs.

Did he recall saying anything to his son or anyone else about needing money? He might of, but doesn't remember specifically.

He found the body the next day, December 11.

He was shown Defense Exhibit FN and stated he recognized it as the bill for his car to be repaired which he received on December 10. Bill marked as Exhibit 70 with no objection by the State.

No further questions. (3:12)

cM w/RK confirm hold bag out @ shoulder height w/stick and shook bag couple three times....looked down @ feet and found skull...things so fuzzy after just finding what i saw...

remember discussing w/YM or others called back in Aug to alert SO have found vinyl like bag with a skull.....I told him I made a crime need to keep that a secret - don't tell anybody....what aspect are you talking about? who are you referring to POlice...any of them YM
called back...completely lost me...anytime tell LEO don't say anythin about are not being specific enough please be specific....any conversations to the police instructed to not talk about your earlier the police? yes.....NO SIR
keep low profile - keep out of public conversation - yes sir...
at that time did you have ....about telling the world...Object-sustain

cm asks for a moment....confers w/JB while kc looks on.;...have a computer in summer of 2008 yes..any computer records requested by LE? no sir not that I know other thing to talk to you about on 12/11/08 did you work day before? had day off - clutch went out of my repairs.....have a need for some money that day 12/10/08 over $1000 for truck repairs...recall saying anything to son or anyone about needing money...might have said that to somebody...don't remember day 12/11/08 make those findings...yes sir...

CM -Defense #FN - bill from car dealer on 12/10/08 - next exhibit in evidence - no objections...received in evidence ...publish

no further questions @ this time

Cross- LDB- do not know KC, LA, GA, not know Dom Casey or Jim Hoover...not from Orlando except recently....from Kissimmee St Cloud - Oseola County...moved to FL in Aug job end of May 2008 @ w/OC....go read meters assignments - had to put coordinates into GPS so you knew where to go....after awhile you got to go out and about to read meters in Orange Co...not until Aug 2008 assigned A home ....first time ever in neighborhood? one time before w/David Dean he drove me by the house.....on 12/11/08 on your route....yes...

Aug 11 2008 chronology...finish your route in afternoon co-workers meet with you on Suburban Dr...before return to office on Curry Ford Rd....3routes on that neighborhood...I almost finished with the second part of the route when DAvid and new trainee showed up and took third part and I finished the second part and meet up on in by 6:30 out by 7....easy routes and hard routes we go help any one who is still out on a route because it is just brutal because of the heat....other guys stopped on Suburban...relieve self in woods look around describe to non-emergency line person what you saw something suspicious...yes told Mr. Dean something of them started screaming like little girls about the snake..everyone loads up in the car and 3everyone act silly...last discussion with those guys about what thought you saw on Suburban- correct....that day both sides of Suburban was a swamp....all wet through there? yes....also indicated @ some point looking down on something...because Street level of Suburban....grassy area and then veil of vines an immediately slopes down to lower area....where slopes lower than street level full of water in August...discuss roommate after 9pm...was not allowed to interrupt her while she watch tv so I wait until in Oseola find a number for Orange County non-emergency....ask you what was your emergency...yes....did you have expectation to go with them @ night and show them @ night the location.....the next day you call again after 9pm....some expectation to leave your house and travel to Suburban Drive in dark and show deputy what you saw ...No day on 13th after work while still light out call from location tell Deputy to meet there to show where and what it was...yes mam....A female Deputy and male meet with you....he did cursory look around - then berate you for wasting his time....stay up on the berm or did you go down into lower area where deputy went? stay up higher on grassy area...he spent next to no time looking around slipped in mud, got annoyed - yelled at you - because way treated let matter go...yes

before assigned to this route in Aug never been to the A reason to go into their home ...aside from work responsiblity never been near home...never had access to Pontiac access to home or garage...OBJect overrule...other than meter in their front yard no man - people across street tons of people...never been in home, backyard, no access to their computer...object- overrule...never access to computer in A residence - no access to Caylee clothing/diapers/pullups/ garbage bags from A home...none of Caylee's blankets, never access to duct tape in A family home...

No Questions
Witness excused subject to recall



He doesn't know any of the A's or DC or JH.

He moved to Orlando in May of 2007. He lives in Osceola County. He got this job in May of 2008.

He used his GPS to know where he was going every day.

It wasn't until 8/11/08 that he was assigned a route that include the A's house.

On 8/11 he finished his route and then met with his co-workers on Suburban. Dave and Chris came by and told them they would finish what he had to do and to meet them down at the shady part on Suburban. Whoever gets done first will always go find who is not finished and help them finish up.

After relieving himself, he came out of the woods and told Mr. Dean that he had seen something suspicious. He was walking toward them and they started screaming like little girls and he saw the snake and then they loaded it up and took off. That was the end of his discussion with them.

He described to the non-emergency operator that both sides of the road were swamp. He said he was looking down because there was the street level of Suburban, then a grassy area and then it immediately sloped down. That was the area that was full of water.

He made the first call after 9:00 when he had a phone conversation with his roommate. He was in Osceola County and had to find a non-emergency number for Orange County. They did not ask him to meet him that night. He did not expect that he would have had to do that. He just gave them the information.

The next day he called again with the same information. It is again after 9:00. He again didn't think he was going to have to leave his house and go meet with someone then. He then called Crime Line and gave them the same info.

Then on the 13th, while it is still light out, he calls again and asks for a deputy come meet him. This is when a Deputy came out, met with him, the Deputy goes down the slope, did a cursory look around and then proceeded to berate him about wasting his time. The female deputy stayed up on the road with him. The officer spent no time looking around, slipped, fell and then berated him. Because of how he was treated at that time, he let the matter go.

He needed money on December 10 because the clutch went out on his car. He would have needed money in June thru October for other reasons.

Beside his work responsibility, he has never been near the A's home.

He has never had access to the Sunfire or the garage.


When he read their meter on August 11, there were tons of media at their house.

He has never had access to the inside of their home or backyard.

Their computer?


Their computer? No. Never had access to Caylee's clothing, diapers, laundry bags, garbage bags, blankets or duct tape.

Witness is excused subject to recall (3:26)


Second statement he made on 12/08.

After he made the discovery, he was asked to wait in his truck and he was asked to write out a statement and this is the statement in which he said the skull dropped out of the bag.


Did LE ask him to go somewhere private? He went to their car. He doesn't remember if that statement was recorded. He was shown it and agreed they advised him it was going to be recorded. At that time he told them what he saw and what he did. He wanted to tell them what happened.

Do you recall telling them on 2 occasions that you did not touch anything? Yes, sir. He told them that he manipulated the skull with his meter stick. He told them he stuck the meter stick in the eye socket and lifted it. He knows that he said that. He reviewed his statement. He agreed there is no statement of that in the statement he read. It did say the skull dropped out of the bag.

Toward the end of the statement he was asked if there was anything else he wanted to tell them. He did not recall this so JB showed him the statement and he agreed.

He mentioned calling Crime Line. It is not in your statement is it?

OBJECTION - asked and answered yesterday - SUSTAINED

Who did you tell that you had called Crime Line?

OBJECTION - asked and answered - OVERRULED

He told this to the officer who was first on the scene. That officer told him not to mention it - but not to keep his mouth shut.

Regarding his statement given to LE when his attorney was present -

OBJECTION - I'm impeaching - HHJBP - Impeaching who?

SIDEBAR #8 (2:54-2:59)

The purpose was to clarify your stement?


Did you testify that the first time your story was changed? YEs, sir.


That was the fist time, but I had changed it long before that.

You could not have discovered a skull in August and made it in the bag in Deember?


Now the skull was in the bag as opposed to dropping out of the bag.

The reason you changed your story was that LE had found out about your initial calls.


Why did you chage your storyu? After he calmed down, he re-ran the events in his mind and realized he made a mistake.

He characterized his demeaner as over-whelmed.

OBJECTION - asked and answered - SUSTAINED

On both of your statements on 12/11, you agreed you never made the statement about sticking his meter stick in the eye socket? If he omited it, it was because he was overwhelmed.


How many statements did you make before saying you stuck the meter stick into the eye socket?


Did you make 7 statements before saying you had stuck the meter stick in the eye socket?

OBJECTION - asked and answered - SUSTAINED

Recess to 3:25
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