Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #5

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Bit of hope said:
Are you saying Blinken spoke out of turn?
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I don't think he spoke out of turn in terms of accuracy of content, but I think he could have said it differently in terms of diplomacy in relation to Poland. To say they have the "green light" may have put Poland on the spot, as they were moving more toward a red light.

He also said that the U.S. was "considering" backfilling newer fighter jets to Ukraine if Ukraine moved forward with providing their older planes to Ukraine. That was accurate, as the U.S. government had been publicly stating this possibility for awhile before Binken said it.

In the end, I think they both didn't handle it well, Poland with their blind-siding of the U.S. with their announcement yesterday regarding sending the planes to the U.S. airforce base in Germany, and Blinken with putting Poland on the spot.

ETA All this is just my opinion, based on the MSM news coverage I have been watching carefully on this issue over the last week or so.
 
Simply Southern said:
NO. Poland came up with idea and is trying to sell it to the US, via the media. Nope, ain't having these planes.
Moo
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The talking about this so called deal, that isn't a deal, started already days ago, Ukrainian pilots did already go to pick up planes days ago, but returned home with empty hands...I'm not pro or against anybody...it's messed up...nobody's fault, besides this crazy guy Putin....I can only see countries desperately trying to make Putin stop.
 
Arkay said:
We are all here because we are frantic for the Ukrainians and we see Putin for the sociopathic monster that he is. We also all love our own countries, presumably.

<Teacher voice> please let’s not bicker among ourselves as to which NATO countries are right and which are wrong. That’s only going to get the thread shut down.

Personally I have very mixed emotions as to what should be done about a no-fly zone. On the one hand, it certainly seems to be the surest way to knock the Russians out of Ukraine. On the other hand, none of us do want an actual, probably nuclear, WWIII to emerge from this.

I do see comments in the news, from multiple countries, about not wanting to anger Putin because he will go to nukes. Obviously I understand that, but it’s also reminiscent of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler.

I’m very grateful that my grandparents emigrated from what is now Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, so I can enjoy a comfortable American life. I love my country. I can’t say all our presidents have been perfect..before I was born, FDR refused entry to a shipload of Jewish refugees trying to escape the Nazis, and sent them back to Europe where they were murdered…but I do believe all the Western democracies are trying to figure out how to save Ukraine while not enduring a nuclear war.

Decisions like this are way out of my powers of discernment. I’m just doing what I can to financially support Ukraine.

I love WS because we are from all over, and I learn a lot from my fellow posters. We all have our own points of view, but let’s not snipe at one another. We are all in anguish and frustrated, for sure, but we are on the same side; we support Ukraine and Zelenskyy.

@Vern I want to thank you and your son for your service to Canada, and anyone else here who is or has served in the military.

jmo
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I see us debating some issues, we can get hot and heavy, that's WS. We NEED to get to the bottom of these rumors/issues. I've posted a few times this morning as links keep getting brought up that have been debunked. WS has NEVER stood on rumor, ever. JMO
 
CSIDreamer said:
I see us debating some issues, we can get hot and heavy, that's WS. We NEED to get to the bottom of these rumors/issues. I've posted a few times this morning as links keep getting brought up that have been debunked. WS has NEVER stood on rumor, ever. JMO
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I agree...and news outlets that were days old....also very confusing.
 
I would really like us not turn against each other.....the beauty of this is....we are all very much involved, beautiful people from around the world.. but having different perspectives, coming from different countries. Please lets stay kind to each other...no matter were we are born...we are all having friends, family or whatever around the world and we are worried. Look at what binds us...not what divides us....sorry....just had to say this...let love be your religion.
 
Sundog said:
It seems to me that when U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken went on Face the Nation on Sunday, March 6th and was interviewed about his recent trip to Poland, that when he was asked about the whole discussion of whether or not Poland would be giving their old mig-29 fighter jets to Ukraine and how this would happen, Blinken said that as far as the U.S. is concerned, Poland has the "green light" to give these older jets to Ukraine, and in order to "backfill," the U.S. offered Poland some new fighter jets , but that this would take time, because it would have to go through Congress and the contract vetting process, etc.

Then I think that Poland felt "on the spot" since this interview was seen and discussed world wide, and so they made their own public statement about how they would handle the mig-29 jets so they could end up in Ukraine. This blind-sided the U.S. government, but the U.S. government had also blind-sided Poland by saying that they had the "green light" to move forward with the plan to supply these planes to Ukraine.

During the days and week prior to this development I was following this issue closely in the news, and could see that Poland was clearly uncomfortable about being pushed by NATO to get these planes to Ukraine, as they clearly didn't want to end up at war with Russia for this transaction. So I think Blinken got ahead of himself publicly with the narrative, and for Poland, these were just discussions.

It definitely is a case of passing the "hot potato" but I agree that it should never have been in the U.S.'s hands, or Poland's.

If other countries want to send these older fighter jets to Ukraine, it's up to them, but I hope that the U.S. stays out of it.
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Weren't they all originally put on the spot by Zelenskyy though?. I thought he was the one who announced publicly that Poland would be sending them fighter jets?, then Poland came out and said it wasn't true and then there was a bit of back and forth that has brought us to here.
VZ has been incredibly vocal in defence of his country,and in begging for any and all help (the man is a hero and I applaud him) he has also become quite frustrated and has tried to force NATO's hand quite a bit. So it's my opinion only that neither Poland or the USA started it!
 
Ukraine
Russia has admitted using conscripts in the war against Ukraine.
However, the Ministry of Defense in Moscow emphasized that this had not been approved by the leadership. According to the Tass agency, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that on the orders of President Vladimir Putin, the military prosecutor's office would investigate these cases and punish those responsible.

GT from live blog - news ticker :
Liveblog: ++ Moskau gibt Einsatz von Rekruten zu ++
 
Kiranerys said:
Weren't they all originally put on the spot by Zelenskyy though?. I thought he was the one who announced publicly that Poland would be sending them fighter jets?, then Poland came out and said it wasn't true and then there was a bit of back and forth that has brought us to here.
VZ has been incredibly vocal in defence of his country,and in begging for any and all help (the man is a hero and I applaud him) he has also become quite frustrated and has tried to force NATO's hand quite a bit. So it's my opinion only that neither Poland or the USA started it!
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Ukraine also started the Chernobyl meltdown hysteria. And the Red Cross symbol issue. Jmo

I'm not saying they aren't stressed out or such. But why turn this huge turmoil? It detracts from the main issues.

Everyone lose their minds over the Red Cross. Meanwhile, the Red Cross is trying desperately to evacuate civilians from a war zone.

Jmo
 
branmuffin said:
I think this article is probably one of the most important glimpses into the mindset of Putin. He's a murdering **** but he's also spiritually tied to the idea of a Russian civilization in the same way we don't question a Western civilization.

Putin Has a Grimly Absolute Vision of the ‘Russian World’
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Quite possibly, or also, possibly, it's a mindset he's trying to trigger in the Russian people.

It's always helpful, when you've been a dictator for decades, to encourage your populace (and your internal enemies), to see you as the defender of some kind of value system that makes you all feel special.

It's also important for leaders who are losing their grip on power to find an enemy - preferably a small and helpless one - to unite your people around you.

Whether Putin cares most about the destiny of Russia, or the destiny of Putin, is a question. IMO, dictators really only care about themselves, but that's just my opinion.
 
Simply Southern said:
Sounds like Poland was wanting anti battery stations and a deal was made.

I found it interesting US gives more money to NATO than all 29 other countries. The "fees" for NATO are 2% of national Gross National Product. That's not alot for a defense of a nation. Many of the countries are not paying the 2%.

The US and Germany provide 16% EACH to the cost of running NATO. That's 32% of total cost provided by two countries.

Nato summit: What does the US contribute?
The current agreed target for European Nato members is 2% of GDP on defence by 2024.

President Trump had urged the other countries in the alliance to increase that to 4% of GDP.

In 2020, 10 Nato countries (in addition to the US) reached or exceeded the 2% target - two more than in 2019 including for the first time, France and Norway.

The rest (including Germany, Italy and Spain) spent below that in 2020, even though they've all increased their spending as a percentage of GDP since 2014 (when the 2% target was agreed).

Germany indicated in 2019 that it wouldn't reach the 2% target until 2031.

Nato members also pledged that by 2024 at least 20% of their defence expenditure should go on acquiring and developing equipment.

On this measure, most Nato members in 2020 spent at least that proportion or more on equipment, although Germany and Canada still spent less than 20%.
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What's important today is that NATO countries focus on the original goals of NATO, and that NATO, rather than individual countries, is recognized for efforts to end the invasion of Ukraine.

Regarding NATO contributions:

"Notably, the data shows the United States has fallen behind Greece in proportional spending, contributing 3.52% of GDP compared to Greece's 3.82%.
...

Formed in the aftermath of the Second World War, NATO's original goals were to secure peace in Europe, promote co-operation among its members and counter the threat posed by the USSR, also known as the Soviet Union."​

NATO%20Spending%20estimate%20June%2021%20CREDIT%20NATO.JPG


Feb 24, 2022
NATO: Which countries pay their share on defence?
 
Bit of hope said:
I would really like us not turn against each other.....the beauty of this is....we are all very much involved, beautiful people from around the world.. but having different perspectives, coming from different countries. Please lets stay kind to each other...no matter were we are born...we are all having friends, family or whatever around the world and we are worried. Look at what binds us...not what divides us....sorry....just had to say this...let love be your religion.
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Well said!
 
Sundog said:
Yes.
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yes. yes.
Autocratic dictators are very powerful, and are always in the loooong game.

All countries will see this threat is different ways. We are not the same.

US Democracy is quite fragile right now. US leadership has been flirting with, dining with, making money with authoritarian principles and peoples for a long while now.

We are neither a strong Democracy, nor an united defender AGAINST Autocracy or Kleptocracy.
The US could easily go either way in the future. Either way...........

Of course jmo..... but I could probably attach a number of valid well researched accounts... but they would still be OPINIONS.of the probably future of the US.......

China is the elephant in the room, or on the earth....
 
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