Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #5

[RickshawFan]

Please do not continue to misstate the facts about the call record. I reposted the actual record already, recently.



He did NOT initiate a call to her, ever, after May 22. That is just false.

You have no way of knowing whether he actually called her back on May 30. She texted him she missed his call. You think that makes it true he called? She texted him all kinds of weird texts he didn't reply to, especially when she was most likely to just playing her accidental text game. Every other indication is that he didn't return her call.

Thanks for keeping the conversation on task with the facts.

 

[RickshawFan]

No there isn't, but isn't it a strange coincidence that the sex tape was about 40 minutes long(from 5 out of 7 tapes used to compile it)?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/jodi-arias-phone-sex-tape-shows-raunchy-relationship/story?id=18477130
"A raunchy 40-minute phone call..."

The Youtube video showing when it was played in court is 1:08:15, the tape itself was just over 33 minutes(from 5 out of the 7 tapes used to compile it).
[video=youtube;dsmg3nrYfCE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsmg3nrYfCE[/video]

You're thinking she played the tape in that call? Blackmail round #666?

 

[RickshawFan]

Just some random observations:

If 281129 was so devious to supposedly plant all this photographic evidence to make it look like they had sex on June 4th, how come she couldn't come up with a better cover story? We all know she ain't Einstein. I keep coming back to Occam's Razor on the sex/no sex issue.

I get the impression some posters here have no experience with a "love/hate" relationship..where the sex is the only thing keeping a person with someone they don't really want to be with anymore, or to stay in a toxic relationship just for the sex. Like couples that regularly fight and fight and fight and then have "the best make-up sex". If you've never experienced this type of relationship, you might not be able to understand how intoxicating the sex can be. I've been there; I know. The hormone Oxytocin, which is released during orgasm (and interestingly, breastfeeding) is responsible for the bonding effect between mother and baby, intimate partners, and social relationships. Hence the difficult and conflicting emotions that can arise when that bond is injured or broken, intentionally or not.

I also get the impression that some posters here have never dealt with any kind of addiction and perhaps don't understand the cycle of use and withdrawal and use again - just to make the withdrawal effects go away. How sick and tired one can become of that cycle and yet simultaneously feel hopeless of ever being able to break that cycle. Of hating the very thing you cannot tear yourself away from. Or how difficult it is to go "cold turkey". How high-risk the first few weeks of going cold turkey can be, and how important it is to stay away from high-risk situations that will take you back to using (like buddies you smoke or drink or drug with, or people you have sex with). How it really is an effort one day at a time. As a recovering addict, I've been a little surprised and insulted by the lack of compassion and understanding by some of the posts that seem to minimize the whole reality of addiction. As if acknowledging Travis's addictive cycle with 281129 is some sort of an insult to him. To me, all it says is he was human.

Actually, I think most posters here are familiar with addiction. The problem was that upthread, using the words "I'm addicted to" was getting confused with clinical addiction.

 

[RickshawFan]

Maybe because at least some here posting about it don't think he was "addicted" to her and have explained why? Maybe some believe it more accurate to say he was the inexperienced and vulnerable prey of a psychopath? Maybe it is the case some understand precisely what addiction is and are annoyed by its casual or inexact use here? Maybe some believe he was caught in a cycle with her earlier but had broken free?

I've read here or said here all of the above. And I don't see any lack of compassion at all in any of those responses. Quite the opposite, actually.


As for a better cover story. That sounds like Nurmi saying- if she really had gone to such lengths to hide her tracks, why would she have been so stupid as to save the gas can receipt?

Yet, she did and she did.

Why? Because she is a sociopath who THINKS her IQ is as great as Einstein's. And keeps acting on that belief, still, LOL.

You have expressed this more articulately than I could. I also don't see any ignorance or lack of compassion on the topic of addiction. I've noted the opposite from those who are trying to be precise about the language that is being used and what it might reflect.

 

[RickshawFan]

OK, I went back to the book thread and found this from Nurmi:


BK's entries now show last names and cities, btw. In the deposits that are listed from 12/12/12 to 4/13/13 this guy made the following donations (don't think he's the wealthy guy that had her in his will) $20, $20, $50, $15 & $20. Probably sent her what he could every week or so. Guy needs to get off the farm....

Hope4More, thanks for the LV info - I knew that name/city rang a bell!

IIRC the "wealthy guy that had her in his will" died recently and left everything to charity, nothing to Jodi.

 

[RickshawFan]

No it doesn't geevee, and you're welcome my dear. The other pic I have of her she is lying on the floor with legs partially in the air, looking backwards. So someone had to have been standing over her to capture the pic. The pics seem to appear a little more professional than others we have seen. What was she in to, I have guesses but no proof.... YET. :thinking:

Any guesses about what her trade name was? Maria? Braidy? Black widow spidie?

 

[TexMex]

Actually, I think most posters here are familiar with addiction. The problem was that upthread, using the words "I'm addicted to" was getting confused with clinical addiction.

Hi Rickshaw Fan
IMO there's no confusion. IIRC Travis was not a therapist. He used addiction to describe his relationship to Jodi. So did his friends as well as his family. It was how he, the victim in the case defined it, not us posters that matters IMO.

 

[TexMex]

IIRC the "wealthy guy that had her in his will" died recently and left everything to charity, nothing to Jodi.

IIRC he died but was not wealthy...and left nothing to her

 

[Hope4More]

Someone was looking for the pic of the killer posing with mans shirt on and a guys head in the pic.. here ya' go, and I also have another that some may not have seen before. Will post if anyone wants to see it. Sorry for posting her nasty pic, but found it in my files.


View attachment 90784

I've seen that pic before, but not the man's head down thar in the corner. Hmm. Wonder if this pic was part of a ......professional portfolio?

 

[b_lab7410]

Rickshawfan, Travis repeatedly said he was addicted to Arias. His own words are very strong evidence. His family and friends used addiction-like dependency terns. His behaviour is very strong evidence. The sex tape shows Travis tell her that despite everything, he is glad they started *advertiser censored***** Just before that sex tape, IIRC he was swearing he would never speak to her again if she wasn't truthful. Addiction isn't my term for how Travis felt about Arias. The words were repeatedly used by Travis. I believe him.

In regards to Travis’ gender, sexuality, and his ‘cycle of abuse’ – or at least his awareness of that as time progressed with Arias:

Travis had been abused as a child - early childhood. I don't think he understood, his actual addiction was to the cycle of abuse, or should I say, his central nervous system had been wired to perceive ‘lack of nurture,’ resentment, anger, or distaste as minimized to ‘deep down none of this is really that bad, I can handle this.’ There is some ‘Stockholm Syndrome,’ that develops here (bonding with your tormentor, even pitying them). He developed quite the shame and aversion to resolving conflict none the less. I don’t think this has much to do with sex. That’s just how these people handle high stress even after it’s long been gone. The problem is, how to identify it once it’s back, and in a different form? Every abuse victim will go through some type of crisis either once or multiple times in their lives. The people they come into contact with will confuse them. Their trust of self and others are not as they would be for ‘normal men and women.’ So Travis was either A) actually addicted to sex and/or her and was beyond repair or B) psychologically evolving and either going to set aside this distraction in his life and pursue a ‘marriage type’ or C) was evolving emotionally and going to find ANOTHER unhealthy partner/’addiction.’

Well we all read his comments, but let’s not forget, in his blog, and through MUCH of what we know of him; he ALSO said he had to get back on course of pursuing ‘the marriage type.’ He didn’t feel he was behaving as he should, he needed to get his act together to achieve happiness.

Quite frankly, JA has several disorders; poor guy pitied the devil and he didn’t understand initially. He was targeted by a psychopath. That confusion is what kept him coming back initially, without his realization at this point. You will have a difficult time with identifying charming psychopaths when you lived the life Travis had. He was sheltered within his Mormon community after a point, mind you. He forgot what ‘bad’ was like. Those earlier memories get largely pushed aside or associated to feelings ‘to never go through again,’ that’s what trauma does. JA knew that. That’s why Travis was always so easy on her.

Getting assaulted at age 6, deprived of nurture, the human mind just develops mental dysfunction associated to pain & feelings of hurt – into adulthood. He was not merely 'smacked around.' He was pummeled. You can turn your back, but the child recognizes they are in a very dire situation, again, the mind believes someone is literally going to kill you – incidentally or not – the awareness is there. Fight or flight. He was ‘lucky’ enough to survive battered syndrome. He would have needed therapy. He displayed signs of boundary, anger-identification, and self-awareness issues before. And let me tell you, from what I read about him and from him, those were not mere words of a man hell-bent on conforming to religion. There were PLENTY of Mormon males who felt Arias was wack and had no issue telling or thinking her so.

That is what messed with Travis’ mind. His 'addiction' was the cycle of abuse and emotional reconciliation over the very disturbing fact that his vulnerabilities were being taken advantage of by this female who claimed to be ‘so sweet’ and want him. I mean she played psychological games with his head that he didn’t even know about until months later when it hit him so… and I think it’s very important to bear in mind that this all started early on, with those letters to Sky Hughes. I mean, this girl was so crazy, he didn’t even know. He was being toyed with. I think towards the end, he put those letters into context. He finally knew where Sky was coming from, how exorbitant her games were and how dysfunctional with a capital D she really was. I think it’s unfair to say no man would eventually figure that out and eventually run scared. I mean, hello, look at that guy Bobby Juarez. That guy left his residence! She was capable of disturbing some muscly-guy even then.

I do agree with some up top comments about his sexual attraction not being one of the most conceivable ones, we are talking about a child abuse victim. They are not simply 'addicted to sex.' This goes beyond that, you will find that very common with both males and female victims. They are naïve, susceptible to predators – unless they become hyperaware – as many of them are also super-sensitive.

I don’t want to really get into my sources, but just some people I went to school with, worked with, and stories from individuals who ran a child-care pavilion I was employed with:

They turn to sex as a coping mechanism – at least one viable damaged relationship where the cycle continues with their partners – but this seems to be more about poor communication of feelings** more than anything. Sex is communication, to them, the way out of a frustrating situation gone wrong. They are naively under the presumption someone finally loves them for who they are, weaknesses and all. Their partner may also be a former victim of domestic abuse. Two damaged persons do not usually make it work, but the power dominant partner is VERY capable of violating the other's trust, psyche, and the sex will continue regardless. One may have developed into an abuser, whereas their partner, develops a natural immunity to anger and/or despises altercations of ANY kind. The predator/prey complex is really as simple to allocate as this.

That* IMO, was Travis. I do think his one-time experience was all he needed. He did call her a sociopath. Whatever he said, his mind was blowing off steam/finalizing his ‘relationship’ with her. He had repressed all those feelings. I think he instantaneously figured out she was a batterer – something he despised. I do not think he affiliated the title of 'lustful female' after this, the only thing he had to do now was move on with his life somehow and let her make something of her own. Because she literally destroyed him.

Remember when JA asked him to visit her ‘sing?’ He declined. She begged. She got nothing. Once the naivety within the child abuse victim comes to realization, MANY of them CAN move on. Hell, Deanna, loved him so. It depends on what state of mind they're in when reality hits. He was a big brother, had friends, experienced real emotions past what Arias could provide. If anyone could have moved on from Jodi’s antics, it would have been him. I see he was developing a real awareness, and he HAD to, he was struggling financially at this point. I mean why else did she go over there like some psycho-*itch? He rejected her, and she knew he was going to.

Anyhow, feeling unrelatable, using sex as a coping mechanism, detachment to strong emotions/commitment, these were Travis’s actual issues here. I don’t think him the ‘average male,’ in regards to ‘addiction’ because it sooo goes beyond that, again, ya’ll form your own opinions but I’m sorry, I’ve met too many people in his situation. Do they ever get a healthy relationship? It’s hard for them. But they don’t usually invite the pain in, and once it’s been categorized, they’ll break it off if it too closely wrecks them again. They are survivors of their original stories, after all. They don’t give you medals for surviving psychological warfare/torment.

 

[TexMex]

He had a history of NOT responding to her interventions to get contact. This had been true for months. If you look at the pattern of text messages, you'll see that it was Jodi who did most of the initiating, and often there would be no response.

It's also true that he'd begged her to leave Mesa. He'd told her in early May not to contact him again. Yet he was recorded in the sex tape recollecting certain sex acts they'd shared (working the booty)and their mutual admiration of KY, both of which appear in photo evidence at the trial. He also speaks about taking pictures (like he took on June 4) of her the next time they met.

All of this is pretty normal conversation between two consenting adults. But in the history of the relationship Travis would try and stop the sexual contact, then he's drawn back in.

It's this cycle/pattern/habit he's referring to IMO. He said he tried to stay away. But he can't

 

[Caylee Advocate]

IIRC the "wealthy guy that had her in his will" died recently and left everything to charity, nothing to Jodi.

The man who died from cancer within the last two months, D.A. had no wealth according to his family and left nothing to the butcheress. They (her family and "supporters") tried to claim he wanted her to be taken care of (even saying he had set it up so that JA would continue to get a check from him after his death) His children said that is absolutely a lie. He was barely getting by himself. In fact, he went to AZ to watch the trial and got stuck with no money to get home and had to take a bus home to Nebraska. At least that is what I have garnered from the back and forth between his family and others.

 

[Hope4More]

Maybe Dallin had to step over that bench??

Not the bench. He couldn't remember what, exactly, thought a pair of shoes and something(s) else. Not a huge mess or the like, just an obstacle he had to go around/sidestep.

(speculation alert). It's interesting to me only because this is TA's closet we're talking about, every pair of shoes on shelves, neatly lined up, jeans hung up...

I'm wondering, if shoes, were they sneakers? Like what he might wear going biking in the AM? And he took them off on his way in to take a shower?

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Any guesses about what her trade name was? Maria? Braidy? Black widow spidie?

Ummm, I have a few unmentionables. LMAO.

 

[Hope4More]

The man who died from cancer within the last two months, D.A. had no wealth according to his family and left nothing to the butcheress. They (her family and "supporters") tried to claim he wanted her to be taken care of (even saying he had set it up so that JA would continue to get a check from him after his death) His children said that is absolutely a lie. He was barely getting by himself. In fact, he went to AZ to watch the trial and got stuck with no money to get home and had to take a bus home to Nebraska. At least that is what I have garnered from the back and forth between his family and others.

Wanted her to be taken care of? LOL. I think that job's already been assigned to her prison keepers. For the rest of her "natural" life, to use the applicable but oh so ill-fitting legal term.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I've seen that pic before, but not the man's head down thar in the corner. Hmm. Wonder if this pic was part of a ......professional portfolio?

Yeah, she was featured in *advertiser censored* R US.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Wanted her to be taken care of? LOL. I think that job's already been assigned to her prison keepers. For the rest of her "natural" life, to use the applicable but oh so ill-fitting legal term.

I guess for her snackies. I haven't quite figured out the monthly checks it would take from him to her until the year 9999. LOL.

 

[TexMex]

Wanted her to be taken care of? LOL. I think that job's already been assigned to her prison keepers. For the rest of her "natural" life, to use the applicable but oh so ill-fitting legal term.

I'm sure in her warped brain she's living in a gated community. She thinks she has a staff. A maid to do her laundry weekly, a chef to prepare her meals.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I'm sure in her warped brain she's living in a gated community. She thinks she has a staff. A maid to do her laundry weekly, a chef to prepare her meals.

Yes, and she even has security staff, security cameras surrounding her enormous mansion. Oh, the good life. Sigh. Yet it's not on the level of Paris Hilton, lol. She referenced Paris Hilton to further enhance the sloppy pieced together "sex" tape. P.H.:sick: and sex in the same sentence somehow just seems wrong.

 

[Hope4More]

In regards to Travis’ gender, sexuality, and his ‘cycle of abuse’ – or at least his awareness of that as time progressed with Arias:

Travis had been abused as a child - early childhood. I don't think he understood, his actual addiction was to the cycle of abuse, or should I say, his central nervous system had been wired to perceive ‘lack of nurture,’ resentment, anger, or distaste as minimized to ‘deep down none of this is really that bad, I can handle this.’ There is some ‘Stockholm Syndrome,’ that develops here (bonding with your tormentor, even pitying them). He developed quite the shame and aversion to resolving conflict none the less. I don’t think this has much to do with sex. That’s just how these people handle high stress even after it’s long been gone. The problem is, how to identify it once it’s back, and in a different form? Every abuse victim will go through some type of crisis either once or multiple times in their lives. The people they come into contact with will confuse them. Their trust of self and others are not as they would be for ‘normal men and women.’ So Travis was either A) actually addicted to sex and/or her and was beyond repair or B) psychologically evolving and either going to set aside this distraction in his life and pursue a ‘marriage type’ or C) was evolving emotionally and going to find ANOTHER unhealthy partner/’addiction.’

Well we all read his comments, but let’s not forget, in his blog, and through MUCH of what we know of him; he ALSO said he had to get back on course of pursuing ‘the marriage type.’ He didn’t feel he was behaving as he should, he needed to get his act together to achieve happiness.

Quite frankly, JA has several disorders; poor guy pitied the devil and he didn’t understand initially. He was targeted by a psychopath. That confusion is what kept him coming back initially, without his realization at this point. You will have a difficult time with identifying charming psychopaths when you lived the life Travis had. He was sheltered within his Mormon community after a point, mind you. He forgot what ‘bad’ was like. Those earlier memories get largely pushed aside or associated to feelings ‘to never go through again,’ that’s what trauma does. JA knew that. That’s why Travis was always so easy on her.

Getting assaulted at age 6, deprived of nurture, the human mind just develops mental dysfunction associated to pain & feelings of hurt – into adulthood. He was not merely 'smacked around.' He was pummeled. You can turn your back, but the child recognizes they are in a very dire situation, again, the mind believes someone is literally going to kill you – incidentally or not – the awareness is there. Fight or flight. He was ‘lucky’ enough to survive battered syndrome. He would have needed therapy. He displayed signs of boundary, anger-identification, and self-awareness issues before. And let me tell you, from what I read about him and from him, those were not mere words of a man hell-bent on conforming to religion. There were PLENTY of Mormon males who felt Arias was wack and had no issue telling or thinking her so.

That is what messed with Travis’ mind. His 'addiction' was the cycle of abuse and emotional reconciliation over the very disturbing fact that his vulnerabilities were being taken advantage of by this female who claimed to be ‘so sweet’ and want him. I mean she played psychological games with his head that he didn’t even know about until months later when it hit him so… and I think it’s very important to bear in mind that this all started early on, with those letters to Sky Hughes. I mean, this girl was so crazy, he didn’t even know. He was being toyed with. I think towards the end, he put those letters into context. He finally knew where Sky was coming from, how exorbitant her games were and how dysfunctional with a capital D she really was. I think it’s unfair to say no man would eventually figure that out and eventually run scared. I mean, hello, look at that guy Bobby Juarez. That guy left his residence! She was capable of disturbing some muscly-guy even then.

I do agree with some up top comments about his sexual attraction not being one of the most conceivable ones, we are talking about a child abuse victim. They are not simply 'addicted to sex.' This goes beyond that, you will find that very common with both males and female victims. They are naïve, susceptible to predators – unless they become hyperaware – as many of them are also super-sensitive.

I don’t want to really get into my sources, but just some people I went to school with, worked with, and stories from individuals who ran a child-care pavilion I was employed with:

They turn to sex as a coping mechanism – at least one viable damaged relationship where the cycle continues with their partners – but this seems to be more about poor communication of feelings** more than anything. Sex is communication, to them, the way out of a frustrating situation gone wrong. They are naively under the presumption someone finally loves them for who they are, weaknesses and all. Their partner may also be a former victim of domestic abuse. Two damaged persons do not usually make it work, but the power dominant partner is VERY capable of violating the other's trust, psyche, and the sex will continue regardless. One may have developed into an abuser, whereas their partner, develops a natural immunity to anger and/or despises altercations of ANY kind. The predator/prey complex is really as simple to allocate as this.

That* IMO, was Travis. I do think his one-time experience was all he needed. He did call her a sociopath. Whatever he said, his mind was blowing off steam/finalizing his ‘relationship’ with her. He had repressed all those feelings. I think he instantaneously figured out she was a batterer – something he despised. I do not think he affiliated the title of 'lustful female' after this, the only thing he had to do now was move on with his life somehow and let her make something of her own. Because she literally destroyed him.

Remember when JA asked him to visit her ‘sing?’ He declined. She begged. She got nothing. Once the naivety within the child abuse victim comes to realization, MANY of them CAN move on. Hell, Deanna, loved him so. It depends on what state of mind they're in when reality hits. He was a big brother, had friends, experienced real emotions past what Arias could provide. If anyone could have moved on from Jodi’s antics, it would have been him. I see he was developing a real awareness, and he HAD to, he was struggling financially at this point. I mean why else did she go over there like some psycho-*itch? He rejected her, and she knew he was going to.

Anyhow, feeling unrelatable, using sex as a coping mechanism, detachment to strong emotions/commitment, these were Travis’s actual issues here. I don’t think him the ‘average male,’ in regards to ‘addiction’ because it sooo goes beyond that, again, ya’ll form your own opinions but I’m sorry, I’ve met too many people in his situation. Do they ever get a healthy relationship? It’s hard for them. But they don’t usually invite the pain in, and once it’s been categorized, they’ll break it off if it too closely wrecks them again. They are survivors of their original stories, after all. They don’t give you medals for surviving psychological warfare/torment.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

What I've always found most remarkable about Travis is how mentally healthy he was, given the extreme abuse he had experienced as a child.

By his own account he had real difficulty committing in relationships, and I imagine he could have used help understanding why that was.

But...Travis, on his own, gravitated towards healthy people as friends and love prospects. Even his first choice in love, as a very young man, was impeccable-- the incrediby lovely gentle Deanna.

By all accounts they genuinely loved each other, and he was in a serious relationship with her for years.

He was surrounded by good, decent, successful friends who loved him. IMO, the sociopath was an anomaly. He didn't seek her out, she latched onto him. She didn't show him her true self or he would have spit in her face or run in the other direction from the get go.

He was easy prey for a long time, but I agree with what (I think), you're saying, that after seeing her with mask-off, there is no way he'd trust her again or fall back into her hell.