Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

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JM writes in his book that the DT disclosed the forged pedo letters to him in June, 2010 (they were sent to Nurmi in April, 2010). He knew with that disclosure that the would likely be dropping the ninjas and going with self-defense, which she did, 3 weeks later.

JM began going through the pages of DT mitigation witness interviews shortly after the filing, including Darryl Brewer's, which is what led him to the gas can aha. So....
approximately, in July 2010.

would have had a much easier go of it if she hadn't delayed the trial. JM had so much time to collect evidence, so many ahas! He likely would have had a statement from Brewer either way, but those bonus months let some ideas simmer on the back burner until they were full cooked.
 
:eek:fftopic:

Thank you! If you want to see the love of my life - I've been posting pictures of him on Travis' Sidebar Friends:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?306270-Travis-Sidebar-Friends-3/page9

My posts start at #812... don't want to take away from this thread! :)


Niner, I am so very sorry to read of your loss. I just now am able to read the thread. It has been a struggle for the both of you and now he rests eternally. The pics you posted on Sidebar are something you will remember a lifetime. Though he is now at peace, you will have your memories to get you through. :grouphug:
 
Hey, how is our pup Shane doing?

Shane had X-rays done Monday and the vet said he joints looked good but there is a spot on his shoulder that concerned him as it could be the beginning of a bone tumor. It was a rough day for my puppy; took him 2 days to recover.
Tuesday after doing extensive reading on canine bone tumors and having 24 hrs to get myself over the spot on his shoulder, I called the vet and asked him if it was OSA (osteosarcoma) as if so it seems like essentially a death sentence. The vet said he wouldn't and couldn't say for sure it was OSA. He gave him vetprofen ad tramadol. So no diagnosis for certain. We are just going to watch to see if his limp worsens if so progress to prednisone (the vet was hesitant to give him this for some reason but said he will consider it if no improvement) and oxycodone if need be as if it is a bone tumor he wouldn't suggest we amputate nor chemo at his age. Negative for Lyme disease, alk phos normal (alkaline phosphatase would be elevated in bone disease).
He is still limping but not as badly as we limit his walks but he seems better with the tramadol. We just continue to love him and pamper him. He is lying in front of me now giving me his "we're in this together" look. I have been trying to stay optimistic but am giving him a lot more attention these past few days as he is such a beautiful boy.
Thank you for remembering TexMex. I haven't been here for a few days. If it is OSA apparently it spreads fast but our vet said he cannot say that definitively it is OSA but I don't want Shane to suffer at all. He certainly is comfortable right now. It's a wait and see situation.
 

It seems that there's an assumption going in this article that the rashes are all from one source. Rashes are probably not rare in an environment like Perryville, and there's not a whole lot else to do there except scratch and argue with your cellie. They very well could have several different causes. Heck, needs all that hemarrhoid cream: one source of itch right there.
 
H4M: I've been reading your glorious appeals exposition. Were you implying that Victoria Washington's withdrawal (for conflict of interest) was related to her statement that there might be problems with witness MM?
 
It seems that there's an assumption going in this article that the rashes are all from one source. Rashes are probably not rare in an environment like Perryville, and there's not a whole lot else to do there except scratch and argue with your cellie. They very well could have several different causes. Heck, needs all that hemarrhoid cream: one source of itch right there.

Agreed. It is probably due to a multitude of reasons - scabies (which make my skin crawl, no pun intended ), heat rash, etc.
Regarding health care I myself am a RN and have no desire to ever work in Corrections. I imagine the prison healthcare system is woefully understaffed more so than other healthcare providers. Unfortunately they can study the problem and make as many recommendations as they wish, but if they can't adequately staff the prison it isn't going to change. I bet that is AD C/Corizon's central issue. It is what it is, and I don't see a solution ever.
 
H4M: I've been reading your glorious appeals exposition. Were you implying that Victoria Washington's withdrawal (for conflict of interest) was related to her statement that there might be problems with witness MM?


( Thank you. I love learning about the law. Have never followed a case all the way through appeals; choosing this one because of my over familiarity with the case and trial. ;) )

About Washington. No, I think it's been fairly well established that she really did withdraw for an actual conflict of interest, relating to another of her clients. I highlighted her mention of "problems" with Matt McCartney's testimony because it's the only on the record statement I'm aware of that all but acknowledges MM couldn't be called as a witness because he'd be nailed by JM for perjury.

The screwed herself with those forged pedo letters. She manufactured evidence to support her claim of self-defense, but needed and counted on MM to "authenticate" the letters. When the letters were excluded because of her attempts to tamper with MM's August 8 pedo letter testimony, she lost her only "evidence" of the pedo lie that was the core of her self defense lie, was stuck with a "greatly weakened" case for self-defense, and, cherry on top--lost MM as the only "witness" who would have lied for her on the stand about TA's "abuse," seeing bruises, etc.

LOL. She has always been her own worst enemy.
 
Hope4More - She did indeed screw herself with those pedo forgeries. I find the timeline fascinating in relation to her interviews, such as the "No jury will ever convict me" and "You can mark my words on that one" fiasco.

[video=youtube;jaSD8tfbYlU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaSD8tfbYlU[/video]

Your thread on Appeals makes it easy to see at a glance how it all fits chronologically. Thank you.

Her smug arrogance never fails to irritate the hell out of me. Yet - often - her lies were badly timed and thought through.
 
( Thank you. I love learning about the law. Have never followed a case all the way through appeals; choosing this one because of my over familiarity with the case and trial. ;) )

About Washington. No, I think it's been fairly well established that she really did withdraw for an actual conflict of interest, relating to another of her clients. I highlighted her mention of "problems" with Matt McCartney's testimony because it's the only on the record statement I'm aware of that all but acknowledges MM couldn't be called as a witness because he'd be nailed by JM for perjury.

The screwed herself with those forged pedo letters. She manufactured evidence to support her claim of self-defense, but needed and counted on MM to "authenticate" the letters. When the letters were excluded because of her attempts to tamper with MM's August 8 pedo letter testimony, she lost her only "evidence" of the pedo lie that was the core of her self defense lie, was stuck with a "greatly weakened" case for self-defense, and, cherry on top--lost MM as the only "witness" who would have lied for her on the stand about TA's "abuse," seeing bruises, etc.

LOL. She has always been her own worst enemy.

There were a couple of things I found puzzling:

Why would VW be compelled to reveal that there was a problem with MM as a witness?

Is the timing such that VW is referring to MM telling the truth the first time [then contacted him about how he f-ed up] and when she said that there was a problem, that he was now lying? Or else, what problem would there have been? Couldn't the DT just have kept mum and not called him (which is what ended up happening)?

Or did VW have something entirely other on MM?

Or, was MM refusing to testify for the defense (I don't know how all this works)?

Also, how could the DT not have known about the magazines and what was in them? The timing had to be that the was caught out with the magazines and therefore she went pro per (presumably so she could "straighten out" MM without being recorded).

From the perspective of Estrella, the magazine codes were evidently a big infraction. The DT didn't know?

It appears that ALV submitted a report. That report was never produced, mentioned, consulted, at trial, IIRC. The cross proceeded from notes and verbals when JM questioned her in his office.

A report with redactions was referenced. That must be the ALV report? Why would there be redactions? Clearly, this is somewhat problematic, because JSS ordered that the redactions be restored and highlighted. In other words, she wasn't allowing the redacted version.

Did JM get to see that report? Or were the redactions to hide things from him in advance of the trial? So, this wasn't about prejudicial information going before the jury?

What exactly had been lying to her attorneys about for a whole year before she wrote the notes in the magazines? She'd probably lied about 1000 things!

I thought the magazines had been gifts from ALV, so now I'm confused about timing. The domestic abuse ruse came after the pedo letters?
 
There were a couple of things I found puzzling:

Why would VW be compelled to reveal that there was a problem with MM as a witness?

Is the timing such that VW is referring to MM telling the truth the first time [then contacted him about how he f-ed up] and when she said that there was a problem, that he was now lying? Or else, what problem would there have been? Couldn't the DT just have kept mum and not called him (which is what ended up happening)?

Or did VW have something entirely other on MM?

Or, was MM refusing to testify for the defense (I don't know how all this works)?

Also, how could the DT not have known about the magazines and what was in them? The timing had to be that the was caught out with the magazines and therefore she went pro per (presumably so she could "straighten out" MM without being recorded).

From the perspective of Estrella, the magazine codes were evidently a big infraction. The DT didn't know?

It appears that ALV submitted a report. That report was never produced, mentioned, consulted, at trial, IIRC. The cross proceeded from notes and verbals when JM questioned her in his office.

A report with redactions was referenced. That must be the ALV report? Why would there be redactions? Clearly, this is somewhat problematic, because JSS ordered that the redactions be restored and highlighted. In other words, she wasn't allowing the redacted version.

Did JM get to see that report? Or were the redactions to hide things from him in advance of the trial? So, this wasn't about prejudicial information going before the jury?

What exactly had been lying to her attorneys about for a whole year before she wrote the notes in the magazines? She'd probably lied about 1000 things!

I thought the magazines had been gifts from ALV, so now I'm confused about timing. The domestic abuse ruse came after the pedo letters?


1. The magazines weren’t gifts from ALV, ALV wasn’t hired yet.

2. The claimed abuse fairly early on. According to DeMarte, the reported numerous incidents to Dr. Sheryl Karp, far many more than she did to ALV.

3. The lying for a year and coded magazines. Good question. One year from intercepted magazines on August 4, 2010 would date back to July or August 2009. The 10 forged pedo letters weren’t sent until April 2010. Nurmi and Washington replaced the ’s first attorneys in August 2009, and as far as we know, she was still claiming ninjas for a while past that, since Nurmi supposedly had to talk her out of that non-defense.

One of the pedo letters referenced TA viewing *advertiser censored* on a computer, which did contradict her subsequent story of *advertiser censored* on a paper falling chaotically to the floor smack at her feet.

If computer vs. paper was the contradiction, then either she had been peddling the pedo lie to her attorneys for many months before forging the letters and was chastising MM for the computer vs. paper *advertiser censored*, or she was telling him he had ****ed up for something else she’d written in the letters that didn’t have to do with *advertiser censored*…perhaps another broken finger story, who knows.

(She told Karp that TA broke her finger out of rage in February 2008 when she was fired from Mimi’s, not on January 22, 2008 about pedo and when that paper didn’t fall to the floor. Also, IIRC, the either initially told ALV computer not paper, or ALV noticed that Samuels’ or Karp’s notes said computer but the had told her paper).

4. I know the DT acted surprised when JM whipped out the coded magazines at trial, but IMO, for the reasons you state, there is no way they didn’t know about the codes before the August 8, 2010 pedo letter evidentiary hearing.

JM disclosed the magazines to them as evidence before August 8. They would have known about JM’s subpoena (on the Superior Court’s record), and why in heck would he have wanted and needed a subpoena to intercept a couple of irrevelant magazines sent to her?

5. The timing WAS she was caught trying to witness tamper (August 4) and then went pro per (August 8). The coded messages implied her attorneys would be running the show on August 8. Something sure did seem to change in a very short time.

JM has all but said MM was to testify on the 8th then didn’t. Nurmi has said MM was his one “good” mitigation witness but couldn’t testify because of matters relating to the pedo letters. It seems pretty clear MM was to testify about the pedo letters on the 8th.a

Why didn’t he? And why did she go pro per? Dunno, can only speculate. Someone must have warned MM (in whatever manner) about testifying. Could have been either JM, the DT, or Ann Campbell (co-smuggler) if he was warned before August 8, or the herself after she went pro per the morning of the 8th.

JM went first on the 8th, the didn’t humiliate herself until the next day when she stumbled through questioning her fellow criminal Estrella inmate. Perhaps they didn’t have enough time to adequately rehearse? Perhaps they had only one evening, after the spoke with MM on the morning of the 8th, but didn’t return to Estrella from court until early evening, at the earliest?

Why did she go pro per? It may have been just so she could speak directly to MM. Or, it may have been because her attorneys finally told her, after being presented with evidence of her attempted witness tampering, that the pedo letters wouldn’t fly, and she refused to accept that as final.

The contraband evidence that she had been practicing forging TA’s handwriting had been turned up weeks earlier, and JM had disclosed it to the DT. Nurmi has said he became suspicious about the letters’ authenticity at that point, but he doesn’t seem to have acted on his suspicions, for whatever reason, and didn’t stop fighting JM about the letters’ exclusion until August 15, 2010.

6. Why did Washington tell Judge Duncan about “problems” with MM’s testimony? Dunno. One guess, and only that, is she might have been covering her own derriere. Suborning of perjury by attorneys is a big no-no-no-no. Maybe she was skittery about getting too close to that line?
 
Hope4More - She did indeed screw herself with those pedo forgeries. I find the timeline fascinating in relation to her interviews, such as the "No jury will ever convict me" and "You can mark my words on that one" fiasco.

[video=youtube;jaSD8tfbYlU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaSD8tfbYlU[/video]

Your thread on Appeals makes it easy to see at a glance how it all fits chronologically. Thank you.

Her smug arrogance never fails to irritate the hell out of me. Yet - often - her lies were badly timed and thought through.

Soooo, since you posted the video, I got sucked back in to watching her own special brand of narcissism. I had somewhat forgotten what a pathological liar she is, and how well she could sell a story. And the better the sell, the more likely it's all a lie. It still both fascinates and sickens me...
 
I'm wishing we had a new thread for appeals discussions. We seem to have moved to a different perspective on this subject.
 
I just read JSS ruling regarding ALV's report. I have always liked JSS' rulings, because she is succinct and to the point and she seems to get at the heart of the matter. They are very no-nonsense and well-written. Very clear (unlike KN's which bumble about).

Am I correct in thinking ALV's report was not part of the guilt phase? That for some reason, JM didn't get it? There was no report, correct? And we all wondered at the time why there was no report? As it was, she was unprofessional enough to toss in information that even JSS considered "work product". And then, there seem to have been statements in that report (or information consulted) that they didn't want JM to know about. JM's cross of ALV seemed to reflect only what he learned when he met with ALV "in his office. Do you remember that?" And then the contradictions between what she said there and what she said on the witness stand.

Begs the question: what was in the report that compromised 's position, and what was in the report that compromised ALV's testimony. It had to be both, I'm thinking, just because of what DT was trying to get away with that JSS didn't buy.

Also, there may have been parts of that report (that was never turned over?) that contradicted what ALV said on the stand, and this was part of the picture of perjury.

Would JM have to have seen the report and received it if it was part of the court record? Or did the DT hand it over to JSS in confidence (whatever the term is), and he never actually saw it, even after the redacted portions were restored?

Also, I hadn't realized that ALV accumulated all those hours with between, like July and December 2012, and that she came to team after DeMarte. I find this fascinating, as it means that DeMarte's report didn't reflect anything in ALV's. (Or was she not allowed to see ALV's? JM could have told her what was in there, surely?).

Then, you mention (July 18?) in your exposition that JM wants the "whole file". Is that ALV's whole file? Or whose? There was already an issue with what ALV was doing?

Almost the moment ALV gets in the mix, there's something hinky going on with her report/notes/what she read, etc.

I actually find JM's cross of ALV to be genius: I have watched it several times, and think it's one of the most compelling episodes in this trial.

I am astounded at what a con-artist ALV is. You have to believe she has 0 critical thinking skills or she's lying through her teeth and just saying whatever she wants to say. I would guess she doesn't have 0 critical thinking skills. This was a woman who proceeded with guile, deception, and malice. And then freaked when she got caught out, even on basics.
 
1. The magazines weren’t gifts from ALV, ALV wasn’t hired yet.

2. The claimed abuse fairly early on. According to DeMarte, the reported numerous incidents to Dr. Sheryl Karp, far many more than she did to ALV.

3. The lying for a year and coded magazines. Good question. One year from intercepted magazines on August 4, 2010 would date back to July or August 2009. The 10 forged pedo letters weren’t sent until April 2010. Nurmi and Washington replaced the ’s first attorneys in August 2009, and as far as we know, she was still claiming ninjas for a while past that, since Nurmi supposedly had to talk her out of that non-defense.

One of the pedo letters referenced TA viewing *advertiser censored* on a computer, which did contradict her subsequent story of *advertiser censored* on a paper falling chaotically to the floor smack at her feet.

If computer vs. paper was the contradiction, then either she had been peddling the pedo lie to her attorneys for many months before forging the letters and was chastising MM for the computer vs. paper *advertiser censored*, or she was telling him he had ****ed up for something else she’d written in the letters that didn’t have to do with *advertiser censored*…perhaps another broken finger story, who knows.

(She told Karp that TA broke her finger out of rage in February 2008 when she was fired from Mimi’s, not on January 22, 2008 about pedo and when that paper didn’t fall to the floor. Also, IIRC, the either initially told ALV computer not paper, or ALV noticed that Samuels’ or Karp’s notes said computer but the had told her paper).

4. I know the DT acted surprised when JM whipped out the coded magazines at trial, but IMO, for the reasons you state, there is no way they didn’t know about the codes before the August 8, 2010 pedo letter evidentiary hearing.

JM disclosed the magazines to them as evidence before August 8. They would have known about JM’s subpoena (on the Superior Court’s record), and why in heck would he have wanted and needed a subpoena to intercept a couple of irrevelant magazines sent to her?

5. The timing WAS she was caught trying to witness tamper (August 4) and then went pro per (August 8). The coded messages implied her attorneys would be running the show on August 8. Something sure did seem to change in a very short time.

JM has all but said MM was to testify on the 8th then didn’t. Nurmi has said MM was his one “good” mitigation witness but couldn’t testify because of matters relating to the pedo letters. It seems pretty clear MM was to testify about the pedo letters on the 8th.a

Why didn’t he? And why did she go pro per? Dunno, can only speculate. Someone must have warned MM (in whatever manner) about testifying. Could have been either JM, the DT, or Ann Campbell (co-smuggler) if he was warned before August 8, or the herself after she went pro per the morning of the 8th.

JM went first on the 8th, the didn’t humiliate herself until the next day when she stumbled through questioning her fellow criminal Estrella inmate. Perhaps they didn’t have enough time to adequately rehearse? Perhaps they had only one evening, after the spoke with MM on the morning of the 8th, but didn’t return to Estrella from court until early evening, at the earliest?

Why did she go pro per? It may have been just so she could speak directly to MM. Or, it may have been because her attorneys finally told her, after being presented with evidence of her attempted witness tampering, that the pedo letters wouldn’t fly, and she refused to accept that as final.

The contraband evidence that she had been practicing forging TA’s handwriting had been turned up weeks earlier, and JM had disclosed it to the DT. Nurmi has said he became suspicious about the letters’ authenticity at that point, but he doesn’t seem to have acted on his suspicions, for whatever reason, and didn’t stop fighting JM about the letters’ exclusion until August 15, 2010.

6. Why did Washington tell Judge Duncan about “problems” with MM’s testimony? Dunno. One guess, and only that, is she might have been covering her own derriere. Suborning of perjury by attorneys is a big no-no-no-no. Maybe she was skittery about getting too close to that line?

BBM: Bingo! Raging narcissist that she is, of course she assumed that her attorneys were stupid and that she could single-handedly game the system. Narcissists typically regard such social norms as rules and laws as beneath them, and only for "little people"--not them. Hence the justice system is simply that--a system to be gamed by their superior selves.

I've a question: what was her response (or lie--same diff) when JM confronted her with the coded magazines? I can't for the life of me remember.
 
Soooo, since you posted the video, I got sucked back in to watching her own special brand of narcissism. I had somewhat forgotten what a pathological liar she is, and how well she could sell a story. And the better the sell, the more likely it's all a lie. It still both fascinates and sickens me...

I agree. It's fascinating to watch a psychopath lie. Though no sane person would believe her, she smugly, calmly persists - smirking duper's delight signals throughout. It's repulsive.

The other point about this video relates to timing and I was basing my response around Hope4More's appeal points.The Inside Edition tape is from 2008. I speculate that she had either written some of the false pedo letters by then or was in the process or planning to. She may have begun as early as before her arrest when she had weeks of free time. That's what she meant by "No jury will ever convict me' arrogance. Like her 'genius' murder master plan, she started out supremely over confident of success. The pedo letters were then documented in April 2010. What happened between that video and then is interesting. MM's role also a subject of much speculation. Her lies are so brazenly shameless.

Arias should have said, "No jury will ever be convinced by me".
 
BBM: Bingo! Raging narcissist that she is, of course she assumed that her attorneys were stupid and that she could single-handedly game the system. Narcissists typically regard such social norms as rules and laws as beneath them, and only for "little people"--not them. Hence the justice system is simply that--a system to be gamed by their superior selves.

I've a question: what was her response (or lie--same diff) when JM confronted her with the coded magazines? I can't for the life of me remember.

Her response is here, from around 15 minutes in:

[video=youtube;-ALPmpUwvUk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ALPmpUwvUk[/video]

Narcissistic on a monumental scale but clearly ready for the question, not phased. Frozen mask of smug indifference pushed shamelessly forward.
 
I just read JSS ruling regarding ALV's report. I have always liked JSS' rulings, because she is succinct and to the point and she seems to get at the heart of the matter. They are very no-nonsense and well-written. Very clear (unlike KN's which bumble about).

Am I correct in thinking ALV's report was not part of the guilt phase? That for some reason, JM didn't get it? There was no report, correct? And we all wondered at the time why there was no report? As it was, she was unprofessional enough to toss in information that even JSS considered "work product". And then, there seem to have been statements in that report (or information consulted) that they didn't want JM to know about. JM's cross of ALV seemed to reflect only what he learned when he met with ALV "in his office. Do you remember that?" And then the contradictions between what she said there and what she said on the witness stand.

Begs the question: what was in the report that compromised 's position, and what was in the report that compromised ALV's testimony. It had to be both, I'm thinking, just because of what DT was trying to get away with that JSS didn't buy.

Also, there may have been parts of that report (that was never turned over?) that contradicted what ALV said on the stand, and this was part of the picture of perjury.

Would JM have to have seen the report and received it if it was part of the court record? Or did the DT hand it over to JSS in confidence (whatever the term is), and he never actually saw it, even after the redacted portions were restored?

Also, I hadn't realized that ALV accumulated all those hours with between, like July and December 2012, and that she came to team after DeMarte. I find this fascinating, as it means that DeMarte's report didn't reflect anything in ALV's. (Or was she not allowed to see ALV's? JM could have told her what was in there, surely?).

Then, you mention (July 18?) in your exposition that JM wants the "whole file". Is that ALV's whole file? Or whose? There was already an issue with what ALV was doing?

Almost the moment ALV gets in the mix, there's something hinky going on with her report/notes/what she read, etc.

I actually find JM's cross of ALV to be genius: I have watched it several times, and think it's one of the most compelling episodes in this trial.

I am astounded at what a con-artist ALV is. You have to believe she has 0 critical thinking skills or she's lying through her teeth and just saying whatever she wants to say. I would guess she doesn't have 0 critical thinking skills. This was a woman who proceeded with guile, deception, and malice. And then freaked when she got caught out, even on basics.


ALV never wrote a report. The redacted and unredacted access refers to her 100 pages of notes. (Just checked what I typed on appeals chronology in appeals thread. Sorry for the confusion - used both "notes" and "report" in that section, but definitely only notes were being referred to).

My guess is the DT redacted pesky little details like ALV's occasional mention of discrepancies in the 's lies. Like, paper vs. computer.

JM definitely had access to the unredacted version.
 
Random thought here.

When I first heard about this case I saw her last name and (in my mind) I pronounced it in the Spanish way. I was tickled when Juan Martinez pronounced it that way, too. It must have irked her because something caused Nurmi to ask her -- right off the bat -- when she was on the witness stand, how she pronounced her name, which is how it became "Air-E-Us." Not sure if JM intended to get her goat or if he was just pronouncing her name as it is normally pronounced, but I like that she was offended. :)
 
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