Separating FACT from fiction

[anne11]

Looking through the items listed in the search warrants and came upon "My Science project" from BR's room does anyone have more information on this

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Looking through the items listed in the search warrants and came upon "My Science project" from BR's room does anyone have more information on this

Just that it was listed on the search warrant. If I had to guess why, it was probably for writing samples.

This is interesting, though:

(From Court TV transcript 10/25/00)

We went to Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, the housekeeper, and when we asked her this she said, oh yeah, she said, Patsy told me she was ambidextrous. I've seen her brush her hair with her left hand. I've seen her paint with her left hand. I once saw her work on a science project with Burke, JonBenet's brother, where she wrote numbers and letters with her left hand. She is absolutely ambidextrous.

 

[BoldBear]

I'm years late to the party on this. I've read this thread and noticed the disagreement about the sexual abuse. This thread has also veered-off of Facts/Not Facts.

The fact stands that JBR was sexually abused the night of her death. It was assumed to be a part of the staging of her death. There is also evidence that she may have been sexually abused days before her death. I have no interest in restarting that argument. Assuming that she was sexually abused days before her death, there are three possibilities:

1) The murderer was the one who sexually abused her days before.
2) The murderer wasn't the one who abused her days before but knew about the previous sexual abuse.
3) The murderer wasn't aware of previous sexual abuse.

In any case, the sexual abuse was part of the staging for the murder. It could have also been an attempt to cover-up previous molestation by doing so much damage that the coroner would overlook previous damage. And finally it could have actually been sexual abuse for the gratification of the murderer.

That leaves a lot of possibilities open. Forgive me for saying this, but there's a chance that previous sexual abuse may have not been the reason for the murder. I'm not advocating any position here except that all possibilities are in play until this is solved. And since it's been 18 years, it probably won't be solved.

 

[Tawny]

Could we add that it is FACT that the Ramseys were indicted by a Grand Jury and what their charges were?

 

[Tricia]

Could we add that it is FACT that the Ramseys were indicted by a Grand Jury and what their charges were?

Yes we certainly can. I have a list of things I am working on and will add this to the list.

Thank you Tawny.

 

[Tawny]

Thanks Tricia!

 

[ninaskids]

1. What sort of rumors/speculations did you hear initially?
2. What sort of facts were presented? What about suspects?
3. What was your gut instinct the Ramsey's or an intruder?
4. Did you base your suspicions on fact or fiction?
5. Has your conclusion changed over time? If so, based on what facts?

1. At first just the facts, for the first few days. But it was all over the tabloids with pics of her in pageants and left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

2. Again, the facts, but also a LOT of speculation by the public on talk radio and on talk tv. I watched Fox a lot for callers and they all had theories.

3. My gut told me right off that PR did it accidentally because of her bed wetting. But this was a few days into it, once the media started to report the pullups in the hall. It was obvious that JB wet her bed at night and since they were all askew from the cabinet, it looked like PR had reached the end of her rope and just pulled them out. Then got enraged at having to clean up JB everynite and it escalated.

4. There was very little fiction in the story. Everthing reported had some basis in fact!! You couldn't have made this up, it was so weird.

5. My idea that it was PR did change after a few weeks, because a man called in to a FOX talk show and said the parents covered it up because the son did it.
He didn't think either parent would keep on covering for the other parent but they would work together for the brother.
Then things came out about BR that were strange. And then the news that his medical records were SEALED by the court, even med records from birth. Now why in the world would they have to do that? What could be in his records? Only something incriminating. Perhaps an anger issue, or who knows?
Jealousy toward JB?

I think that whoever did it, PR or BR, it was an accident that was so shocking to Patsy she literally left the earth mentally. She couldn't cope. JR must have been asleep. I can't see him not immediately calling 911 and reporting what it was an ACCIDENT. But PR may have sent BR to bed, to decide what to do.
Now none of this would have happened if jB would have awakened to any extent. Then 911 would get called.

I believe now that JB was nearly dead from the head injury and could not be roused so PR thought she had been killed and she covered it up.
Gave BR something to make him sleep? It is obvious from LA report on JR that morning, that he found the body around 10? and came up in shock and then when allowed to search around 1, John miraculously knew right where to go. Yeah right, wasn't that lucky?

So either way PR did not call it in, she covered it up and she was the most guilty.
No matter how it happened, no one in that town would have blamed BR or PR for an accident. It would have been passed over as a tragedy and the family move on. But she kept silent.

 

[sunnylilone]

Hi there, I've been visiting this site for months now and I finally joined...greetings fellow websleuthers!

Okay so I was born in 1991 so obviously I was very young when the murder of JBR occurred. I remember hearing about the murder, seeing those tabloids and magazines in the grocery store, my parents talking about it, etc.

A few questions to help me get a better understanding:

1. What sort of rumors/speculations did you hear initially?
2. What sort of facts were presented? What about suspects?
3. What was your gut instinct the Ramsey's or an intruder?
4. Did you base your suspicions on fact or fiction?
5. Has your conclusion changed over time? If so, based on what facts?

I was fairly young at the time, 11 or 12..I remember seeing some National Enquirer an odd aunt had brought over and left. It had photos of JB's bedroom, and it talked about how her mother had killed her in a fit of rage.

I remember the article highlighted certain items in her room, like body lotion and makeup, commenting that she was far too young to be in need of such things, which I found odd, bc being a young girl myself at the time, I remember always being into lotions, makeup, perfumes, nailpolish..all those girly things. At the time, I thought it was silly that they had given her mom such a hard time, and I didn't really buy into the accusations. My gut instinct was some weirdo creep had done something I didn't even wanna think about the little girl.

The next time I really heard more about it was when I was a teenager, maybe 15, and I watched the made for tv movie (parts of it) bc my parents had it on. I immediately thought the parents seemed very guilty, and pretty much decided they were. I had not been researching the case, and all of my suspicions were based on random things I happened to come across.

My biggest fear as a child was being kidnapped. I was almost paranoid about it. As I became a mother myself, my fear has become someone taking my child from me, so I feel deeply towards missing children. I've begun heavily researching certain cases, including this one. This one, maybe too much. My opinion isn't completely nailed down, but the more and more I research, the majority of the evidence has seemed to point to BR. One of the only things (that I can think of now) that trips me up is actually the one thing that most people use as their reason for believing his guilt/involvement: the enhanced 911 call, which I have listened to with amazing headphones.

I greatly researched the interior and exterior of the house, the neighborhood, the back alley..sat down one night and mentally played out what I think realistically happened (my personal BR theory) moment by moment, and everything made the best sense....until I got to the damn 911 call.

Although it's clear BR is on it, that is my entire problem. If BR is truly asking questions like "well, what did you find?" or "where did you find her?"..the fact that he is asking these questions means the parents didn't seem to have extensively grilled him. Yet, they had already gone to great lengths to cover everything up (if you believe they did so). The ransom note was already written and in PR's hands. Why do all this cover up to protect your child without very first screaming "Burke?! What did you do?! Why did you do this? What happened?" BR on the 911 call sounds clueless as to what his parents know.

So now...I'm somewhat back at square one :/ Also after learning there is actually a blue line connecting the marks on her body making them consistent with a taser. I had always believed one wasn't used. I had become pretty convinced the marks were most likely made by the ends of train set tracks. I have a hard time believing any of the Ramsey's would have used a taser.

Man, I really didn't wanna be an IDI, but I'm not sure where to go from here. (funny tho, that it was my gut instinct as a child) If I had to take a stance, BR is still good for it in many ways. If it's not him or LHP, I think I'd have to go with an unknown. Although, I still have questions about JMK..don't laugh!

 

[sunnylilone]

The parents' touch DNA certainly could have transferred to JB's clothing. It is suspicious to note that it was never mentioned whether any R's touch DNA was present. Patsy claimed she put the longjohns on JB at bedtime. She would have HAD to touch them, and in the very spots the other DNA was found (waistband and legs) to pull them on her. And JR was SEEN by Det. Arndt holding JB with his hands around her waist as he carried her in an upright position from the basement. His touch DNA HAD to be there. Yet none was noted. Was it because it was never tested for? Or did the DA's office KNOW it was there and refused to release the information? BOTH parents' DNA HAD to have been there.
Touch DNA belonging to Patsy and BR was found on the bloodstained pink Barbie nightie that was on top of the white blanket she was found wrapped in. Patsy's is not surprising- though it may indicate that Patsy took that pink nightie OFF JB when it got bloodstained, it is not possible to prove that it didn't happen innocently. Every mother handles her kids' clothes. But BR's touch DNA on that nightie is harder to explain innocently.
Yes- the parents lived in the house and their DNA and fibers etc are expected to be there BUT the presence of their fibers and prints on items intimately connected to the crime, such as the tape, cord, panties, paint tote simply have no innocent explanation, IMO.

I think the same is true of bowl of pineapple. Only BR and PR prints are found. It's likely after being washed, PR had put the dish away. I'd be very interested in an explanation of BR's prints being on the dish, and am stunned I have yet to see one. I also find the glass with the teabag in it interesting. Seems like something a child who didn't know how to make tea would put together. I believe my first attempt was similar.

 

[OliviaG1996]

I was fairly young at the time, 11 or 12..I remember seeing some National Enquirer an odd aunt had brought over and left. It had photos of JB's bedroom, and it talked about how her mother had killed her in a fit of rage.

I remember the article highlighted certain items in her room, like body lotion and makeup, commenting that she was far too young to be in need of such things, which I found odd, bc being a young girl myself at the time, I remember always being into lotions, makeup, perfumes, nailpolish..all those girly things. At the time, I thought it was silly that they had given her mom such a hard time, and I didn't really buy into the accusations. My gut instinct was some weirdo creep had done something I didn't even wanna think about the little girl.

The next time I really heard more about it was when I was a teenager, maybe 15, and I watched the made for tv movie (parts of it) bc my parents had it on. I immediately thought the parents seemed very guilty, and pretty much decided they were. I had not been researching the case, and all of my suspicions were based on random things I happened to come across.

My biggest fear as a child was being kidnapped. I was almost paranoid about it. As I became a mother myself, my fear has become someone taking my child from me, so I feel deeply towards missing children. I've begun heavily researching certain cases, including this one. This one, maybe too much. My opinion isn't completely nailed down, but the more and more I research, the majority of the evidence has seemed to point to BR. One of the only things (that I can think of now) that trips me up is actually the one thing that most people use as their reason for believing his guilt/involvement: the enhanced 911 call, which I have listened to with amazing headphones.

I greatly researched the interior and exterior of the house, the neighborhood, the back alley..sat down one night and mentally played out what I think realistically happened (my personal BR theory) moment by moment, and everything made the best sense....until I got to the damn 911 call.

Although it's clear BR is on it, that is my entire problem. If BR is truly asking questions like "well, what did you find?" or "where did you find her?"..the fact that he is asking these questions means the parents didn't seem to have extensively grilled him. Yet, they had already gone to great lengths to cover everything up (if you believe they did so). The ransom note was already written and in PR's hands. Why do all this cover up to protect your child without very first screaming "Burke?! What did you do?! Why did you do this? What happened?" BR on the 911 call sounds clueless as to what his parents know.

So now...I'm somewhat back at square one :/ Also after learning there is actually a blue line connecting the marks on her body making them consistent with a taser. I had always believed one wasn't used. I had become pretty convinced the marks were most likely made by the ends of train set tracks. I have a hard time believing any of the Ramsey's would have used a taser.

Man, I really didn't wanna be an IDI, but I'm not sure where to go from here. (funny tho, that it was my gut instinct as a child) If I had to take a stance, BR is still good for it in many ways. If it's not him or LHP, I think I'd have to go with an unknown. Although, I still have questions about JMK..don't laugh!

One of my theories on why BR asked, "Well, what did you find?" is that it's possible BR overheard one or both of his parents talking about a cover-up when all of this started. Maybe he heard the Rs saying they couldn't find anything to stage the scene to make it look like an intruder did this, so when BR hears PR calling 9-1-1, he knew that they had found something to stage the scene and he was curious as to what it was they had found.

Another theory could be that since BR was likely sent to bed after the Rs found JBR unconscious, he wasn't expecting them to "find" a ransom note so he could've overheard PR saying she found something, but he didn't hear what it was.

I think the marks found on JBR's back are from the train tracks, too. I don't really know why some put faith in the "blue line" found between the two marks because in the photo below, there are blue lines on another part of JBR's back. My guess is that they are veins (I'm not a medical expert, don't take my word for it!)

WARNING: AUTOPSY PHOTO BELOW



You may need to look closely, but they're there.

 

[BOESP]

The blue lines aren't from a stun gun since they don't make "blue" lines or any other lines for that matter. I've never figured out why Smit made such a statement.

ETA: link with more stun gun information

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/02lrams.html

 

[BOESP]

Just a FYI. Here's a link to most (if not all) of The Daily Camera articles on JonBenet. The last link on the page goes to even earlier articles.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/

 

[1&2&3]

I have never looked at her autopsy pictures. Just seeing this one, and knowing about the trauma to the head, it looks like someone went into overkill with this child.
I am just assuming, are those two holes from the end of a train track section being poked into her back?

I have never thought an intruder was in the Ramsey house. It was between BR and PR with me finally deciding on PR. After seeing the abuse on this child, JR had to have awakened or been awakened by PR to set the cover up in motion. He was too calm upon finding his beautiful daughter in this shape not to have known previously about her.

 

[sunnylilone]

BR has always made the most sense to me. In regards to the blue line I mentioned, it's fairly new info to me, since I've never been interested in anything Smit has ever had to say, so I haven't done much research, but it made sense when I heard it. Wish I knew more about BR and his personality. I have some friends who went to school with him, and I'm a DJ here in Indy..I've always kinda hoped to see him out at some point, kinda sad, lol. Know one seems to know much about him.

 

[GHTYKUYJ]

Decomposition starts in less than half an hour, and that odor begins in as little as 3-4 hours with a body indoors, even in a cool basement.

 

[Gabby66]

Hello, I've been here before (in another thread). I recently ran across an old book I'd read about this case, as I was cleaning my storage room, which prompted me to come here for updates today. I'm sorry if this has been posed already, but I'm curious about something. I've heard that BR wouldn't have been charged with any crime, since he was under 10. So what would happen if it was already determined he was guilty? What if he even perhaps admitted it, or his parents did? That information couldn't be leaked, correct? Is it then at all possible that the case could already have been "solved" but nothing publicly reported?

 

[questfortrue]

Hello, I've been here before (in another thread). I recently ran across an old book I'd read about this case, as I was cleaning my storage room, which prompted me to come here for updates today. I'm sorry if this has been posed already, but I'm curious about something. I've heard that BR wouldn't have been charged with any crime, since he was under 10. So what would happen if it was already determined he was guilty? What if he even perhaps admitted it, or his parents did? That information couldn't be leaked, correct? Is it then at all possible that the case could already have been "solved" but nothing publicly reported?

Good question, Gabby66. Yes, if BR had confessed, that information would not be public knowledge. Some believe the case was solved, and that’s one reason why the DA didn’t prosecute the parents for child abuse leading to death. But there are some differing opinions on that.

I don’t know that I have the final answer on this, but I’ve thought about it numerous times, particularly in light of Kolar’s book and his AMA on Reddit. There are some other posters like otg who'd have a more in-depth perspective on this.

Even if the GJ thought BR was the likely suspect, Kolar does not seem to reinforce that it was proven. He has interpreted the Grand Jury True Bills as indicating that the parents were covering for someone. Kolar has seen the evidence as well as the GJ records, yet he is not stating that the case is solved. Of course, this could be for legal reasons. Yet in his book FF he conveys he thought the case could be brought to conclusion by issuing a warrant for BR’s medical records, perhaps believing that BR may have had some medical records of violence or sexual behavior problems. (The DA he worked with, ML, shot that idea down. Remember seven years after the GJ, the DA spent $30,000 to bring confessor JMK to Colorado for a DNA test, an egregious expenditure if she saw in the True Bills that BR had confessed.)

In 2010 two detectives tried to visit BR and find out if he had any interest in speaking with them again. His response was no and either he or his father contacted attorney (LW) to have LW tell the police BR had no interest in answering more questions. IOW, not just a “no”, but a “H**l no” response.

Also, in a podcast, Kolar said another step would be to impanel a Grand Jury to ask BR additional questions. If BR had confessed there wouldn’t be additional need for further actions, imo, especially since the SoL has passed on both child abuse and the cover up.

When the Detective who was managing the collection of evidence spoke in 2006 to reporter McKinley, he made a pretty startling statement. (This Detective also sat in on the GJ proceedings every time they met.) It’s his opinion that there is more evidence to review and that the BPD should not give up. However, currently most believe that the City of Boulder has no further interest in funding the review and testing of additional evidence, i.e., investigation of a case involving the Rs. The case is a very sore topic in Boulder.

 

[Gabby66]

Thanks so much for this. Yes, I did't think about the fact that they spent so much $ to bring that guy back who confessed. Then again, I would presume that even IF they had a confession by BR, they'd still have to consider every angle? BR could have given a false confession, and they would have had to consider that, correct? After all, this guy's confession was false.

I read two books. I recall one was called "Perfect Murder Perfect Town" (PMPT). One was written by a former investigator - was that Kolar you mentioned? I can't recall if PMPT was by the instigator or not. I recall reading the first book and thought, "They didn't do it! Then I read the second book and thought, "They did it!" It was so interesting to me at the time.

Also, I was never convinced that there was sexual abuse. I mean, I think it's highly likely, but I'm not convinced it was ongoing. I think the paintbrush could've been just a means to make it appear there was abuse/motive. However, it would surely be interesting what was in BR's medical records, and it's equally interesting that they were sealed (I didn't recall reading about that before I read here)

Good question, Gabby66. Yes, if BR had confessed, that information would not be public knowledge. Some believe the case was solved, and that’s one reason why the DA didn’t prosecute the parents for child abuse leading to death. But there are some differing opinions on that.

I don’t know that I have the final answer on this, but I’ve thought about it numerous times, particularly in light of Kolar’s book and his AMA on Reddit. There are some other posters like otg who'd have a more in-depth perspective on this.

Even if the GJ thought BR was the likely suspect, Kolar does not seem to reinforce that it was proven. He has interpreted the Grand Jury True Bills as indicating that the parents were covering for someone. Kolar has seen the evidence as well as the GJ records, yet he is not stating that the case is solved. Of course, this could be for legal reasons. Yet in his book FF he conveys he thought the case could be brought to conclusion by issuing a warrant for BR’s medical records, perhaps believing that BR may have had some medical records of violence or sexual behavior problems. (The DA he worked with, ML, shot that idea down. Remember seven years after the GJ, the DA spent $30,000 to bring confessor JMK to Colorado for a DNA test, an egregious expenditure if she saw in the True Bills that BR had confessed.)

In 2010 two detectives tried to visit BR and find out if he had any interest in speaking with them again. His response was no and either he or his father contacted attorney (LW) to have LW tell the police BR had no interest in answering more questions. IOW, not just a “no”, but a “H**l no” response.

Also, in a podcast, Kolar said another step would be to impanel a Grand Jury to ask BR additional questions. If BR had confessed there wouldn’t be additional need for further actions, imo, especially since the SoL has passed on both child abuse and the cover up.

When the Detective who was managing the collection of evidence spoke in 2006 to reporter McKinley, he made a pretty startling statement. (This Detective also sat in on the GJ proceedings every time they met.) It’s his opinion that there is more evidence to review and that the BPD should not give up. However, currently most believe that the City of Boulder has no further interest in funding the review and testing of additional evidence, i.e., investigation of a case involving the Rs. The case is a very sore topic in Boulder.

 

[DeeDee249]

Keep in mind that the autopsy showed signs of PRIOR sexual abuse. A jab with a paint brush is one thing. An eroded hymen that had to have taken MULTIPLE times to cause, and BRUISING that was caused more than 24 hours prior to death were all found at the autopsy, and there is no explanation EXCEPT sexual contact while she was alive. Dead people don't bruise.

This is why I don't post much anymore. sigh....

 

[curiousjo]

Just a quick question. I have seen a couple postings about PR douching JB. Is that true??? ... If it is true- then could that cause trauma in that area?