Skinner - Verified Friend of Mark Sievers - Q & A thread

[Deleted member 159541]

Skinner - have you spoken with MS in the past week or two? Do you know if he is preparing for a possible arrest?

 

[Nana46]

I have deleted and rewritten this sentence three times already trying to figure out the timing of things. Hmmmmmmmmm

Two things are in my mind. One is that I was not in Missouri for a few years during which time some of the bad behavior news about Wayne was starting to come to my ears. The other was that Mark, and I cannot remember when, but it's perhaps about the same time, had moved permanently to Florida.

So Wayne was still wrapping up my program and finished it in May of 2005, if I recall correctly. I have no reason to think that Mark and Wayne did not remain friends. If there was anything disrupting that, I have no knowledge of it. Mark was married in Florida, Wayne married in Missouri with his kids.

So you and Wayne were still friends after his 'bad behavior news' came about? And he was still working on your program in 2005? Thanks in advance if you answer. Appreciate it!!

 

[irishchook]

Does MS have any ties to Colorado? <modsnip>

 

[Scout]

Skinner, was the invention that Wayne worked with you on hardware or software or both? You may have already described it, but I can't recall. Thanks.

 

[observation]

Good evening! Skinner- any new updates or insights regarding your friend MS. Has Mark ever been known to lag behind on his bills?


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[observation]

Hello, Skinner!! Just wondering if you had any thoughts or insights for us here at WS.


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[Skinner]

Three nights after the murder of Teresa Sievers, Mark called me and we spoke for maybe half an hour. I have shared one or two of the details from that conversation here, as you know. I did not share the following that transpired at the end of that phone conversation. There were three things in particular.

I said to Mark, “Can I pray with you about this [murder]?” He said, “Yes. Go ahead.”

I said, “Lord God, We come to you in the Name of Your Son, Jesus Christ. In this awful situation, 1) we ask that the police investigation work in this murder be the absolute best work ever, in the history of detective work in the earth – that their work is exemplary and efficient; 2) that the murder or murderers will be apprehended quickly; and 3) that justice would be done perfectly. In Jesus’ Name I pray.”

Mark responded with “Amen.”

I then said to Mark, “Mark, I sense strong conviction right now, that the Lord did in fact hear this prayer and acknowledged it affirmatively. I believe He will do it.”

He said, “I hope so.”

That phone call transpired just after midnight, July 1[SUP]st[/SUP], 2015.



Over the next several weeks, I kept google searching for anything related to the investigation and was scratching my head at 6 weeks when nothing was reported. At 8 weeks I was starting to doubt my conviction, but I was so sure of it at the time. As we all know, 8 weeks and 3 days later the news broke about the two men in Missouri arrested in connection to the case.

What struck me at that time was what Sheriff Scott said to the journalists on national TV when he described various details about the cooperation of various agencies and the speed with which they were working, and that in his career time as a policeman he had never before seen such excellence in police work.

I thought it pretty amazing that at that point, 2 of the 3 things prayed for were being addressed, and acknowledged to the Lord that I was sorry for beginning to doubt. When being asked certain questions here that I chose not to answer, I kept my confidence in the Lord that there was nothing to worry about. When God says He will do something, there is nothing to worry about.

And upon reading the affidavit that was released a couple weeks ago, seeing the CWT witness come forward a week or so later after the time of our prayer, and that it was remote, and put the Lee County Investigation onto the suspects in Missouri, which they did not know about until then, struck me, too.


Proverbs 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Proverbs 24:18 Or the LORD will see it and be displeased, And turn His anger away from him.
Proverbs 24:19 Do not fret because of evildoers Or be envious of the wicked;
Proverbs 24:20 For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.


Obadiah 1:12 "Do not gloat over your brother's day, The day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:13 "Do not enter the gate of My people In the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity In the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth In the day of their disaster.
Obadiah 1:14 "Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.

 

[Chi83]

Thank you for coming back.

This post seems cryptic to me. Are you saying not to gloat at MS's predicament? I'm just not sure.

I struggle with religion/God, but if there is a God, he would want the truth to come out and justice to be served. He would want all those involved to acknowledge their sin, accept their punishment now and into eternity, and put their faith and trust in Him. God forgives when humans do not but only if we as sinners accept and acknowledge our sin and our need for His guidance.

IMHO and thank you for your bravery. This must be painful for you too.

ETA: Justice can only be perfect when God gives it. Humans are imperfect, we will never be able to make things completely right. Fortunately for all of us, including MS, CWW, JRR, and everyone involved, God tempers his justice with mercy.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Skinner: glad to see you back & thank you for sharing your insights.

 

[Poppyflower]

Skinner: glad to see you back & thank you for sharing your insights.

Yes, thank you for your posts.

I struggle with religion and God too. I'd like to think that if there was a God that killers would just kill each other and leave the innocent people to live, heal, inspire, mother/father, spread peace and happiness. Our lives are short and all the innocent people deserve to live wonderful, amazing lives that further the human race to do positive work. That way many more humans can exceed in whatever matches their interests and skills. It would be a ripple effect for peace on Earth.

 

[MsArk]

Thank you Skinner for sharing your private conversation with MS.
I don't want to steer this thread off into a conversation about God, prayer, salvation etc. Just know you and I are on the same page about many of your convictions. Maybe not in delivery but in belief.
That said, I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty confident I can speak for the vast majority here. There is no gloating over Mark's calamity. I can almost assure your our collective heart is not glad he stumbled.
We are sickened by his actions. God is also grieved. There are laws, both mandated by man and by God that must be followed (Exodus 20:13, Romans 13: 8-10, Matthew 15:19). There are many more verses which speak to God's forgiveness when one is truly repentant.
There is much grief within the community of Teresa's family, friends and patients. She was most loved. While Mark can surely be forgiven by God, he should be held to the standard of the law. We all are held to the standard of the law. I think it is justice that we seek, not vengeance.
Mark's actions have hurt so many people, including you. It is very sad.

 

[SweetCaroline]

Ditto everything Mrs. Ark said.

Also, Skinner, I'm very sorry for what you and anyone else who loves Mark must be going through right now. Prayers for you.

 

[CeaElle]

Three nights after the murder of Teresa Sievers, Mark called me and we spoke for maybe half an hour. I have shared one or two of the details from that conversation here, as you know. I did not share the following that transpired at the end of that phone conversation. There were three things in particular.

I said to Mark, &#8220;Can I pray with you about this [murder]?&#8221; He said, &#8220;Yes. Go ahead.&#8221;

I said, &#8220;Lord God, We come to you in the Name of Your Son, Jesus Christ. In this awful situation, 1) we ask that the police investigation work in this murder be the absolute best work ever, in the history of detective work in the earth &#8211; that their work is exemplary and efficient; 2) that the murder or murderers will be apprehended quickly; and 3) that justice would be done perfectly. In Jesus&#8217; Name I pray.&#8221;

BBM: Thank you Skinner, for asking Mark to pray, and, for being specific in your requests.

Mark responded with &#8220;Amen.&#8221;

BBM: Thank you, O Heavenly Lord, for answering Mark's prayer! Hosanna in the highest!

 

[lstiff]

Thank you Skinner for sharing your private conversation with MS.
I don't want to steer this thread off into a conversation about God, prayer, salvation etc. Just know you and I are on the same page about many of your convictions. Maybe not in delivery but in belief.
That said, I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty confident I can speak for the vast majority here. There is no gloating over Mark's calamity. I can almost assure your our collective heart is not glad he stumbled.
We are sickened by his actions. God is also grieved. There are laws, both mandated by man and by God that must be followed (Exodus 20:13, Romans 13: 8-10, Matthew 15:19). There are many more verses which speak to God's forgiveness when one is truly repentant.
There is much grief within the community of Teresa's family, friends and patients. She was most loved. While Mark can surely be forgiven by God, he should be held to the standard of the law. We all are held to the standard of the law. I think it is justice that we seek, not vengeance.
Mark's actions have hurt so many people, including you. It is very sad.

This. :goodpost:

Skinner,

Thank you for coming back and posting. Despite various opinions here, I feel you to be in a tough spot. I can only imagine myself in your shoes and how I would feel if it were my friend. Thanks for your insight and I am glad your prayers were answered. I am not sure how you feel about MS being involved now with the new information released but I thank you for your time posting here with us.

 

[relay]

Thank you Skinner for sharing your private conversation with MS.
I don't want to steer this thread off into a conversation about God, prayer, salvation etc. Just know you and I are on the same page about many of your convictions. Maybe not in delivery but in belief.
That said, I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty confident I can speak for the vast majority here. There is no gloating over Mark's calamity. I can almost assure your our collective heart is not glad he stumbled.
We are sickened by his actions. God is also grieved. There are laws, both mandated by man and by God that must be followed (Exodus 20:13, Romans 13: 8-10, Matthew 15:19). There are many more verses which speak to God's forgiveness when one is truly repentant.
There is much grief within the community of Teresa's family, friends and patients. She was most loved. While Mark can surely be forgiven by God, he should be held to the standard of the law. We all are held to the standard of the law. I think it is justice that we seek, not vengeance.
Mark's actions have hurt so many people, including you. It is very sad.

Excellent and eloquent post, MrsArk. Thank you :blowkiss:

 

[kammiemc]

Three nights after the murder of Teresa Sievers, Mark called me and we spoke for maybe half an hour. I have shared one or two of the details from that conversation here, as you know. I did not share the following that transpired at the end of that phone conversation. There were three things in particular.

I said to Mark, “Can I pray with you about this [murder]?” He said, “Yes. Go ahead.”

I said, “Lord God, We come to you in the Name of Your Son, Jesus Christ. In this awful situation, 1) we ask that the police investigation work in this murder be the absolute best work ever, in the history of detective work in the earth – that their work is exemplary and efficient; 2) that the murder or murderers will be apprehended quickly; and 3) that justice would be done perfectly. In Jesus’ Name I pray.”

Mark responded with “Amen.”

I then said to Mark, “Mark, I sense strong conviction right now, that the Lord did in fact hear this prayer and acknowledged it affirmatively. I believe He will do it.”

He said, “I hope so.”

That phone call transpired just after midnight, July 1[SUP]st[/SUP], 2015.



Over the next several weeks, I kept google searching for anything related to the investigation and was scratching my head at 6 weeks when nothing was reported. At 8 weeks I was starting to doubt my conviction, but I was so sure of it at the time. As we all know, 8 weeks and 3 days later the news broke about the two men in Missouri arrested in connection to the case.

What struck me at that time was what Sheriff Scott said to the journalists on national TV when he described various details about the cooperation of various agencies and the speed with which they were working, and that in his career time as a policeman he had never before seen such excellence in police work.

I thought it pretty amazing that at that point, 2 of the 3 things prayed for were being addressed, and acknowledged to the Lord that I was sorry for beginning to doubt. When being asked certain questions here that I chose not to answer, I kept my confidence in the Lord that there was nothing to worry about. When God says He will do something, there is nothing to worry about.

And upon reading the affidavit that was released a couple weeks ago, seeing the CWT witness come forward a week or so later after the time of our prayer, and that it was remote, and put the Lee County Investigation onto the suspects in Missouri, which they did not know about until then, struck me, too.


Proverbs 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Proverbs 24:18 Or the LORD will see it and be displeased, And turn His anger away from him.
Proverbs 24:19 Do not fret because of evildoers Or be envious of the wicked;
Proverbs 24:20 For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.


Obadiah 1:12 "Do not gloat over your brother's day, The day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:13 "Do not enter the gate of My people In the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity In the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth In the day of their disaster.
Obadiah 1:14 "Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.

I'm so sorry for the pain you must be going through. I am glad that it seems as though justice will be served in this terrible murder. But I understand the complexity of emotions you must feel as MS's friend.


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[Frigga]

Skinner, I would like to know what you think Mark's involvement might be- now that you have read the documents?

 

[mariahc]

Three nights after the murder of Teresa Sievers, Mark called me and we spoke for maybe half an hour. I have shared one or two of the details from that conversation here, as you know. I did not share the following that transpired at the end of that phone conversation. There were three things in particular.

I said to Mark, “Can I pray with you about this [murder]?” He said, “Yes. Go ahead.”

I said, “Lord God, We come to you in the Name of Your Son, Jesus Christ. In this awful situation, 1) we ask that the police investigation work in this murder be the absolute best work ever, in the history of detective work in the earth – that their work is exemplary and efficient; 2) that the murder or murderers will be apprehended quickly; and 3) that justice would be done perfectly. In Jesus’ Name I pray.”

Mark responded with “Amen.”

I then said to Mark, “Mark, I sense strong conviction right now, that the Lord did in fact hear this prayer and acknowledged it affirmatively. I believe He will do it.”

He said, “I hope so.”

That phone call transpired just after midnight, July 1[SUP]st[/SUP], 2015.



Over the next several weeks, I kept google searching for anything related to the investigation and was scratching my head at 6 weeks when nothing was reported. At 8 weeks I was starting to doubt my conviction, but I was so sure of it at the time. As we all know, 8 weeks and 3 days later the news broke about the two men in Missouri arrested in connection to the case.

What struck me at that time was what Sheriff Scott said to the journalists on national TV when he described various details about the cooperation of various agencies and the speed with which they were working, and that in his career time as a policeman he had never before seen such excellence in police work.

I thought it pretty amazing that at that point, 2 of the 3 things prayed for were being addressed, and acknowledged to the Lord that I was sorry for beginning to doubt. When being asked certain questions here that I chose not to answer, I kept my confidence in the Lord that there was nothing to worry about. When God says He will do something, there is nothing to worry about.

And upon reading the affidavit that was released a couple weeks ago, seeing the CWT witness come forward a week or so later after the time of our prayer, and that it was remote, and put the Lee County Investigation onto the suspects in Missouri, which they did not know about until then, struck me, too.


Proverbs 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
Proverbs 24:18 Or the LORD will see it and be displeased, And turn His anger away from him.
Proverbs 24:19 Do not fret because of evildoers Or be envious of the wicked;
Proverbs 24:20 For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.


Obadiah 1:12 "Do not gloat over your brother's day, The day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:13 "Do not enter the gate of My people In the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity In the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth In the day of their disaster.
Obadiah 1:14 "Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.

I think Skinner has expressed his thoughts through scripture very clearly. I totally get what he is saying.
Proverbs 24:20 For there will be no future for the evil man; The lamp of the wicked will be put out.

Haunting to me is:
Obadiah 1:14 "Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors in the day of their distress. (Bolding mine)

 

[Satchie]

Thank you for sharing. I agree with your sentiments, this forum should be about solving a crime and ensuring (human) justice is served, but it shouldn't be used to pass moral judgement on people. I think we want to understand how such a thing could happen, but only the person themselves could explain it, and they probably cannot. Personally, I believe that human nature/ motivation /conscience is imperfect and can 'go wrong', just as everything else in this world.

 

[Skinner]

Thank you Skinner for sharing your private conversation with MS.
I don't want to steer this thread off into a conversation about God, prayer, salvation etc. Just know you and I are on the same page about many of your convictions. Maybe not in delivery but in belief.
That said, I can only speak for myself but I'm pretty confident I can speak for the vast majority here. There is no gloating over Mark's calamity. I can almost assure your our collective heart is not glad he stumbled.
We are sickened by his actions. God is also grieved. There are laws, both mandated by man and by God that must be followed (Exodus 20:13, Romans 13: 8-10, Matthew 15:19). There are many more verses which speak to God's forgiveness when one is truly repentant.
There is much grief within the community of Teresa's family, friends and patients. She was most loved. While Mark can surely be forgiven by God, he should be held to the standard of the law. We all are held to the standard of the law. I think it is justice that we seek, not vengeance.
Mark's actions have hurt so many people, including you. It is very sad.

Thanks All, for your sentiments.

To MrsArk, I could not agree more. And further, there can be no forgiveness if confession is not made and restitution sincerely attempted.

Allow me to speak for a second on the subject Wayne. Here's a guy who went to various churches on and off over the course of all the years I knew him, and from what I have read, continued through the last decade, too. But a person really is deceiving themselves if genuine repentance is not done, including the restoring of things stolen.

Or, if a murderer is in prison and thinks to himself, "Well, now I will truly focus on God," it's still false if a full confession is not made and owning up to the sin/crime. Such should write the various parties and take ownership of the sin/crime. For obvious reasons, it shows to God and heaven, and the offended party, that you accept the responsibility for the debt and will do whatever can be done to make right on that. God is not mocked, and people are not fools. He, and people, knows what is genuine.

I also love what a friend shared with me a few years ago, an essay on "apology". It's such a fantastic short piece that I hope you will not mind my sharing it. What's especially salient are the list of "false apologies" near the end of the essay. I'm sure you will all enjoy it.

= = = = = = = = =

[h=1]The Theology of Everyday Life: On Apology[/h]Posted on 6.21.2006

Over the last decade or so, psychologists have been intensively investigating the process of forgiveness. Specifically, forgiveness has been show to be a pivotal aspect of achieving mental health, particularly when we feel we have been wronged. Forgiveness research is an interesting area where psychological research and faith intermingle. If you are interested in this work, I recommend starting with the published research of Everett Worthington. Dr. Worthington is considered to be the world expert in forgiveness scholarship. I've been fortunate to have had a few personal conversations with Dr. Worthington and can recommend him as both an outstanding researcher and human being.

Today, I'd like to reflect on the other side of forgiveness: Apology.

I recently read a great book by Aaron Lazare (2004) entitled On Apology (published by Oxford University Press). In On Apology, Lazare contends, and I think he is right, that the simple interpersonal act of a sincere apology can be a remarkably healing moment. An effective apology can take minutes but can wipe away years of anger and venom. In my own life, I've found that apologies, sincerely offered, can radically alter a relationship for the good. I've observed this within my marriage, with my children, at my work, and at my church. If I ever feel like I have hurt someone, I've found that the offering of an apology can almost immediately bring two people, once distant, together. Have you not observed the same in your own life?

What is interesting about Lazare's book is that after identifying the components of an effective apology, he examines how apologies go wrong. Generally, an ineffective apology is missing on of Lazare's critical ingredients. What are the ingredients of an effective apology? Well, that is complex question, and you'll need to read Lazare's book for a full account. But the most critical ingredient in an effective apology is acknowledging the offense. Most apologies fail right out of the gate because they fail in this most basic task. To effectively acknowledge the offense the apology must:

1. Correctly identify the party or parties to whom the apology is owed.
2. Acknowledge the offending behaviors in adequate detail.
3. Recognize the impact that those behaviors have had on the victim(s).
4. Confirm that the grievance was a violation of the social or moral contract between the parties.

Generally speaking, both parties, the offender and offended, must agree that all four parts have been articulated (overtly or tacitly) for the apology to be effective.

What is really interesting about Lazare's book is how he examines successful and unsuccessful public apologies (often those of politicians or celebrities). Historically, effective apologies do all four things listed above. Ineffective apologies have typically failed in one of the four areas. More specifically, Lazare has identified eight different ways people fail to adequately acknowledge the offense. These are:

1. Offering a vague and incomplete acknowledgement: "I apologize for whatever I did."
2. Using the passive voice: "Mistakes may have been made."
3. Making the offense conditional: "If mistakes have been made..."
4. Questioning whether the victim is damaged: "If anyone was hurt..."
5. Minimizing the offense: "There's really nothing (or very little) to apologize for..."
6. Using the empathic "I'm sorry" (That is, using the phrase "I'm sorry" not as an apology but as an attempt to empathize as in "I'm sorry if you are upset." The implication being: "You really shouldn't be upset.").
7. Apologizing to the wrong party.
8. Apologizing for the wrong offense.

This list is just fascinating in that you can hear all those failed historical apologies from politicians or celebrities ringing in your ears. The examples abound. My personal favorite is the good old "I apologize if I offended anyone." That "apology," as Lazare notes, is bad on two accounts. First, it employs the word "if." Which implies that perhaps no one was really offended. Second, the implication of the statement is that if you were offended, well, that's really your problem. Any normal person, the insinuation is, would not have been offended. All told, "I apologize if I offended anyone," is a pretty poor apology, despite how common it is.

As Christians, called to the ministry of reconciliation, we should all become masters of the art of apology. We should teach both ourselves and our communities how to effectively use this simple but nuanced interpersonal interaction. Toward that end, I recommend Lazare's book as an excellent example of how a psychological and social analysis can aid us in our quest to minister to the world.

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2006/06/theology-of-everyday-life-on-apology.html