Skinner - Verified Friend of Mark Sievers - Q & A thread

[debbiegarcia36]

Thanks All, for your sentiments.

To MrsArk, I could not agree more. And further, there can be no forgiveness if confession is not made and restitution sincerely attempted.

Allow me to speak for a second on the subject Wayne. Here's a guy who went to various churches on and off over the course of all the years I knew him, and from what I have read, continued through the last decade, too. But a person really is deceiving themselves if genuine repentance is not done, including the restoring of things stolen.

Or, if a murderer is in prison and thinks to himself, "Well, now I will truly focus on God," it's still false if a full confession is not made and owning up to the sin/crime. Such should write the various parties and take ownership of the sin/crime. For obvious reasons, it shows to God and heaven, and the offended party, that you accept the responsibility for the debt and will do whatever can be done to make right on that. God is not mocked, and people are not fools. He, and people, knows what is genuine.

I also love what a friend shared with me a few years ago, an essay on "apology". It's such a fantastic short piece that I hope you will not mind my sharing it. What's especially salient are the list of "false apologies" near the end of the essay. I'm sure you will all enjoy it.

= = = = = = = = =

[h=1]The Theology of Everyday Life: On Apology[/h]Posted on 6.21.2006

Over the last decade or so, psychologists have been intensively investigating the process of forgiveness. Specifically, forgiveness has been show to be a pivotal aspect of achieving mental health, particularly when we feel we have been wronged. Forgiveness research is an interesting area where psychological research and faith intermingle. If you are interested in this work, I recommend starting with the published research of Everett Worthington. Dr. Worthington is considered to be the world expert in forgiveness scholarship. I've been fortunate to have had a few personal conversations with Dr. Worthington and can recommend him as both an outstanding researcher and human being.

Today, I'd like to reflect on the other side of forgiveness: Apology.

I recently read a great book by Aaron Lazare (2004) entitled On Apology (published by Oxford University Press). In On Apology, Lazare contends, and I think he is right, that the simple interpersonal act of a sincere apology can be a remarkably healing moment. An effective apology can take minutes but can wipe away years of anger and venom. In my own life, I've found that apologies, sincerely offered, can radically alter a relationship for the good. I've observed this within my marriage, with my children, at my work, and at my church. If I ever feel like I have hurt someone, I've found that the offering of an apology can almost immediately bring two people, once distant, together. Have you not observed the same in your own life?

What is interesting about Lazare's book is that after identifying the components of an effective apology, he examines how apologies go wrong. Generally, an ineffective apology is missing on of Lazare's critical ingredients. What are the ingredients of an effective apology? Well, that is complex question, and you'll need to read Lazare's book for a full account. But the most critical ingredient in an effective apology is acknowledging the offense. Most apologies fail right out of the gate because they fail in this most basic task. To effectively acknowledge the offense the apology must:

1. Correctly identify the party or parties to whom the apology is owed.
2. Acknowledge the offending behaviors in adequate detail.
3. Recognize the impact that those behaviors have had on the victim(s).
4. Confirm that the grievance was a violation of the social or moral contract between the parties.

Generally speaking, both parties, the offender and offended, must agree that all four parts have been articulated (overtly or tacitly) for the apology to be effective.

What is really interesting about Lazare's book is how he examines successful and unsuccessful public apologies (often those of politicians or celebrities). Historically, effective apologies do all four things listed above. Ineffective apologies have typically failed in one of the four areas. More specifically, Lazare has identified eight different ways people fail to adequately acknowledge the offense. These are:

1. Offering a vague and incomplete acknowledgement: "I apologize for whatever I did."
2. Using the passive voice: "Mistakes may have been made."
3. Making the offense conditional: "If mistakes have been made..."
4. Questioning whether the victim is damaged: "If anyone was hurt..."
5. Minimizing the offense: "There's really nothing (or very little) to apologize for..."
6. Using the empathic "I'm sorry" (That is, using the phrase "I'm sorry" not as an apology but as an attempt to empathize as in "I'm sorry if you are upset." The implication being: "You really shouldn't be upset.").
7. Apologizing to the wrong party.
8. Apologizing for the wrong offense.

This list is just fascinating in that you can hear all those failed historical apologies from politicians or celebrities ringing in your ears. The examples abound. My personal favorite is the good old "I apologize if I offended anyone." That "apology," as Lazare notes, is bad on two accounts. First, it employs the word "if." Which implies that perhaps no one was really offended. Second, the implication of the statement is that if you were offended, well, that's really your problem. Any normal person, the insinuation is, would not have been offended. All told, "I apologize if I offended anyone," is a pretty poor apology, despite how common it is.

As Christians, called to the ministry of reconciliation, we should all become masters of the art of apology. We should teach both ourselves and our communities how to effectively use this simple but nuanced interpersonal interaction. Toward that end, I recommend Lazare's book as an excellent example of how a psychological and social analysis can aid us in our quest to minister to the world.

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2006/06/theology-of-everyday-life-on-apology.html

Most excellent reading on an apology. It makes so much sense. Thank you for sharing it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[lisette]

BBM: Thank you, O Heavenly Lord, for answering Mark's prayer!Hosanna in the highest!

I also praise the Lord for answered prayer, but I believe that it was Skinner's prayer and not Mark's...

 

[irishchook]

Thanks All, for your sentiments.

To MrsArk, I could not agree more. And further, there can be no forgiveness if confession is not made and restitution sincerely attempted.

Allow me to speak for a second on the subject Wayne. Here's a guy who went to various churches on and off over the course of all the years I knew him, and from what I have read, continued through the last decade, too. But a person really is deceiving themselves if genuine repentance is not done, including the restoring of things stolen.

Or, if a murderer is in prison and thinks to himself, "Well, now I will truly focus on God," it's still false if a full confession is not made and owning up to the sin/crime. Such should write the various parties and take ownership of the sin/crime. For obvious reasons, it shows to God and heaven, and the offended party, that you accept the responsibility for the debt and will do whatever can be done to make right on that. God is not mocked, and people are not fools. He, and people, knows what is genuine.

I also love what a friend shared with me a few years ago, an essay on "apology". It's such a fantastic short piece that I hope you will not mind my sharing it. What's especially salient are the list of "false apologies" near the end of the essay. I'm sure you will all enjoy it.

= = = = = = = = =

[h=1]The Theology of Everyday Life: On Apology[/h]Posted on 6.21.2006

Over the last decade or so, psychologists have been intensively investigating the process of forgiveness. Specifically, forgiveness has been show to be a pivotal aspect of achieving mental health, particularly when we feel we have been wronged. Forgiveness research is an interesting area where psychological research and faith intermingle. If you are interested in this work, I recommend starting with the published research of Everett Worthington. Dr. Worthington is considered to be the world expert in forgiveness scholarship. I've been fortunate to have had a few personal conversations with Dr. Worthington and can recommend him as both an outstanding researcher and human being.

Today, I'd like to reflect on the other side of forgiveness: Apology.

I recently read a great book by Aaron Lazare (2004) entitled On Apology (published by Oxford University Press). In On Apology, Lazare contends, and I think he is right, that the simple interpersonal act of a sincere apology can be a remarkably healing moment. An effective apology can take minutes but can wipe away years of anger and venom. In my own life, I've found that apologies, sincerely offered, can radically alter a relationship for the good. I've observed this within my marriage, with my children, at my work, and at my church. If I ever feel like I have hurt someone, I've found that the offering of an apology can almost immediately bring two people, once distant, together. Have you not observed the same in your own life?

What is interesting about Lazare's book is that after identifying the components of an effective apology, he examines how apologies go wrong. Generally, an ineffective apology is missing on of Lazare's critical ingredients. What are the ingredients of an effective apology? Well, that is complex question, and you'll need to read Lazare's book for a full account. But the most critical ingredient in an effective apology is acknowledging the offense. Most apologies fail right out of the gate because they fail in this most basic task. To effectively acknowledge the offense the apology must:

1. Correctly identify the party or parties to whom the apology is owed.
2. Acknowledge the offending behaviors in adequate detail.
3. Recognize the impact that those behaviors have had on the victim(s).
4. Confirm that the grievance was a violation of the social or moral contract between the parties.

Generally speaking, both parties, the offender and offended, must agree that all four parts have been articulated (overtly or tacitly) for the apology to be effective.

What is really interesting about Lazare's book is how he examines successful and unsuccessful public apologies (often those of politicians or celebrities). Historically, effective apologies do all four things listed above. Ineffective apologies have typically failed in one of the four areas. More specifically, Lazare has identified eight different ways people fail to adequately acknowledge the offense. These are:

1. Offering a vague and incomplete acknowledgement: "I apologize for whatever I did."
2. Using the passive voice: "Mistakes may have been made."
3. Making the offense conditional: "If mistakes have been made..."
4. Questioning whether the victim is damaged: "If anyone was hurt..."
5. Minimizing the offense: "There's really nothing (or very little) to apologize for..."
6. Using the empathic "I'm sorry" (That is, using the phrase "I'm sorry" not as an apology but as an attempt to empathize as in "I'm sorry if you are upset." The implication being: "You really shouldn't be upset.").
7. Apologizing to the wrong party.
8. Apologizing for the wrong offense.

This list is just fascinating in that you can hear all those failed historical apologies from politicians or celebrities ringing in your ears. The examples abound. My personal favorite is the good old "I apologize if I offended anyone." That "apology," as Lazare notes, is bad on two accounts. First, it employs the word "if." Which implies that perhaps no one was really offended. Second, the implication of the statement is that if you were offended, well, that's really your problem. Any normal person, the insinuation is, would not have been offended. All told, "I apologize if I offended anyone," is a pretty poor apology, despite how common it is.

As Christians, called to the ministry of reconciliation, we should all become masters of the art of apology. We should teach both ourselves and our communities how to effectively use this simple but nuanced interpersonal interaction. Toward that end, I recommend Lazare's book as an excellent example of how a psychological and social analysis can aid us in our quest to minister to the world.

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2006/06/theology-of-everyday-life-on-apology.html

Hi Skinner,

I am a Catholic Christian and have very similar convictions.
However, some of us on WS are not as verse with the scriptures, etc. for various reasons.
We do appreciate that you have comfort in communication via Jesus and the bible.
I was wondering if you could describe your emotions, feelings, etc. in a fashion where most could relate.
Thank you for your insight and of the snapshot into your world with Wayne & Mark.


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Lilibet]

Skinner, Thanks very much for your post about Wayne and the necessity for confession as well as the information on apologies. Although I have disagreed with you on occasion, I am in complete agreement with your entire post.

Thank you also for your earlier post about your prayer with Mark. I certainly agree that it is wrong to rejoice over anyone's downfall. The difference between doing that and rejoicing that justice is done for Teresa can be a fine line. My hope for anyone who has committed an evil act is that they will repent, confess, seek forgiveness and accept the consequences. King David himself is an example for all in that regard! No one is a lost cause unless they want to be.

I know this has been a rough time for you from the time of Teresa's murder, Wayne's arrest, and now the release of information implicating Mark. It's a lot to absorb, I'm sure. I pray that you will have peace of mind and that those responsible for Teresa's murder will be brought both to justice and to sincere sorrow over what they have done.

 

[Deleted member 159541]

Hello Skinner,
As a friend of Mark, did he ever discuss his belief in Atheism? I am sure that you, like I, saw the cross of David that he wore daily as well as heard him reference his Jewish background. However, he seemed most proud of proclaiming that there was no God and that he was an Atheist. I ask this question because I believe that Mark speaks the language of his audience as a means of control and manipulation. In my presence, and the presence of others, he claimed to be an Atheist. In your presence, he was willing to pray to God or partake in prayer. Do you feel as if he was manipulating your absolute convictions in an effort to get you to believe that he knew nothing about Teresa's murder? That is how it comes across to me and for that, if it was the case, I am sorry that a friend used you in that manner.

I wholeheartedly agree with your apology post. Thank you and if you don't care to answer, I understand.

 

[Skinner]

Hello Skinner,
As a friend of Mark, did he ever discuss his belief in Atheism? I am sure that you, like I, saw the cross of David that he wore daily as well as heard him reference his Jewish background. However, he seemed most proud of proclaiming that there was no God and that he was an Atheist. I ask this question because I believe that Mark speaks the language of his audience as a means of control and manipulation. In my presence, and the presence of others, he claimed to be an Atheist. In your presence, he was willing to pray to God or partake in prayer. Do you feel as if he was manipulating your absolute convictions in an effort to get you to believe that he knew nothing about Teresa's murder? That is how it comes across to me and for that, if it was the case, I am sorry that a friend used you in that manner.

I wholeheartedly agree with your apology post. Thank you and if you don't care to answer, I understand.

To Lisette too, as well as AmazonRain,

First, hearing that Mark openly stated he is an atheist, takes me a bit by surprise. He actually said that? I recall him saying that he just did not know what to think (agnostic) but over the years he told me that he was leaning toward the truth that Jesus was probably the Messiah promised to the Jews. I remember he called me about 3 years ago and had some specific questions about Jesus, and I had him get his Jewish Tenach (Old Testament) and read 3 or 4 of the Messianic prophecies in it that had him in awe. And his telling me that Teresa was raised Catholic and she taught the girls to pray to Jesus, had me believing that, intellectually, he was being honest with me.

Lisette, I try to write this humbly, but I really am a wretch. I'm not attempting false humility here. I mean, I know what a schmuck I am or can be. Regarding any prayer, if we go with faith (trust) in the invisible God, there's a very good chance we can get an affirmative to our request.

More importantly, in my thinking, is two-fold: 1) If Mark is aware of all that went down and then says "Amen" to a prayer about trying to find justice, etc., well to me it's like playing with fire. And simultaneously 2) it's Jesus showing His love still, and still trying to reach Mark in a dramatic way, to repent before it's ultimately too late.

 

[creepingskills]

To Lisette too, as well as AmazonRain,

First, hearing that Mark openly stated he is an atheist, takes me a bit by surprise. He actually said that? I recall him saying that he just did not know what to think (agnostic) but over the years he told me that he was leaning toward the truth that Jesus was probably the Messiah promised to the Jews. I remember he called me about 3 years ago and had some specific questions about Jesus, and I had him get his Jewish Tenach (Old Testament) and read 3 or 4 of the Messianic prophecies in it that had him in awe. And his telling me that Teresa was raised Catholic and she taught the girls to pray to Jesus, had me believing that, intellectually, he was being honest with me.

Lisette, I try to write this humbly, but I really am a wretch. I'm not attempting false humility here. I mean, I know what a schmuck I am or can be. Regarding any prayer, if we go with faith (trust) in the invisible God, there's a very good chance we can get an affirmative to our request.

More importantly, in my thinking, is two-fold: 1) If Mark is aware of all that went down and then says "Amen" to a prayer about trying to find justice, etc., well to me it's like playing with fire. And simultaneously 2) it's Jesus showing His love still, and still trying to reach Mark in a dramatic way, to repent before it's ultimately too late.

Your last paragraph is especially interesting, thought provoking. Thank you, Skinner!

 

[freekobe0832]

Hi Skinner, thank you for all of your posts on WS. Have you heard from MS since documents came out, or have you been tempted to reach out to him?

 

[Matlacha]

. . .
Obadiah 1:12 "Do not gloat over your brother's day, The day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:13 "Do not enter the gate of My people In the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity In the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth In the day of their disaster.
Obadiah 1:14 "Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors In the day of their distress.
Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD draws near on all the nations. As you have done, it will be done to you. Your dealings will return on your own head.

I think someone above took the "survivors" quote as a reference to Teresa's daughters, and that may have been Skinner's intention too (good writing is often vague, so as to apply widely). But Skinner, as a friend of Mark's, is also a survivor, and after the document dump, there was, as I recall, some gloating directed his way (where are you now, Skinner?, etc.). Anyway, there's lots of wisdom in those lines Skinner quoted; the phrase "pride goeth before a fall" is good, practical advice. Great wisdom too in the "Apology" piece he quoted.

On the question of the discarded computers--if the hard drives were removed, where are they? On a busy day, with panic setting in, were they actually destroyed, or were they also recovered by LE? (I've pulled a lot of hard drives over the years, but they're still sitting in my basement, as I've never taken the time to soak them in saltwater, etc.) A hurried "quick format" wouldn't hide the evidence any more than CWW's deletions from the GPS device.

 

[SurfieTX]

Skinner,

Did Mark have any nicknames? Also, do you have a personal email address for him?

 

[Scout]

To Lisette too, as well as AmazonRain,

First, hearing that Mark openly stated he is an atheist, takes me a bit by surprise. He actually said that? I recall him saying that he just did not know what to think (agnostic) but over the years he told me that he was leaning toward the truth that Jesus was probably the Messiah promised to the Jews. I remember he called me about 3 years ago and had some specific questions about Jesus, and I had him get his Jewish Tenach (Old Testament) and read 3 or 4 of the Messianic prophecies in it that had him in awe. And his telling me that Teresa was raised Catholic and she taught the girls to pray to Jesus, had me believing that, intellectually, he was being honest with me.

Lisette, I try to write this humbly, but I really am a wretch. I'm not attempting false humility here. I mean, I know what a schmuck I am or can be. Regarding any prayer, if we go with faith (trust) in the invisible God, there's a very good chance we can get an affirmative to our request.

More importantly, in my thinking, is two-fold: 1) If Mark is aware of all that went down and then says "Amen" to a prayer about trying to find justice, etc., well to me it's like playing with fire. And simultaneously 2) it's Jesus showing His love still, and still trying to reach Mark in a dramatic way, to repent before it's ultimately too late.

Mark saying "Amen" to your prayer indicates to me that he truly does not believe in God.

 

[Riversinthedesert]

To Lisette too, as well as AmazonRain,

First, hearing that Mark openly stated he is an atheist, takes me a bit by surprise. He actually said that? I recall him saying that he just did not know what to think (agnostic) but over the years he told me that he was leaning toward the truth that Jesus was probably the Messiah promised to the Jews. I remember he called me about 3 years ago and had some specific questions about Jesus, and I had him get his Jewish Tenach (Old Testament) and read 3 or 4 of the Messianic prophecies in it that had him in awe. And his telling me that Teresa was raised Catholic and she taught the girls to pray to Jesus, had me believing that, intellectually, he was being honest with me.

Lisette, I try to write this humbly, but I really am a wretch. I'm not attempting false humility here. I mean, I know what a schmuck I am or can be. Regarding any prayer, if we go with faith (trust) in the invisible God, there's a very good chance we can get an affirmative to our request.

More importantly, in my thinking, is two-fold: 1) If Mark is aware of all that went down and then says "Amen" to a prayer about trying to find justice, etc., well to me it's like playing with fire. And simultaneously 2) it's Jesus showing His love still, and still trying to reach Mark in a dramatic way, to repent before it's ultimately too late.

That is the "Amazing Grace" of God. He loved us before we loved Him. He died for us while we were yet sinners, and will continue to reach out to us until the end. We should all pray that Mark will truly repent, for his own soul, and for the sake of his girls and all involved. If he truly repented and turned from his pride, he would turn himself (and other conspirators) in and spare the family from further heartache.

Thank you Skinner for praying that prayer of faith, and for sharing it with us. We are sorry for all you have been through.

 

[freekobe0832]

Hello Skinner. I'm not sure if you still check in on this board, but I was just wondering if you have had any contact with MS since your last update? Do you have any thoughts you'd care to share with us since these last few doc dumps have come out? Hope you are well.

 

[atthelake]

I just woke up an hour ago and see that I missed MS call to me. He left me a voice message last night while I was sleeping, and I was unable to ascertain the type of answer you will be sure to ask of me, so suffice it to say I look forward to trying to touch base with him later today.

His message was only that he wanted to touch base with me, as was the language he ALWAYS used with me, forever.

Skinner have you had contact with Mark since you saw on your phone you had a message from his phone number the evening of 8/31 and then spoke later? Is he still reaching out to his friends and getting back into contacting you and other friends of his.

 

[atthelake]

If you knew me, you'd know I don't trust anybody, but Christ Jesus. I understand sin, and what we are to learn from it in our dealings with God and other people, how only God is good.

All people will, or can, let you down. So I do not put my utter trust into people.

Like I said from the outset, in all my dealings with MS, if he had a hand in the death of TS, then he hid it from me quite well. But like I have said to my own wife, and everybody who knows me, "All will be revealed on judgment day. If you do something behind my back, it will eventually come to light."

That is at the foundation of my dealings with ALL humans. And MS heard me say this forever. He knows more about Christianity than 99.9% of the professing christians on the planet because from my first meeting him, I shared and preached the gospel to him.

He recently told me that he is leaning toward believing in Christ. TS, a catholic, taught the girls to pray to Jesus every night, and Mark, an unreligious Jew, enjoyed praying with the girls at the side of their beds, and would tell them to make sure they said their prayers before going to sleep.

He is still not a believer in Christ, not born again.

Just checking in to thinking of how you and your wife are.

I was rereading some of the threads and came across this and how you said they would pray to Jesus Christ every night... which is what Mark said to AL after the murder (per AL interview ). Mark said they, on the way home from the airport... pulling off, did a prayer with Teresa while she was in the airport before they went to bed.

 

[noel leon]

I too have thought about you Skinner, and I hope you are doing well.

 

[cocomod]

Skinner, I am not sure if you are in shock or saw this coming, but I feel very bad for any and all who knew both MS and TS. This is a horrible, horrible tragedy! Noone wants to believe that someone they know, love, trust could be capable of this.

http://www.winknews.com/2016/02/26/mark-sievers-arrested-in-wifes-murder/



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-02-26-Arrest-warrant-issued-for-Mark-Sievers

 

[lstiff]

Not sure if you're still around here Skinner but we're here for you if you're still checking in. You're a victim too. Hope you're doing well.

 

[1&2&3]

One of the worst things in the world is to have a long time friend turn on you, use you, or show you a side of them that you would never in a million years think they w ere capable of.

Skinner, thoughts are with you and others who got knocked off their feet from Mark's actions.

 

[beach]

:bump:

I see Skinner dropped in tonight.

I'm sure this has been a tough time for you. Hope you're doing okay, Skinner.