Spade's Lawyering Theory from Forums for Justice

Meara

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HI Everyone,

With Tricia's permission, the thread below is copied from "Lawyering JonBenet," on FFJ. It has intriguing information relevant to recent discussions here about the missing phone records and the Rams' lawyering up. Posting it here provides a way for interested members to connect and discuss in one place. The original FFJ thread was posted by a member named Spade, aka Tal Jones, who was/is a friend of Fleet White and is also credited with obtaining and posting online the Bonita Papers and transcripts of JR and PR's Atlanta interviews in 2000.

Since the original thread is too long for one post, it's copied in sequential batches. If you see random numbers here and there or other weird stuff, they're just embedded formatting artifacts. Smile and wave!


Lawyering JonBenet



Page 1

SpadeMember

One of the unusual features of this case and IMO the key to understanding what happened that night, is to analyze how the case has been lawyered. Starting the night of December 26, 1996 at 5PM, with Mike Bynum summoning Fleet to his office and ending last week with Mary Lacy's pathetic news conference; the behavior of lawyers has been consistently bizarre. As you read this list, please keep in mind that once a prosecutor starts to lie, there is no turning back.

1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when "the intimidation began."

2. Hofstrom and DeMuth spent the early days of the case taking phone calls in Bynum's office (per ST's book).

3. Haddon had his PI's on the street early AM 12/27/96, often beating the BPD to witnesses.

4. Haddon used his personal political chits to delay Gov. Roemer's decision on the GJ/remove Hunter.

5. Jenkins (Burke's lawyer) went to court to demand a copy of the 911 call. This was a condition of Burke's GJ appearance. Jenkins received his copy.

6. Hunter found Krebs credible and goes public with his support.

7. Hunter writes Wood a carefully parsed excuse for Burke for Wood's use in a shakedown of American Media.

8. Hunter asks Tracey to "look into Fleet White's California connections".

9. Hunter shares half-truths with Jeff Shapiro.

10. Bellipanni abruptly resigns as presiding GJ judge and is replaced by Roxanne Bailin. This despite Foxy Roxy's long-term personal friendship and book co-authorship with Patrick Burke, Patsy's attorney.

11. Mary Keenan/Lacy tries to throw: Santa Claus, Churchmouse, Helgoth, Gigax, and Karr under the bus.

This list is endless but before we add to it, I would like to discuss #1 and #4:
Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
#1


RiverRatFFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when “the intimidation beganâ€.)

This occurred within what? 24 hours of the murder?
RiverRat, Sep 5, 2006
#2


zoomamaActive Member

Spade,

with all that lawyer power and so quickly gotten could it also mean that there was not only a CYA going on but also covering up someone else besides family members. I 've not completely relinquished any idea of someone else being in the house...but I have no idea who it might be. Also could it be that the Ramseys didn't want to take the blame all by themselves, hence all the lawyers.
zoomama, Sep 5, 2006
#3


MlazyVBanned for Stupidity

A law degree is little more than a license to lie and cheat and in some instances do it with the court’s blessings.
MlazyV, Sep 5, 2006
#4


heymomMember

Spade said:
One of the unusual features of this case and IMO the key to understanding what happened that night, is to analyze how the case has been lawyered. Starting the night of December 26, 1996 at 5PM, with Mike Bynum summoning Fleet to his office and ending last week with Mary Lacy’s pathetic news conference; the behavior of lawyers has been consistently bizarre. As you read this list, please keep in mind that once a prosecutor starts to lie, there is no turning back.

1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when “the intimidation beganâ€.)

2. Hofstrom and DeMuth spent the early days of the case taking phone calls in Bynum’s office (per ST’s book).

3. Haddon had his PI’s on the street early AM 12/27/96, often beating the BPD to witnesses.

4. Haddon used his personal political chits to delay Gov. Roemer’s decision on the GJ/remove Hunter.

5. Jenkins (Burke’s lawyer) went to court to demand a copy of the 911 call. This was a condition of Burke’s GJ appearance. Jenkins received his copy.

6. Hunter found Krebs credible and goes public with his support.

7. Hunter writes Wood a carefully parsed excuse for Burke for Wood’s use in a shakedown of American Media.

8. Hunter asks Tracey to “look into Fleet White’s California connectionsâ€.

9. Hunter shares half-truths with Jeff Shapiro.

10. Balipini abruptly resigns as presiding GJ judge and is replaced by Roxanne Bailin. This despite Foxy roxy's long-term personal friendship and book co-authorship with Pat Furman, Patsy’s attorney.

11. Mary Keenan/Lacytries to throw: Santa Claus, Churchmouse, Helgoth, Gigax, and Karr under the bus.

This list is endless but before we add to it, I would like to discuss #1 and #4:
Click to expand...
I know this is #12 or whatever, but I just got to the point in PMPT, just before the GJ is convened, where Fleet White wants a copy of his previous interview and is continually denied access to it...yet the Ramseys had every bit of evidence including the ransom note given to them. I guess he is under more of the umbrella than the Rams are.

And I didn't realize that the Ramsey's PIs were out the very next day. I'm surprised anyone talked to the PD at all.

Heymom
heymom, Sep 5, 2006
#5


Spade

River Rat

Mike Bynum called Fleet White about 4 in the afternoon of December 26, 1996 while the Whites and the Ramsey's were at Fernie's house. An hour later, White went to Bynum's office where he was told: "Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman have been hired to 'handle' this ...you are to STAY OUT OF IT."

This was 3 hours and 45 minutes after Fleet and John found the body. IMO it would be impossible for Bynum to provide enough information to retain Haddon
UNLESS he started the process before the body was "found".
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#6


1000 SparksActive Member

Just what was Bynum "handling"?

Protecting the Rams from the killer?
Don't think that is the job of an attorney, but the PD.

and why were they so insistant on White "keeping out of it".
Bribes?
1000 Sparks, Sep 5, 2006
#7



Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

This gives me the impression that Fleet White may have been a stand up guy who wasn't afraid to speak up, and he told it like it was. He has more than proven that since through the letters he has written and his attempts to get independent prosecutors in to handle the case.

Bynum must have known White, or at least he knew of his honesty and frankness, and it sounds to me as if he was warning Fleet not to interfere (with the truth?).
Watching You, Sep 5, 2006
#8



TriciaAdministratorStaff Member

Watching You said:
This gives me the impression that Fleet White may have been a stand up guy who wasn't afraid to speak up, and he told it like it was. He has more than proven that since through the letters he has written and his attempts to get independent prosecutors in to handle the case.

Bynum must have known White, or at least he knew of his honesty and frankness, and it sounds to me as if he was warning Fleet not to interfere (with the truth?).
This would explain the attempt to destroy the Whites.

The Whites are stand up people. Very honest. And Priscilla is like a size 2. I have always said she looks like Cindy Crawford.
:)
Tricia, Sep 5, 2006
#9



Spade

Door #3

The hypothesis that Bryan Morgan and Mike Bynum were able to “fix†an agreement with the Boulder DA’s office within 24 hours of JonBenet’s death is known as Door #3 by law enforcement officers. My personal opinion is that the Door #3 theory is true.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#10



RiverRatFFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

Thank you, Spade

Spade said:
Mike Bynum called Fleet White about 4 in the afternoon of December 26, 1996 while the Whites and the Ramsey's were at Fernie's house. An hour later, White went to Bynum's office where he was told: "Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman have been hired to 'handle' this ...you are to STAY OUT OF IT."

This was 3 hours and 45 minutes after Fleet and John found the body. IMO it would be impossible for Bynum to provide enough information to retain Haddon
UNLESS he started the process before the body was "found".
That was my understanding but I did want the clarification from you. So what exactly was IT that Fleet was supposed to stay out of? I highly doubt that he was acting as their defense attorney so what else is there that he wasn't wanted for? Being a friend?! Or being a friend that knew too much by witnessing the Empty Wine Room?

As far as the Petite Priscilla goes.....If she was included on the Stay Out of It list - I wonder if she was aware of it while she was saving the day with the Sister Socks find.

Oh and Tricia Love - I did read that Size 2 information somewhere, maybe I will google it up later.
RiverRat, Sep 5, 2006
#11



1000 SparksActive Member

and if they get a REAL new prosecutor

Will Fleet White speak up with what he knows?

What is Fleet waiting for?

I guess I don't get it. Is EVERYONE deceitful in Boulder?
1000 Sparks, Sep 5, 2006
#12



SpadeMember

Whites

It is my impression that both Fleet and Priscilla White were/are strong advocates of the Ramsey’s telling the truth about the tragic death of JonBenet. However, the legal advice that the Ramsey’s were receiving was cautioning them to “let the lawyers work this out.†Consequently, IMO Bynum was attempting to intimidate (Fleet White’s description) the White’s into silence.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#13



RiverRatFFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

Indulge me one....

Fortunately, there is only one Intimidator and Bynum is not it!
Last edited: May 10, 2009
RiverRat, Sep 5, 2006
#14



RiverRatFFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at L

Spade - I knew that you would be returning any minute now and would do so in a way that gives us hope. After witnessing the recent return of the Coven, your timing could not have been better. You ready to do this one more time? I am - even if we have to go through this again in another five flipping years - they are not going to have it easy as long as I live.
RiverRat, Sep 5, 2006
#15



wombatMember

Right after the patrolman arrived at 755 15th street, responding to the 911 call, the Ramsey's phone rang, and John answered it with "JonBenet's been kidnapped?" (Steve's book). Do we know who that was?

The only reason somebody would call at 6 am on Dec 26 is a huge emergency, or to return a call from someone who announced a huge emergency. This means to me that the Rs called somebody before they called 911, or right after, before the police arrived.
wombat, Sep 5, 2006
#16



Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

1000 Sparks said:
Will Fleet White speak up with what he knows?

What is Fleet waiting for?

I guess I don't get it. Is EVERYONE deceitful in Boulder?
Honestly, Sparky, I think Fleet has so much integrity that nothing is going to make him say anything outside of a courtroom, and he's smart not to say anything. I don't know how much Fleet knows, but he doesn't appear to me to be the type to be intimidated by anyone.

I doubt EVERYONE in Boulder is deceitful outside of the known players in this case. Most of the general public is probably too stoned on weed to care. Maybe that's what happened to maim's brain.
Watching You, Sep 5, 2006
#17



koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

John finds the body at 1:00ish pm.

By 4 pm, Bynum is making phone calls to bring in witnesses to intimidate for Haddon?

I thought Bynum's story was he was on the slopes that morning when he got the call--presumably that JonBenet had been "kidnapped." So he zipped back--guess Scotty beamed him in--hired Haddon, and was already into defense plans by 4 pm...only 3 hours after ANYONE was supposed to know JonBenet had been murdered?

You know, now I'm thinking about what John Ramsey wrote in his spin book. He said quite a few things, but I'm not seeing that Haddon was hired by 4 pm.

DOI: (p. 28: Speaking about Arndt at the Fernie's on the 26th, asking for the Ramseys to go to the BPD for questioning, the Ramseys refusing because they were too distraught, etc.)

I could tell that Arndt didn't like my answer and she intended to persist. Mike Bynum, a good friend who had arrived earlier with food in hand, overheard Arndt insisting that we go down to the police station. He immediately talked with our family pediatricion...[who] told Mike that...Patsy was in no condition to leave the house....

[snip]

[Bynum to John] Would you give me permission to make some choices for you and do what needs to be done?"

"Mike, I'd be grateful...."
Click to expand...
So then Bynum takes over, tells the BPD no interviews at the police station, no condition to do anything...don't call us, we'll call you...ciao, baby. (I paraphrased, of course, but that's the gist.)

Then John says "Later in the afternoon of the 27th" he got a call from Access Graphics employee Gary Merriman telling John Gary had gotten "a call from someone inside the system who told him that I should get the best criminal defense attorney I could, as soon as possible." (p.28)

"Why?" I asked incredulously. "Do they consider me a suspect?"

"I don't know," he answered. "That's the only information I can give you."

I hung up slowly. Everything seemed scrambled again. Why in the world would the police in any fashion suspect me? ...I decided not to tell anyone about Gary's warning.
So...according to John, on the 27th, he NEEDED a lawyer, after receiving INSIDE INFORMATION from one of AG's own employees that John was being considered a suspect. Remember, AG was owned by LOCKHEED MARTIN...it's worth mentioning, I believe.

But John appears to be saying that on the 27th (the day after his daughter's body was found on the 26th, which was the same day that Bynum was hiring lawyers and intimidating witnesses), the day after the body was found, when Haddon had private investigators already out locking witnesses into their statements before the BPD could even get to them to question...John still didn't know he even HAD a lawyer?

So THEN John says the 27th passes with his devastation so great, he couldn't even talk to Patsy or anyone for long. He then moves to THE NEXT DAY...the 28th:

When Mike Bynum returned the next day [Sat./28th], I had a private conversation with him. He told me that it would be prudent for me to retain an attorney. Gary Merriman's call earlier was still working in my mind, so I told Mike to do whatever he thought was right. But I still wasn't making sense of it all.
So then John goes into the story of Bynum being told by HOFSTROM, FROM THE DA'S OFFICE, that the police refused to release JonBenet's body (p. 31):

While Mike did not inform us of this act of stupidity and brutality at the time, he started to take the actions necessary to protect us from the mounting police assault. Bynum quickly arranged for Bryan Morgan of Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman in Denver to represent me and for Patrick Burke to represent Patsy. By Saturday night [28th], we had been introduced to both of these men. I did not understand why two attorneys were necessary, but I was in no condition to discuss the matter.
So let's see:

Dec. 25/Wed.; Dec. 26/Thurs.} JonBenet is murdered either Wed. night between 10 pm and 12 midnight, or Thurs. morning between 12 am and 5 am [LE was called by 6 am].

Dec. 26/Thurs.} body found approx. 1 pm; John and Patsy go to the Fernies, where the BPD tries to interview them, but Bynum intervenes, with John's permission, according to John himself; Fleet White says this day he was called by Bynum at 4 pm into Bynum's office by 5 pm and told to back off, Haddon was in charge now.

Dec. 27/Fri.} John says that he is informed by Gary Merriman [human resources director of AG] that he needs a lawyer. He tells no one.

Dec. 28/Sat.} John says Mike Bynum RETURNS and tells John he needs an attorney; the Ramseys meet their lawyers; Patsy does home shopping with Roxy and her sisters, picking out a black knit dress from some sent over by a department store in Denver, imagining Jackie O as her inspiration, black veil and all; Patsy is fed by spoon during these "days after December 26."

Dec. 29/Sun.} JonBenet's memorial service held; Patsy's 40th birthday.

Dec. 30/Mon.} Visitation at funeral home for JonBenet, in Marietta, Ga.

Dec. 31/Tues.} JonBenet buried next to Beth in Marietta.

Jan. 1/Wed.} John and Patsy go on TV on CNN; John repeatedly states it was FLEET WHITE WHO HAD THE IDEA AND INSISTED THE RAMSEYS GO PUBLIC; Patsy mentions the dilapidated taxi that arrived to take them to the studio.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#18



SpadeMember

#4 on the list

4. Haddon used his personal political chits to delay Gov. Roemer’s decision on the GJ/remove Hunter.

We all know that Hal Haddon is a force among Colorado Democrats. He and his wife Beverly were instrumental in the election of Roy Roemer State Treasurer and Governor. Consequently, it was very significant information when a friend in the State Capital told me that Haddon had lobbied Roemer in favor of Alex Hunter’s continuing control of the Ramsey case. It was/is significant for two reasons:

1. Possibly the fix was already in with Alex…so why change?
2. Absolutely John Ramsey was not the sexual abuser or killer of JonBenet. (If Haddon used a political chit (favor owed) for a child molester/murderer client, he would be finished as a political power broker).

Wombat- I don't know who called the Ramsey house that AM but the "Kidnapping Brunch" certainly disregarded the warning in the ransom note.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#19



heymomMember

Spade said:
4. Haddon used his personal political chits to delay Gov. Roemer’s decision on the GJ/remove Hunter.

We all know that Hal Haddon is a force among Colorado Democrats. He and his wife Beverly were instrumental in the election of Roy Roemer State Treasurer and Governor. Consequently, it was very significant information when a friend in the State Capital told me that Haddon had lobbied Roemer in favor of Alex Hunter’s continuing control of the Ramsey case. It was/is significant for two reasons:

1. Possibly the fix was already in with Alex…so why change?
2. Absolutely John Ramsey was not the sexual abuser or killer of JonBenet. (If Haddon used a political chit (favor owed) for a child molester/murderer client, he would be finished as a political power broker).

Wombat- I don't know who called the Ramsey house that AM but the "Kidnapping Brunch" certainly disregarded the warning in the ransom note.
This whole thread makes me want to sick up...I mean, my heart knew what was going on, that people had been paid off, there was corruption involved, but FROM THE FIRST HOURS???? When the Ramseys were supposedly freaked out at all that had happened??? What was really happening was that they were using every single dollar and every bit of their power and influence to make sure they would never be charged with JonBenet's killing.

This is SICKENING!!!!
:burnedup:
heymom, Sep 5, 2006
#20
 
Ack! There are 6 more pages, which I added as replies to my first post, to work around word limits. They showed as posted, but.....oh well. I will work on getting those to you today. The information is pretty eye opening.
 
Ack! There are 6 more pages, which I added as replies to my first post, to work around word limits. They showed as posted, but.....oh well. I will work on getting those to you today. The information is pretty eye opening.
It's extremely eye opening.....thank you for posting!
 
Ack! There are 6 more pages, which I added as replies to my first post, to work around word limits. They showed as posted, but.....oh well. I will work on getting those to you today. The information is pretty eye opening.

Lawyering JonBenet Page 2

PagingDrDetectMember

Spade said:
This was 3 hours and 45 minutes after Fleet and John found the body. IMO it would be impossible for Bynum to provide enough information to retain Haddon UNLESS he started the process before the body was "found".
No question. You can't even get an attorney on the phone to talk to you at all within that time frame no matter who you are... even a spouse. And the day after Christmas???? Not a chance. I always thought that JR put out a cry for help to his cronies before the PD ever got to the house. That 911 call wasn't made until the Ramsey's knew they had their backsides covered. No doubt in my mind that the reason Hunter refused to let anyone get the phone records of the Ramsey's is for that reason... I'm also convinced that Hunter himself was probably a part of that.

I hated law because of the corruption (I used to be a paralegal). It isn't just Boulder, it's everywhere. And those doing it are pretty much in-your-face about it... no worries - it's accepted and expected. Why they even bother teaching ethics in law school is beyond me. Ethics? What's that? Ugh!

There's also no doubt in my mind that the White's (Fleet in particular) were viciously thrown under the bus and backed up over as retaliation and a warning.

Thanks for the heads-up, Spade. :hiya:
PagingDrDetect, Sep 5, 2006
#21


heymomMember

PagingDrDetect said:
I always thought that JR put out a cry for help to his cronies before the PD ever got to the house. That 911 call wasn't made until the Ramsey's knew they had their backsides covered. No doubt in my mind that the reason Hunter refused to let anyone get the phone records of the Ramsey's is for that reason... I'm also convinced that Hunter himself was probably a part of that.

:hiya:
:devil: :devil: :devil: :hopmad: :hopmad: :curse: :curse: I'd like to see them all burn in Hell. Someday, they will.

Heymom
heymom, Sep 5, 2006
#22


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

1000 Sparks said:
Will Fleet White speak up with what he knows?

What is Fleet waiting for?

I guess I don't get it. Is EVERYONE deceitful in Boulder?
I doubt that anyone ever will speak out, Sparks. They've seen the price of speaking the truth in this murder case.

Right now, THIS MINUTE, there easily could be EVIDENCE sitting in the BPD evidence room that would be INDISPUTABLE:

If they still have them, there were once THE RAMSEY TELEPHONE RECORDS taken as evidence in the case against the husband and wife convicted of illegally obtaining the info, presumptively to sell to tabs.

We don't know, and maybe that evidence has been destroyed, but it's worth a try...IF the DA REALLY is still investigating the case.

I mean, the one thing that I BELIEVE indicts HUNTER as being in on the fix FROM DAY ONE is that the Ramsey telephone records were NEVER EVER EVER subpoenaed.

NOT TO THIS DAY.

What LE investigator IN THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY would NOT IMMEDIATELY subpoena the phone records of the family in whose home a murdered child's body was found?

IMO, that says it all. Because what we don't know is WHO THE RAMSEYS MIGHT HAVE CALLED IN THE EARLY HOURS OF DEC. 26TH, 1996.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#23


PagingDrDetectMember

koldkase said:
I doubt that anyone ever will speak out, Sparks. They've seen the price of speaking the truth in this murder case.

Right now, THIS MINUTE, there easily could be EVIDENCE sitting in the BPD evidence room that would be INDISPUTABLE:

If they still have them, there were once THE RAMSEY TELEPHONE RECORDS taken as evidence in the case against the husband and wife convicted of illegally obtaining the info, presumptively to sell to tabs.

We don't know, and maybe that evidence has been destroyed, but it's worth a try...IF the DA REALLY is still investigating the case.

I mean, the one thing that I BELIEVE indicts HUNTER as being in on the fix FROM DAY ONE is that the Ramsey telephone records were NEVER EVER EVER subpoenaed.

NOT TO THIS DAY.

What LE investigator IN THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY would NOT IMMEDIATELY subpoena the phone records of the family in whose home a murdered child's body was found?

IMO, that says it all. Because what we don't know is WHO THE RAMSEYS MIGHT HAVE CALLED IN THE EARLY HOURS OF DEC. 26TH, 1996.

Click to expand...
Yep, that's pretty much the size of it. If Hunter was bought from the word "go" (and I believe he was) there's no way on God's green earth that any trace of those phone records are floating around anywhere in a 30 mile radius of Hunter... he would have made sure of that if he had to break in the evidence room in the middle of the night wearing a ski mask his own self.

The only wee possible light at the end of the tunnel is the hope that the people who illegally obtained those phone records was smart enough to retain copies (and secretly buried them in a vacant lot in some other state).
PagingDrDetect, Sep 5, 2006
#24


SpadeMember

koldkase

A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House. Do you suppose that Haddon, who represented Bill Clinton on "Whitewater" tax matters, cashed in a favor?
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#25


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Spade said:
A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House. Do you suppose that Haddon, who represented Bill Clinton on "Whitewater" tax matters, cashed in a favor?
UH...the WHITE HOUSE?

How did THE WHITE HOUSE get into this case? And how did THE WHITE HOUSE end up having records in a murder investigation sealed in a state, with nothing to indicate that there was any federal issue at stake?
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#26


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

MlazyV said:
A law degree is little more than a license to lie and cheat and in some instances do it with the court’s blessings.
I know you've all heard this one:

How can you tell if a lawyer if lying?

His lips are moving.



(Our own Deja Nu excepted, of course.
:)
)
Cherokee, Sep 5, 2006
#27


Show MeFFJ Senior Member

Great thread Spade....the corruption in Boulder is beyond belief!

The Whites always got the short end of the stick when it came to justice in Boulder....while the political buddies protected the Ramseys, even from cooperating with the cops and clearing their names.

One day Haddon, Bynum et al will grow old, slow and with diminishing political clout....then others will take their places and only then will we possibly see justice for JonBenet.

Is Haddon the Pellicano(sp?) of Boulder....I think so.
Show Me, Sep 5, 2006
#28


BarbaraFFJ Senior Member

This is a great thread Spade. Thank you for starting it.

However, after reading this and actually thinking that this case stinks all the way to the White House, makes me a little sad actually that it will NEVER be solved

But we have to keep trying I guess. Hopefully, the RST will hang themselves.

How long before the money runs out to pay these people who are protecting the Ramseys? Will that happen? Can it happen?
Barbara, Sep 5, 2006
#29


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

Spade said:
A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House. Do you suppose that Haddon, who represented Bill Clinton on "Whitewater" tax matters, cashed in a favor?
GOOD GOSH!!! The White House sealed the phone records?! In a state, not federal, murder investigation? Whoa. That's some major chit payback from Clinton. Now that you mention it, I knew Haddon was part of Clinton's army of lawyers, but obviously didn't know about the tit-for-tat favors.

The corruption in the Ramsey case runs so deep and long, it's unbelievable. It's also scary. How in the world will we ever get someone with enough courage and enough political backing to take on the Ramsey/Haddon/Wood juggernaut?

Edited to add: Welcome back, Spade. You've been missed.
Cherokee, Sep 5, 2006
#30


PagingDrDetectMember

Spade said:
A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House. Do you suppose that Haddon, who represented Bill Clinton on "Whitewater" tax matters, cashed in a favor?
Oh Holy Smokes! :banghead: Yep, that'd be it. No question.

Now, where is that mad ripping out great tufts of hair smilie? I really need one of those right now!
PagingDrDetect, Sep 5, 2006
#31


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

When did the White House have the authority to seal records in a murder case? A judge has to issue the order to seal court records, the President has no legal authority to do so.

Where's DejaVu?
Watching You, Sep 5, 2006
#32


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Hang On Hang On....

Haddon--->>The White House--->>Lockheed Martin...one of the Biggest Defense Contractors In The World--->>ACCESS GRAPHICS-->>John Ramsey
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#33


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

Barbara said:
However, after reading this and actually thinking that this case stinks all the way to the White House, makes me a little sad actually that it will NEVER be solved.
That's basically the same thing I was asking, Barbara. What kind of hope do we have if the corruption protecting the Ramseys runs all the way to the White House?

No wonder it's difficult to get any major media attention to expose the corruption and incompentency in Boulder.
Cherokee, Sep 5, 2006
#34


SouthMember

Of course Haddon and Hunter wouldn't risk their careers to help JR if he or Patsy admitted to the crime. I think they were fed a "Burke did it accidently" line.
Haddon and Hunter may have known deep down Burke didn't do it, but it would be more comfortable to pretend to believe he did do it. That way they could tell themselves they were being noble and helping "save" a boy from having his life ruined over an accident.

Burke could have been the first bus victim.

Just my opinion. don't sue me.
South, Sep 5, 2006
#35


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

You know, Shadow? once said that the FBI was the agency that was supposed to take over in the event of a child kidnapping...but it stood down pronto, BEFORE THE BODY WAS FOUND, even when it was STILL A KIDNAPPING. He said ONLY someone very high up in the FBI could give them that order....

It's becoming clearer, isn't it?
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#36


BarbaraFFJ Senior Member

Cherokee said:
That's basically the same thing I was asking, Barbara. What kind of hope do we have if the corruption protecting the Ramseys runs all the way to the White House?

No wonder it's difficult to get any major media attention to expose the corruption and incompentency in Boulder.
This bit of info for me, has placed the exclamation point on what we already know

If they were sealed, that's a pretty big order and if you need to cash in that big of a favor, the reasons must be pretty serious.

Ouch! this really hurts
Barbara, Sep 5, 2006
#37


TexanFFJ Senior Member

phone records

I don't think the Ram's phone records could be used according to ITRI because the Rapps got those phone records first. I don't remember why but that is what I remember from the book.
Texan, Sep 5, 2006
#38


SpadeMember

Whoa!

WY etal.
Do not confuse court records with phone records. Phone records (#'s called only) have been kept by the feds for years. The White House has absolute authority to keep prying eyes away.

Tricia has been aware of the details of this attempt to prove the Door #3 timeline since the beginning. We are not in the least bit discouraged by this display of power.

LE does have the phone records and they are reported to have been turned over to the GJ. Add this information to your list of why Mary Keenan/Lacy knew John Mark Karr was innocent before she made an international media specticle out of him.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#39


heymomMember

Barbara said:
This bit of info for me, has placed the exclamation point on what we already know

If they were sealed, that's a pretty big order and if you need to cash in that big of a favor, the reasons must be pretty serious.

Ouch! this really hurts
Yep, it's all starting to become crystal clear. And it's not a pretty picture. :scream:
heymom, Sep 5, 2006
#40

Pages 3 - 7 still to come......
 
Ack! There are 6 more pages, which I added as replies to my first post, to work around word limits. They showed as posted, but.....oh well. I will work on getting those to you today. The information is pretty eye opening.

Lawyering JonBenet Page 3

koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

I once saw an attorney from Denver on TV discussing the fact that he worked in Security for Lockheed Martin at the time JB was "kidnapped," and that their protocol in the event of a "terrorist kidnapping" was that every exec working for that company would be at risk, notified, go into an immediate, pre-designed protection by security provided by the company, etc.

But this lawyer said NO ONE CALLED HIM OR NOTIFIED HIM about the threats in the ransom note on Dec. 26th. He didn't understand why, and he said this outright.

He said that this was a breach of the company's own kidnapping protocol.

You see, what almost nobody talks about anymore (because what info do we have about it, though it once was discussed somewhat) is that the kidnapping of any LM executive's family by a "foreign faction" already had a plan in place for a company response. This is not some aberation, after all. In many third world countries, or even countries like Italy, kidnapping is in fact a well-structured and long dealt with industry. It's why Mercedes has its D class of cars with bullet-proof glass and construction, like the one Princess Diana was in when she was in her fatal crash. Very rich and powerful people who travel the world over use these cars for a reason. They travel in countries with unstable governments, where different terrorist groups engaging in civil war and military coups use kidnapping to finance their existence, buying weapons, ammo, etc.

A company like Lockheed sells weapons the world over. Our country, as everyone knows, buys plenty of fighter planes, etc., from it. Other countries do, as well.

I suggest if you really want to know how corruption works, rent the movie with Nicolas Cage where he portrays an arms dealer. Believe me...it's fiction in the most elemental ways. It's truth in the worst way.

http://www.amazon.com/Lord-of-War/dp/B00005JOHU
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#41


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

Spade said:
WY etal.
Do not confuse court records with phone records. Phone records (#'s called only) have been kept by the feds for years. The White House has absolute authority to keep prying eyes away.

Tricia has been aware of the details of this attempt to prove the Door #3 timeline since the beginning. We are not in the least bit discouraged by this display of power.

LE does have the phone records and they are reported to have been turned over to the GJ. Add this information to your list of why Mary Keenan/Lacy knew John Mark Karr was innocent before she made an international media specticle out of him.
Click to expand...
Okay, I don't get it. Why would these entities protect John Ramsey, who was a little fish in that vast ocean. Who was Ramsey to Hal Hadden? Who was the real power player in all this? Bynum? Hadden? But, why?

Money? Ohmygawd, they did it for money? Is that what happened?
Watching You, Sep 5, 2006
#42


heymomMember

Watching You said:
Okay, I don't get it. Why would these entities protect John Ramsey, who was a little fish in that vast ocean. Who was Ramsey to Hal Hadden? Who was the real power player in all this? Bynum? Hadden? But, why?

Money? Ohmygawd, they did it for money? Is that what happened?
Maybe Ramsey had some information that would damage someone else if allowed to leak out. That would gain him some special treatment. And money doesn't hurt either. But the political favors speak to something in addition to money.

:shutup:
heymom, Sep 5, 2006
#43


SpadeMember

My Opinion

IMO no bribe money has ever changed hands in this case, other than Haddon kicking over Kobe's rape victim to LinWad so Kobe could pay her off and LinWad would get a cut.

IMO It was all done "in the best interests of the child"; the unprosecutable child/children that were responsible for JonBenet's death.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#44


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Texan said:
I don't think the Ram's phone records could be used according to ITRI because the Rapps got those phone records first. I don't remember why but that is what I remember from the book.
The BPD could not see them or have access to them because Hunter REFUSED TO GET A SUBPOENA FOR THEM.

It's that simple.

Even if the records could eventually be thrown out of court, they could be subpoenaed and LE could SEE what calls were made to and from the house on the night a child was murdered.

Ask yourselves THIS people: if you were investigating a child murder like this, WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO KNOW WHO HAD CALLED THE RAMSEYS, WHOM THEY CALLED, IN THE MONTHS BEFORE, EVEN IF YOU BELIEVED AN INTRUDER COMMITTED THE CRIME?

Think about it. Would you consider it POSSIBLE that the killer might have contacted the Ramseys in some way? To check to see if they were home, for instance? As a stalker, maybe? Claiming to be a cable company salesman?

If you were the parent of such a dead child, WOULDN'T YOU OR YOUR SO-CALLED INVESTIGATORS BE ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS?

NO WAY that there weren't legitimate reasons for those records to be supoenaed by LE IMMEDIATELY.

There is NO ARGUMENT for that not being done.

NONE.

EVER.

PERIOD.

HUNTER WAS IN ON THE COVER UP.

LACY IS CONTINUING IN THAT TRADITION. THEY ALL ARE.

And to make themselves FEEL HUMAN, INSTEAD OF LIKE THE MONSTERS THEY HAVE BECOME IN THEIR GREED AND LIES...they convince themselves it was AN INTRUDER! Now, no REASON to get the phone records and hound the poor, poor, innocent Ramseys....

Chit! Now I've gone and got started again.... :rage:
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#45


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

I think it was as simple as John Ramsey worked for Lockheed Martin, and LM didn't want the world press to be reporting that an executive who worked for them had a molested daughter six years old murdered by her father/mother/brother/some or all.

It's not good publicity.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#46


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Spade said:
IMO no bribe money has ever changed hands in this case, other than Haddon kicking over Kobe's rape victim to LinWad so Kobe could pay her off and LinWad would get a cut.

IMO It was all done "in the best interests of the child"; the unprosecutable child/children that were responsible for JonBenet's death.
But Spade, why would some benevolent power, for "the best interest of the child/children," then go after countless other innocent people to cover up what was not prosecutable at any rate?

That makes no sense to me. Child records would be sealed forever, anyway. Why offer up so many bus victims when simply having the child counseled in private with records sealed would be so easy?
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#47


SpadeMember

Pathological

IMO they all went pathological or more bluntly they became baffled by their own BS.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#48


amsterMember

ugh....David Lane on O'Reilly.....Boulder is a city of "tolerance". But Lacy screwed up and will probably be gone.

"Getting the government off our back" is the motto in Boulder.

This guy is Churchills lawyer...not a peep about Tracey.
amster, Sep 5, 2006
#49


JoeJamemember

I've always believed this was a big conspiracy......relating to politics and/or religion. Isn't that the world in a nut shell, concerning most everything? but it is terribly sad when the death of a 6 yr. old is allowed to be handled in this way. Our world is going down hill and fast....it has been for a while. I believe if all the truths were to ever be told/known in this case, we'd all drop our jaws to the floor in horror.. I always say be the change you want to see in other people, but with each passing day, that becomes much harder for me. Especially when innocence is made to suffer.
JoeJame, Sep 5, 2006
#50


wombatMember

Spade said:
A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House. Do you suppose that Haddon, who represented Bill Clinton on "Whitewater" tax matters, cashed in a favor?
No, regarding this entire post.

However, the records are sealed by order of the White House.
Especially this part. No. This knoll is not that grassy.
wombat, Sep 5, 2006
#51


SpadeMember

wombat

Are you saying that I am lying? Let me repeat myself:

"A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House."

You may disagree with my opinion but please don't attempt to dispute my account of a personal experience. Why lie in a case where the truth is more bizarre than anything you can dream of?
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#52


JoeJamemember

Spade said:
Are you saying that I am lying? Let me repeat myself:

"A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House."

You may disagree with my opinion but please don't attempt to dispute my account of a personal experience. Why lie in a case where the truth is more bizarre than anything you can dream of?
I believe it!!! That is exactly what I believe. The truth in all of this is going to be way more bizarre than any of us can imagine....I'll bet my bottom dollar on it. thanks for the info spade.
JoeJame, Sep 5, 2006
#53


wombatMember

Spade said:
Are you saying that I am lying? Let me repeat myself:

"A good friend came very close to getting his hands on the 12/25/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Peter Hofstrom, and Bryan Morgan. However, the records are sealed by order of the White House."

You may disagree with my opinion but please don't attempt to dispute my account of a personal experience. Why lie in a case where the truth is more bizarre than anything you can dream of?
I don't think you are lying. I believe you when you say that a good friend came close to getting phone records, whoever that friend is. I wish he got the records, then we wouldn't have had this Karr fiasco. What I don't believe is that the "White House" interfered in the investigation of the JonBenet murder case.

I can dream of very bizarre things, have been involved in nasty politics, and have been affected by bigger crimes than this one, and I know that Big Presidents Do Bad Things. Rumors fly, conspiracy theories crop up, and the simplest explanations go by the wayside.

I guess I reacted to the cloak-and-dagger tone of your post. Plus I am a Clinton fan, full disclosure. (Bad, bad wombat!!)

Access Graphics was a distributor of servers for AutoCAD, and of other now-obsolete hardware for 90s-era programs. It was bought by Lockheed to fit into their design business, after Access got a contract to distribute Sun Microsystems servers etc. Lockheed only held the company for a couple of years before selling it to GE, where it still resides.

I don't for a minute think that John Ramsey had anything to do with ICBMs or some of the other fun things Lockheed builds. He was a purchased asset that was divested when the company revised its business concept. The company had "one billlion dollars in sales" over a few years, with a margin, I am GUESSING, of ten percent over that time, maybe. These are not Halliburton dollars.

Regarding Hal Haddon - I read and understand all the posts here that point arrows at his firm for blocking the investigation. Phone calls were made, and another rich white guy was protected. I would bet the proverbial left nut of BobC that all of that was more about separating John Ramsey from his $7 million net worth than anything else.
wombat, Sep 5, 200
#54


SpadeMember

wombat

I was told directly that access to the phone records for the numbers requested was blocked by the White House. Hal Haddon is a dot the i and cross the t kind of guy. That truly is why he gets the big bucks.

Edited to add: Full disclosure: I am also a big fan of Bill Clinton. IMO Money had nothing to with this coverup. Haddon convinced everyone involved that they were acting in the best interests of the child. However, I will guarantee you that the child was NOT JonBenet Ramsey.
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#55


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Well, maybe, wombat.

But I don't think it's any accident that the Ramseys were able to keep their phone records out of the hands of LE, and when a year later they "turned over" selective records, surprisingly, the month of Dec. on one cell phone was blank, though the months before on that phone had plenty of activity. Of course, without a subpoena, LE did not get to see those previous months of phone records, either. Not any of the Ramseys phone records were gotten by subpoena. A year went by, and the Ramseys CHOSE which records they handed over to LE then. To this day, no subpoena for the Ramsey phone records has ever been requested by a Boulder DA.

Sorry, this is NOT POSSIBLE IN ANY MURDER INVESTIGATION IN THIS COUNTRY. Not without POWERFUL STRINGS being pulled. I don't believe John Ramsey had that kind of money.

The White House? I have no idea. If Spade has seen/heard something about this, I'm willing to listen and grateful for him sharing.

But I believe not that AG was some top defense contractor's important little secret, but that Lockheed Martin is like any huge, powerful government backed war machine: they do what they want, when they want it, for any reason they choose to do it.

I, too, am a Clinton supporter. I believe he was a great president and I don't find a man getting a *advertiser censored* a national issue I care about. I don't believe Spade has stated that Clinton was asked to help cover up a child murder in Colorado. A lot of people work for the White House and the President. Spade gave no details, so I have no idea what he saw or believes. I do believe that if you know the right people, things get done for you.

And that is what I think happened in this murder case. I also believe that Haddon's firm could have done the whole deal right there in Colorado all by itself, because it's the land of the rich and famous, ski resorts, uber celebrities, where the golden rule will always apply: he who has the gold rules.

But I have to say that I have never seen such a legal mess in my life, and whatever the truth is, I doubt any of us would even believe it if we knew all the facts.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#56


sueMember

Even hearing that the Ramseys got "lawyered up" within a week of the 'kidnapping' was shocking and just not what you expect innocent people to do. Hearing that the 'lawyering' might have happened even before her body was 'discovered' is just mind boggling.
sue, Sep 5, 2006
#57


wombatMember

Spade said:
I was told directly that access to the phone records for the numbers requested was blocked by the White House. Hal Haddon is a dot the i and cross the t kind of guy. That truly is why he gets the big bucks.
You were told directly BY WHOM? Who was told BY WHOM that the numbers were blocked BY WHOM at the White House? Without sources, I regret that I can't discuss this as anything but rumor. JMO.

I love a good high level conspiracy as much as the next guy, but I need more here.....

:sleep:

Editing - KoldKase beat me to the post - Love the *advertiser censored* reference!!!

Really, I can buy that some feds helped Haddon and/or did his bidding, but the original post was ...shhhh....I know somebody who knows somebody who says the White House is involved. I say, please tell me who and why, or I can't play.

I can tell that Spade has some juice, I would like to hear more. With plausible attribution.
wombat, Sep 5, 2006
#58


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Spade said:
I was told directly that access to the phone records for the numbers requested was blocked by the White House. Hal Haddon is a dot the i and cross the t kind of guy. That truly is why he gets the big bucks.

Edited to add: Full disclosure: I am also a big fan of Bill Clinton. IMO Money had nothing to with this coverup. Haddon convinced everyone involved that they were acting in the best interests of the child. However, I will guarantee you that the child was NOT JonBenet Ramsey.
In that case, I guess we know if Lacy simply blundered into an "intruder" arrest, she must have been given her orders before the first press conference: dump it.

Because no way was a defense attorney going to try to defend Karr with the world watching its every move and NOT ask for things the BDA NEVER DID in ten years of ALLEGED investigation.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#59


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

sue said:
Even hearing that the Ramseys got "lawyered up" within a week of the 'kidnapping' was shocking and just not what you expect innocent people to do. Hearing that the 'lawyering' might have happened even before her body was 'discovered' is just mind boggling.
Oh, our minds have been boggled for years over this case. Even O.J. didn't have it this good.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#60

Pages 4 - 7 still to come...
 
Lawyering JonBenet Page 4

wombatMember

Spade said:
Haddon convinced everyone involved that they were acting in the best interests of the child. However, I will guarantee you that the child was NOT JonBenet Ramsey.
More obtuse spy v. spy stuff. You mean Burke? Or some other kid?

Do you have something big to lose by saying what you mean? If you don't, please draw the whole picture. If you do, can we just take this info and its source to a bigtime reporter and stop beating around the bush? Or just get it posted here.

It's ten years, most statutes of limitations have run, there was just a big media brouhaha that obscured the Katrina anniversary - you and the people who tell you stuff should just go ahead and leak the info. Give it to me, and I'll go down to Dupont Circle and knock a reporter off a barstool.

I believe you, by the way. I'm just impatient this week, with the yawning quiet after the storm.
wombat, Sep 5, 2006
#61


SpadeMember

wombat

Thanks for believing me. It's not my job to accuse anyone of murder. Much less Burke Ramsey who couldn't be charged with the murder of JonBenet.

I have shared information from my interviews with Fleet White, Lou Smit, and many other case principals. Do you have any personal experience in this case that you might want to share?
Spade, Sep 5, 2006
#62


wombatMember

Spade said:
Do you have any personal experience in this case that you might want to share?
None at all. I'm just a citizen-spectator from far away. I hope that FFJ gets to the truth sometime, and some justice for the little dead girl. I'm not trying to get you to point a finger at anyone, but you apparently know some things that lead towards the truth. Point at those things so that people can find them.
wombat, Sep 5, 2006
#63

koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Wombat, I feel your pain. I've been begging for YEARS for those who actually KNOW the truth to JUST SPILL IT.

But alas, I think your Dupont Circle reporters are safe. It's like DeepThroat, isn't it? In order to tell us the truth, somebody is going to go down for it. In this case, it's a house of cards. If once "source" gets revealed, how many others fall?

Remember, wombat, the enhanced 911 tape was played on at least two tv shows in a period of a few hours some time before May of 2000. That's a fact at least I KNOW because I HEARD IT. Then not only did the enhanced 911 tape which was played disappear from any other airing or any future discussion of the airing, but not one reporter, producer, or any other person involved with those airings who knows the truth about this will tell about what happened to those broadcasts nor why they were silenced and forever purged from any record which would prove that they ever existed. Have you ever heard of such a thing? Who has that kind of power?

Do you think for one minute that could happen today? Never. Copies would be all over the internet. But it happened then. And one day, it will also come out. I can't wait to find out who had the power to call up a network and get them to pull and bury that tape and the fact that it aired.

I guess my point is that plenty of UNBELIEVABLE power plays were gotten away with in this case. It's BEYOND BELIEF. But they did it. And they still do it. AND TO THIS DAY, WHO IS NAMING NAMES?

Nobody, that's who.
koldkase, Sep 5, 2006
#64


KangatruthMember

Well I'd have to agree that what ever the truth IS in this affair it will make fiction pale by comparison..
I posted a similar thought elsewhere..but readddresit here as it has same relevance,The FBI has teh jurisdiction .,..indeed the job of Investigating Corruption of Public Office.. and if this case doesnt qualify...then what ??... right from the outset th ecase was derailed by collusionbetween those supposedly investigating the case and those whose interest was in defending it or assuring it never got going!!.

By everyones account the BDA has been seen to be suspect in intention and diligence. I would have thought it a slam dunk as a prime face for investigation by the FEDS....and note..Im suggeting the FBI investigate th eOffice per se...not the ramsey case....thats just a by product..and hopefully the fall out would start the chain reaction to the truth finally coming out.

more than one way to skin a cat as they say !!
Kangatruth, Sep 6, 2006
#65


tylinBanned

Spade said:
IMO It was all done "in the best interests of the child"; the unprosecutable child/children that were responsible for JonBenet's death.
But what if the child/children didn't cause JonBenet's death? What if a parent did? Would all this have occurred?
tylin, Sep 6, 2006
#66


KangatruthMember

The feeling I have...and admittedly its from a long ways away..some its somewhat tennuous.. is ..forget for the moment what was the motive ( if any ) for the murder ..though iportant it doesnt tell us nearly as much as who or what is the motive for everything that followed..

To me...everything seems to be to protect John Ramsey ( those associated get the same protection by proximity ).

Everything is geared to keep John away from the flames.
So it then begs the question...who stands to lose if John loses ??

a right it was the lawyering up that is the give away!!
Last edited: Sep 6, 2006
Kangatruth, Sep 6, 2006
#67


TriciaAdministratorStaff Member

Spade, glad to see you back. We need you
:)


Guys, Spade can explain things all by his lonesome, doesn't need my help but I do want to let you know a few things.

I trust Spade and his source(s). I have spoken with Spade about this and I know his sources are EXCELLENT! Spade has been very generous to share all kinds of information and documents with us. Without Spade we would be missing some very important pieces to the puzzle.

I don't think Clinton himself gave the orders. Haddon just called in a big a$$ favor inside the White House and someone buried the records. I think it's that simple. Just my opinion and Spade, feel free to correct me.

Spade, I know these people at FFJ. They are not questioning your truthfullness, they just want to know more about the story. I think you have knocked a few of us for a loop here. This is pretty big stuff.
Tricia, Sep 6, 2006
#68


heymomMember

tylin said:
But what if the child/children didn't cause JonBenet's death? What if a parent did? Would all this have occurred?
I think it happened because the parents did it and lied to the attorneys, or told the attorneys the truth and then the attorneys/DA told them what to say and do. I don't think BDI. Which means it was lies from the git-go.

Heymom
heymom, Sep 6, 2006
#69


wombatMember

Tricia said:
Spade, glad to see you back. We need you
:)


Guys, Spade can explain things all by his lonesome, doesn't need my help but I do want to let you know a few things.

I trust Spade and his source(s). I have spoken with Spade about this and I know his sources are EXCELLENT! Spade has been very generous to share all kinds of information and documents with us. Without Spade we would be missing some very important pieces to the puzzle.

I don't think Clinton himself gave the orders. Haddon just called in a big a$$ favor inside the White House and someone buried the records. I think it's that simple. Just my opinion and Spade, feel free to correct me.

Spade, I know these people at FFJ. They are not questioning your truthfullness, they just want to know more about the story. I think you have knocked a few of us for a loop here. This is pretty big stuff.
Click to expand...
Yes, knocked for a loop is a good way to put it.

In a way, if all this stuff is true, and it does go to very high places, then it is a bigger steak to chew for the esteemed fourth estate, and it's more likely that some investigative reporter should love it.

Spade is stating this stuff to hungry dogs who want to chew on any bone (me, KoldKase, etc.) WE WANT MORE INFO! WE CAN HANDLE THE THE TRUTH!

Somebody needs to find the equivalent of the tape over the office doorknob from the Watergate affair.

And PS Tricia why are you posting in the middle of the night? Such dedication! This is why we love you.
wombat, Sep 6, 2006
#70


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

Saying something came down from the White House could mean many things - like the President didn't have anything to do with any of it. The President's advisors also have plenty of power there, and they don't always work in concert with the President. Anyone inside the White House could have buried those records. But, I'm like wombat - I want to know who, why, how, where, and when.

Didn't ST say in his book that the phone records for the night in question were in the evidence room - put there through some other effort - but, because Hunter refused to issue a search warrant for them, the police investigators were not allowed to have them?
Watching You, Sep 6, 2006
#71


BarbaraFFJ Senior Member

I'm with you guys. I am a big Clinton fan and would just hate to think that Clinton would help obstruct justice in a murder case. But you are right, I would love to know the details as well.

I have always said that (in regards to Clinton) no mother is burying her son or daugher because Clinton got a *advertiser censored* in the oval office.

Now if someone just had a strong enough stomach to do this for Bush................... maybe we could impeach him? :yuck:
Barbara, Sep 6, 2006
#72


wombatMember

Barbara said:
I'm with you guys. I am a big Clinton fan and would just hate to think that Clinton would help obstruct justice in a murder case. But you are right, I would love to know the details as well.

I have always said that (in regards to Clinton) no mother is burying her son or daugher because Clinton got a *advertiser censored* in the oval office.

Now if someone just had a strong enough stomach to do this for Bush................... maybe we could impeach him? :yuck:
Barbara!!! EEEEWWWW!
wombat, Sep 6, 2006
#73


BarbaraFFJ Senior Member

wombat said:
Barbara!!! EEEEWWWW!
:D
Barbara, Sep 6, 2006
#74


SpadeMember

#10 Judge Bellipanni

In 1998, the abrupt resignation of Joe Bellipanni as the presiding GJ judge was a stong indication of how deep the "fix" was.

Judge Bellipanni picked the Grand Jury members and was very outspoken about how they were going to solve this mystery. In 1997, Bellipanni had been named "judge of the year" by the state bar association. The day after selecting the jurors and giving an interview to the Boulder Camera, where he stated how much he was looking forward to this challange; Joe Bellipanni resigned and moved to Cairo, Egypt.

He was immediately replaced by Roxanne Bailin, friend and book co-author with Patrick Burke. (Patsy Ramsey's lawyer)
Spade, Sep 6, 2006
#75


KangatruthMember

is Bellipanni still alive..or did he suffer some car accident on the way to Cheops !! accidental of course...these things always are arent they !!

talk about getting out of town!! must have been spooked big time.. or did he win a condo on the Nile all of a sudden ?
Kangatruth, Sep 6, 2006
#76


SpadeMember

Bellipanni

Bellipanni is alive and living in Boulder. He refuses to comment on his JonBenet experiences. This is his resume:

Joseph Bellipanni, a former District Judge in the Twentieth Judicial District of Colorado (Boulder) joined the Judicial Arbiter Group, Inc. in the fall of 2002. First appointed to the Boulder County Court in 1983, Bellipanni was appointed to the District Court bench in 1984 where he served for fourteen years until 1998. The last twelve years of his District Court service was spent as Chief Judge. Joe Bellipanni received his undergraduate degree from Loyola University in Chicago. He joined the VIDA volunteer program and taught high school and junior high in Walsenburg, Colorado. He received his Juris Doctor from the University of Colorado School of Law and was admitted to the Bar in Colorado in 1976. Joe Bellipanni began his post-law school career by serving as a clerk for then Colorado Supreme Court Chief Justice Edward Pringle. He was in private practice with the Denver law firm of Davis, Graham & Stubbs from 1977 until his first judicial appointment in 1983. While at Davis, Graham & Stubbs, Joe Bellipanni’s practice emphasized general civil, commercial and constitutional litigation.

In 1995, the Colorado Judicial Department recognized Bellipanni as its Judicial Officer of the Year. While as a judge, he served on a number of committees including the Multi-Disciplinary Committee on Family Law, the Colorado Chief Judges’ Council, the Judicial Educational Planning Committee and the Supreme Court Criminal Rules Committee. He was a presenter at a number of program and seminars that concerned civil,
commercial and domestic issues. After leaving the bench in 1998, Bellipanni served as Chief of Party and Senior Judicial Advisor for the USAID-funded Administration of Justice Support Project in Cairo, Egypt. In those roles, Bellipanni worked with Ministry of Justice officials, judges and staff to improve case management and judicial education.
Spade, Sep 6, 2006
#77


Ploppy_SlopperMember

Barbara said:
I'm with you guys. I am a big Clinton fan and would just hate to think that Clinton would help obstruct justice in a murder case. But you are right, I would love to know the details as well.

I have always said that (in regards to Clinton) no mother is burying her son or daugher because Clinton got a *advertiser censored* in the oval office.

Now if someone just had a strong enough stomach to do this for Bush................... maybe we could impeach him? :yuck:
Hehe... it would have to be someone who likes the taste of whiskey and cocaine (just thought I'd add another degree of nastiness there)
:D
Ploppy_Slopper, Sep 6, 2006
#78


tylinBanned

heymom said:
I think it happened because the parents did it and lied to the attorneys, or told the attorneys the truth and then the attorneys/DA told them what to say and do. I don't think BDI. Which means it was lies from the git-go.

Heymom
Heymom,
That's what I think happened too. I've never thought Burke was involved in his sister's death because he was awfully young when the murder occured. And imo, there is no way he had the strength to cause her head wound.
tylin, Sep 6, 2006
#79


CarolMember

If President Bush had been in the White House in 1996 I'm sure reporters would be much more interested in this phone record cover-up.
Carol, Sep 6, 2006
#80
 
Lawyering JonBenet Page 5


ElleMember

KoldKase: But alas, I think your Dupont Circle reporters are safe. It's like DeepThroat, isn't it? In order to tell us the truth, somebody is going to go down for it. In this case, it's a house of cards. If once "source" gets revealed, how many others fall?
AYE, THERE'S THE RUB, koldkase!
Elle, Sep 6, 2006
#81


ElleMember

Spade said:
In 1998, the abrupt resignation of Joe Bellipanni as the presiding GJ judge was a stong indication of how deep the "fix" was.

Judge Bellipanni picked the Grand Jury members and was very outspoken about how they were going to solve this mystery. In 1997, Bellipanni had been named "judge of the year" by the state bar association. The day after selecting the jurors and giving an interview to the Boulder Camera, where he stated how much he was looking forward to this challange; Joe Bellipanni resigned and moved to Cairo, Egypt.

He was immediately replaced by Roxanne Bailin, friend and book co-author with Patrick Burke. (Patsy Ramsey's lawyer)
Good grief! No one needs to draw us any pictures after reading this lot, do they posters of FFJ?

Thank you, Spade!
Elle, Sep 6, 2006
#82


TrilMember

Originally posted by Spade:

However, the records are sealed by order of the White House.
Can you verify this? What's your source for this statement?
Tril, Sep 6, 2006
#83


SpadeMember

Tril

As I posted earlier, several years ago I asked a friend who has served our country for many years, to try to get the 12/25-26/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Bryan Morgan, and Peter Hofstrom. When he accessed the database, he found that everyone of the requested records had been "sealed" by order of the White House.

This does not mean that President Clinton was directly involved. However, Hal Haddon represented Bill and Hillary in "Whitewater" related tax matters.

Hope that answers your question.
Spade, Sep 6, 2006
#84


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Spade said:
In 1998, the abrupt resignation of Joe Bellipanni as the presiding GJ judge was a stong indication of how deep the "fix" was.

Judge Bellipanni picked the Grand Jury members and was very outspoken about how they were going to solve this mystery. In 1997, Bellipanni had been named "judge of the year" by the state bar association. The day after selecting the jurors and giving an interview to the Boulder Camera, where he stated how much he was looking forward to this challange; Joe Bellipanni resigned and moved to Cairo, Egypt.

He was immediately replaced by Roxanne Bailin, friend and book co-author with Patrick Burke. (Patsy Ramsey's lawyer)
Egypt is looking pretty good to me about now, actually....
koldkase, Sep 6, 2006
#85


ElleMember

Spade said:
In 1998, the abrupt resignation of Joe Bellipanni as the presiding GJ judge was a stong indication of how deep the "fix" was.

Judge Bellipanni picked the Grand Jury members and was very outspoken about how they were going to solve this mystery. In 1997, Bellipanni had been named "judge of the year" by the state bar association. The day after selecting the jurors and giving an interview to the Boulder Camera, where he stated how much he was looking forward to this challange; Joe Bellipanni resigned and moved to Cairo, Egypt.

He was immediately replaced by Roxanne Bailin, friend and book co-author with Patrick Burke. (Patsy Ramsey's lawyer)
Fixed for sure, Spade! This just keeps getting worse, doesn't it? Something's got to give!
Elle, Sep 6, 2006
#86


SpadeMember

IMO Why

I would like to give you my opinion as to why the tragedy of JonBenet's death has been lawyered the way it has. This is only my opinion...

I don't know who killed JonBenet Ramsey. I can develop arguable cases against several people. However, I do believe that John and Patsy Ramsey knew the killer(s) and were willing to assist them in covering up the circumstances of JonBenet's death.

1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when “the intimidation beganâ€.)

"Handling things" is also a direct quote from Fleet White. IMO the death of JonBenet was not a prosecutable event. If the Door #3 timeline is accurate, and John Ramsey called Bynum in the middle of the night...then Bynum's first logical act is to research the law on the circumstances of JonBenet's death as they were related to him by John Ramsey. If the results of Bynum's research was to discover that the person (s) who caused JonBenet's death are not prosecutable...the Ramsey's need a lawyer to "handle things. Haddon and Morgan were the perfect choice.

2. Hofstrom and DeMuth spent the early days of the case taking phone calls in Bynum’s office (per ST’s book).

The fix was in already and Hofstrom and DeMuth didn't want to get trapped in a tapped phone in the DA's office.

3. Haddon had his PI’s on the street early AM 12/27/96, often beating the BPD to witnesses.
Haddon job was to obfuscate the facts. He did it well.

I'll start a new post on #4 thru #11
Spade, Sep 6, 2006
#87


Deja NuBanned

Spade said:
I would like to give you my opinion as to why the tragedy of JonBenet's death has been lawyered the way it has. This is only my opinion...

I don't know who killed JonBenet Ramsey. I can develop arguable cases against several people. However, I do believe that John and Patsy Ramsey knew the killer(s) and were willing to assist them in covering up the circumstances of JonBenet's death.

1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when “the intimidation beganâ€.)

"Handling things" is also a direct quote from Fleet White. IMO the death of JonBenet was not a prosecutable event. If the Door #3 timeline is accurate, and John Ramsey called Bynum in the middle of the night...then Bynum's first logical act is to research the law on the circumstances of JonBenet's death as they were related to him by John Ramsey. If the results of Bynum's research was to discover that the person (s) who caused JonBenet's death are not prosecutable...the Ramsey's need a lawyer to "handle things. Haddon and Morgan were the perfect choice.

2. Hofstrom and DeMuth spent the early days of the case taking phone calls in Bynum’s office (per ST’s book).

The fix was in already and Hofstrom and DeMuth didn't want to get trapped in a tapped phone in the DA's office.

3. Haddon had his PI’s on the street early AM 12/27/96, often beating the BPD to witnesses.
Haddon job was to obfuscate the facts. He did it well.

I'll start a new post on #4 thru #11
Click to expand...
Hey Spade! Good to see you again, my friend! This is quite the bombshell you've dropped and I've no reason to question your sources or claims. But you know me, gotta add my two cents but would love to read your comments on them.

First of all, let me address the intimidation of Fleet White within 4 hours after the body was "found." Think about it, FFJ'ers, any homicide can be solved and successfully prosecuted by 3 very profound pieces of evidence: (1) a confession that supports the evidence; (2) forensic, actually DNA evidence, linking a suspect to the crime itself, and (3) a solid witness. Most of the time in homicide cases, these very vital pieces of evidence don't exist or are, at very best, circumstantial, leaving a wide room for reasonable doubt.

But in the Ramsey case, there WAS a very solid witness, the heretofore best friend of John Ramsey who was at his side through four very crucial events in the case: (1) the Whites Christmas party where they last saw JB alive; (2) the basement window and suitcase "intruder evidence"; (3) the first thorough search of the Hellhole, and more importantly, (4) the "discovery" of the body and crime scene (the "dump" site portion). At the point where the body was "found," JR was sure that no DNA evidence could be extracted because they wiped the body down. And he was hellbent sure there would be no confession by anyone while he was glued to Patsy's side until she took her last breath ensuring that there would be no confession. The only remaining critical piece of evidence that could have ever convicted any Ramsey was Fleet White and his FIRSTHAND EYEWITNESS testimony not to the crimes themselves but every other feature of this case that could have conclusively led to a successful prosecution. Bynum did not have to do any legal research. Bynum is a very well educated and long experienced attorney who heard a client explanation of a homicide. He knew instantly what was going on like any seasoned attorney would, where the "weak links" in a defense case were and what had to be done. He may have been on the ski slopes when he got the cell call, but don't think for a NY minute he had to spend any time checking the law books or getting Haddon on the line. I've done it, I've seen it done, and it all happens in a NY minute lining up a solid defense for a wealthy client. AND intimidating the ONLY person who could unravel the entire defense. Fleet didn't even have to open his mouth; his goose was literally cooked just by the fact that he was crucially involved. That's it. Fleet White posed the ONLY non-eradicating threat to Ramsey freedom and, as we've all come to know Fleet over the years, he would never succumb to intimidation by anyone. That's why we all love the man, he has integrity that puts the Rock of Gibraltar to shame.

Now as to the Ramseys' phone records, according to ST, BPD made a very early formal request to AH, a tight friend of Haddon's and Bynum's, for a subpoena for phone records. AH did not decline the request but just didn't act on it. As KK posted earlier, it took a year for BPD to get legal access to them only to discover that the crucial records for the month preceding and during JB's death were missing, not sealed under any order. I've long posted WHO in Boulder Backwoods Colorado had the power to get the phone company to erase a customer's phone records. There was no need to get any order from anyone outside CO, not even the White House, because Haddon has and always will as long as he's alive the absolute right power connections in CO to make things appear and disappear at will. Why would he? Was it to assist innocent parents cover up the death of their daughter in protection of their son? Or was it a favor to Access Graphics bigwigs who didn't want any embarassment? And who called off the FBI? My guess is it was all about JR's money. Period.

Furthermore, the White House is not part of the judicial system in this country and therefore doesn't have the authority to order anything. That's why it takes an act of Congress to get anything done. The only order that can be issued at the White House level is an executive order, and that can only be done by any sitting U.S. president. So in order for there to be an "order" sealing Ramsey phone records, it would have been the president himself to issue it. That's not gonna happen. One, it would be political suicide and two, it leaves a paper trail of presidential involvement in the coverup of a crime, a highly prosecutable offense even for a president.

Does that mean that someone else in the White House could "off the record" accomplish the same purpose? I have no doubt that happens every day. No phone records, nothing in writing arranging it, no evidence of even a phone call discussing it. But BPD could not possibly have seen something that didn't exist, phone records or an off-the-record arrangement to delete them.

Think about this also. Those phone records would still exist even if they were under any kind of seal. That means they would always remain vulnerable to exposure should the seal be breached or revoked, which is ALWAYS a possiblity given enough time. If I wanted to hide vital info that would convict my clients, would I take that risk? Or would it be far more prudent to just use my nefarious power to have them ERASED? I'm no Hal Haddon, but I'd opt to erase, not preserve, even under seal. No one would EVER be the wiser and my clients would forever be protected from that incriminating evidence.

It is SOP to get phone records in homicide cases. Happens every day, multiple times a day, in every state in this country, by simple subpoena. And the phone companies comply with them every day. Why not this case? Wouldn't the Ramseys and their lawyers WANT phone records disclosed if they truly believed someone else killed their daughter and just might have contacted the family prior? And wouldn't it be especially crucial for the Ramseys and their team to encourage receipt of phone records for the 26th and 27th when they were, at that time, insisting that this was a kidnapping and the kidnappers were going to call for the ransom money? Yet those records suddenly vanished as well! It's just like why the Ramseys refused to permit JB's body to be exhumed so that Lou could PROVE his stun gun theory. They knew damn well no stun gun was ever used on their daughter and couldn't take the risk. Also bear in mind that there were at least 2 sets of phone records to be gotten in this case, cell phone records and land line records. ALL were missing! And we've never heard a word about any efforts to obtain phone records for JR's office number at AG. How interesting is THAT?

Lastly, let me say that at the time this lawyering network was formed, either before or after the "discovery" of the body, none of these players ever anticipated that this case would become the giant pariah to their clients that it has for 10 years. At that point, we cannot infuse their motives with any conceptualization of it or else we will miss true motive by all of them.

While there is no doubt the lawyer power network in CO is not only incestuous but traverses up and down the local and national network, it does not seem necessary to call in presidents, congressmen, and other higher ups to make what happened happen, not when the network is well embedded in the community and has been operating successfully for many years prior to JB's death. It makes for sensational news and gossip and speculation, but defies the confines of reality in Boulder in 1996.

The weak link in any Ramsey defense case was Fleet White and they certainly would not order a hit on the man to close that door. Time and events have proven that the power team has continually gone to great lengths to keep Fleet and Priscilla from ever telling what they know and, although we've all been desperate for them to do so, BECAUSE Fleet's testimony is the only thing that will ever convict any Ramsey, he is wise beyond the ages to keep silent. Now I know some will say, "Well, didn't the Whites testify before the Grand Jury?" The answer is, yes and no. The GJ proceedings were under the complete control of Alex Hunter and Foxy Roxy Bailin. Customary grand juries are not trials and therefore there is no one to cross examine a witness or be able to elicit any other testimony than what the prosecutor and judge want disclosed. Remember, the entire point of a grand jury is to hear the PROSECUTION's case and decide if he/she has enough to proceed to a trial. The Whites were questioned by AH or his associates and therefore their testimony was extremely limited and restricted to only that information they had that people already working for the Ramseys wanted the GJ to hear. Which was probably very little. So while the Whites did testify, their testimony was selective, by a Ramsey-friendly prosecutor. And in case HE allowed too much, Bailin was standing by to ensure only limited testimony squeaked out.

The other weak links in Ramsey defense at that time were phone records, Burke's testimony and no credible evidence of an outsider. So they called in Lou Smit to create evidence of an intruder or at least enough circumstantial spin to create reasonable doubt in the minds of any jurors, grand or otherwise. They destroyed the phone records and what little testimony Burke was able to provide i.e., JB being awake when they arrived home, Hi-Tec boots, etc. was very easily overcome and obscured by Smit's intruder crap, which only in Boulder, was allowed to the Grand Jury.

Fleet remains the only piece of evidence in this case to convict a Ramsey and that's the way it will remain until the power players and their chess pieces either die, retire or are otherwise removed from the case. Only when that happens and true objective eyes and hands are controlling it will Fleet have the opp to fully testify and justice be served.

As for the original GJ judge who absconded to Egypt, make no mistake he did so out of fear. That assignment was his reward for leaving the GJ bench, my friends. Compliance reaps prominent assignments, great bucks and infamity. Noncompliance...well, nuff said.

Most recently during the Karr Wreck, we have heard respected members of the BPD say publicly that there is no evidence in this case that has not been disclosed publicly. We also heard the Boulder district attorney and all her lawyer-friends who have long been intruder theorists also state publicly that there is no evidence in this case that has not been disclosed publicly. We knew that. We've known that for many, many years. Yet Spade keeps popping up periodically to remind us that HE has insider evidence that no one else on the planet has. Perhaps that is because the BPD and the BDA and every journalist in the world has not interviewed Spade.

My friend, I would suggest you go talk to the BDA, the BPD and whatever other organization you can find who will listen, and present your insider evidence to them so this case can be solved once and for all. And don't stop till they do cuz justice for JonBenet is very long overdue.
Last edited: Sep 8, 2006
Deja Nu, Sep 7, 2006
#88


tylinBanned

DeJa Nu,
What an informative and truly excellent post. :yay: :bowdown:
Imo, your post should be a sticky---everyone following this case should read it.

I found this portion particularly interesting. I highlighted in bold, 2 important sentences.:
It is SOP to get phone records in homicide cases. Happens every day, multiple times a day, in every state in this country, by simple subpoena. And the phone companies comply with them every day. Why not this case? Wouldn't the Ramseys and their lawyers WANT phone records disclosed if they truly believed someone else killed their daughter and just might have contacted the family prior? And wouldn't it be especially crucial for the Ramseys and their team to encourage receipt of phone records for the 26th and 27th when they were, at that time, insisting that this was a kidnapping and the kidnappers were going to call for the ransom money? Yet those records suddenly vanished as well! It's just like why the Ramseys refused to permit JB's body to be exhumed so that Lou could PROVE his stun gun theory. They knew damn well no stun gun was ever used on their daughter and couldn't take the risk. Also bear in mind that there were at least 2 sets of phone records to be gotten in this case, cell phone records and land line records. ALL were missing! And we've never heard a word about any efforts to obtain phone records for JR's office number at AG. How interesting is THAT?
Click to expand...
tylin, Sep 8, 2006
#89


Deja NuBanned

Thanks, Tylin. It just stands up to logic that if these parents really wanted to prove a stun gun, an intruder, a kidnapping for ransom, ALL the evidence that could prove them right was at their fingertips and their host of lawyers knew it. And they gave it all a big pass. There can only be one answer for why. :loser:

And instead of easily going after the only evidence in existence to prove their statements true, they unleashed ridiculous Lou Smit, Ollie Gray, John St. Augustin, Michael Tracy and Lin Wood to spin one ridiculous, easily disproven intruder theory after another. Well there's ONE judgment call Hal Haddon et al totally
:(
:(
:(
:(
ed up....More :loser:s
Deja Nu, Sep 8, 2006
#90


ShadowFFJ Senior Content Moderator

I heard nothing from my "sources" of Clinton (the Democrat) "sealing" the Ramsey phone records. If he did, however, he is long gone now - I have dificulity understanding how Colorado Democrats have the clout to keep Republicans from releasing the phone records and opening a "juicey" Democrat scandal in Colorado.

Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt Clinton (or any politician) would do this. I just have trouble believing the Republicans wouldn't happily open up this can of worms for Colorado Democrats.

KoldKase - I was the first to post back in 1997(?) that John Ramsey did not follow protocol for a defense contractor employee when he called 911. I have pointed this out many, many times on several forums since then. How do I know this? I worked for defense contractors for over 30 years, and spent much of my later career working in security areas. I was not an executive, but if I got a letter saying my child has been kidnapped (even if they didn't ADMIT they were "a foreign faction"), I would have followed protocol. I would not have called friends to come to my house, I would not have called lawyers, and I would not have called 911. I would have called my company security and they would have taken the proper action. And, if I could not reach security for some reason, I would have called the FBI.

In addition, if anyone in the FBI had believed a "foreign faction" was involved in the kidnapping and death of JonBenet Ramsey, they would have taken the case away from the BPD. PERIOD!!
Shadow, Sep 8, 2006
#91


Deja NuBanned

Totally, totally true, Shadow. AND you would not permit your high-powered lawyers to pull their insider strings to have the FBI stand down while you're all over the TV demanding FBI presence because the local cops are dunces. :unreal:
Deja Nu, Sep 8, 2006
#92


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Shadow said:
I heard nothing from my "sources" of Clinton (the Democrat) "sealing" the Ramsey phone records. If he did, however, he is long gone now - I have dificulity understanding how Colorado Democrats have the clout to keep Republicans from releasing the phone records and opening a "juicey" Democrat scandal in Colorado.

Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt Clinton (or any politician) would do this. I just have trouble believing the Republicans wouldn't happily open up this can of worms for Colorado Democrats.

KoldKase - I was the first to post back in 1997(?) that John Ramsey did not follow protocol for a defense contractor employee when he called 911. I have pointed this out many, many times on several forums since then. How do I know this? I worked for defense contractors for over 30 years, and spent much of my later career working in security areas. I was not an executive, but if I got a letter saying my child has been kidnapped (even if they didn't ADMIT they were "a foreign faction"), I would have followed protocol. I would not have called friends to come to my house, I would not have called lawyers, and I would not have called 911. I would have called my company security and they would have taken the proper action. And, if I could not reach security for some reason, I would have called the FBI.

In addition, if anyone in the FBI had believed a "foreign faction" was involved in the kidnapping and death of JonBenet Ramsey, they would have taken the case away from the BPD. PERIOD!!
Click to expand...
I have always appreciated your professional experience which you have shared with us, Shadow. What you say was the same thing said by the Denver lawyer who spoke about Lockheed Martin in particular, for whom he worked in security.

I will always believe John Ramsey did call someone that morning, possibly Bynum, who was on retainer for AG and therefore connected to LM, too, I believe, before Patsy called 911. From there, I think the fix was in before the 911 call was ever made. JMO
koldkase, Sep 8, 2006
#93


wombatMember

Shadow said:
I heard nothing from my "sources" of Clinton (the Democrat) "sealing" the Ramsey phone records. If he did, however, he is long gone now - I have dificulity understanding how Colorado Democrats have the clout to keep Republicans from releasing the phone records and opening a "juicey" Democrat scandal in Colorado.

Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt Clinton (or any politician) would do this. I just have trouble believing the Republicans wouldn't happily open up this can of worms for Colorado Democrats.

...

In addition, if anyone in the FBI had believed a "foreign faction" was involved in the kidnapping and death of JonBenet Ramsey, they would have taken the case away from the BPD. PERIOD!!
I agree completely. I also don't get why there's no US Dept of Justice investigation. I've been posting about this.

In NJ we currently have a close Senate race between incumbent (appointed) Senator Bob Menendez and State Senator Tom Kean Jr, son of governor/911 commision chair Tom Kean. This is a race the Republicans think they might be able to win. Even though we are the bluest of blue states, Menendez might have a problem with ethics in his past (he comes from the deadly world of Hudson County politics, where Mary Lacy wouldn't even be able to stuff envelopes), and Tom Kean's daddy is beloved (Jr. himself is unknown).

So, lo and behold this morning's headlines: Feds probe Menendez rental deal

Remember, the Feds are GOP, and the Senator is a dem.

So, where are the Feds in Colorado? Don't they have the same ones we do? Isn't there somebody the Republicans need to kill off - what better way than a nice Federal obstruction of justice charge?
wombat, Sep 8, 2006
#94


ShadowFFJ Senior Content Moderator

Right, Wombat. While my "sources" never said so, I always believed the "fix was in" back during the early days of the JBR case. I heard numerous times that some FBI Agents sent to Boulder to offer advice and help wanted the Justice Dept to open an obstruction of justice investigation but it went nowhere. This theory loses some validity given that since 2000 the Republicans have controlled all three branches of government with an iron fist and have shown they know how to use this power.

BTW, I lived in NJ not far from the Mafia strong-hold of Morris Town. The guy I rented my house from was an Italian butcher (grocery store butcher-lol) who owned a nice home across the street from me and three houses he rented out. He also was a slum lord in Newark. Ocassionally, a big black limo would stop in front of his house and an old man and woman would visit. I always figured this was the God Father. I always paid my rent on time! LOL
Shadow, Sep 8, 2006
#95


wombatMember

Shadow said:
BTW, I lived in NJ not far from the Mafia strong-hold of Morris Town. The guy I rented my house from was an Italian butcher (grocery store butcher-lol) who owned a nice home across the street from me and three houses he rented out. He also was a slum lord in Newark. Ocassionally, a big black limo would stop in front of his house and an old man and woman would visit. I always figured this was the God Father. I always paid my rent on time! LOL
I live a couple of miles from Tony Soprano's house. Which is all I ever write about the mafia. Which there is no such thing as. :yow:
wombat, Sep 8, 2006
#96


CarolMember

Aren't lawyers - by law - required to inform LE when their clients have confessed to a crime? JonBenet's death was not prosecutable? Does that mean it was not a crime? Not even involuntary manslaughter? I would think that even an accident which resulted in death would have to be reported to the police as such. Weren't the lawyers that John Ramsey supposedly called that morning expected to inform the police that their clients told them exactly what happened to JonBenet?
Carol, Sep 8, 2006
#97


SpadeMember

Clinton

"This theory loses some validity given that since 2000 the Republicans have controlled all three branches of government with an iron fist and have shown they know how to use this power"

The phone records were sealed by the White House in 1998 during Clinton's 2nd term.
Spade, Sep 8, 2006
#98


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

Carol said:
Aren't lawyers - by law - required to inform LE when their clients have confessed to a crime? JonBenet's death was not prosecutable? Does that mean it was not a crime? Not even involuntary manslaughter? I would think that even an accident which resulted in death would have to be reported to the police as such. Weren't the lawyers that John Ramsey supposedly called that morning expected to inform the police that their clients told them exactly what happened to JonBenet?
I read somewhere that defense lawyers don't ask and really don't want to know if their client is guilty, but if they do find out, they can't make the claim in court that their client is innocent. They can still defend the client vigorously, but they can't make the claim of innocence. I also don't think they have any legal obligation to inform the prosecution of anything their client tells them because of attorney/client privilege.
Watching You, Sep 8, 2006
#99


ShadowFFJ Senior Content Moderator

Spade - The phone records were sealed by the White House in 1998 during Clinton's 2nd term.

The only point I was trying to make, Spade, is that the Republicans have controlled all three branches of government and all government depts and agencies (including the Justice Dept) since 2000. Obviously, they have had the power since 2000 to unseal the phone records to nail Clinton and Democrats in Colorado, and open an obstruction of justice investigation to bring justice to JBR. Could the problem be that Ramsey is a Republican and ran for office? Could it be his run for office in Michigan was more to keep the phone records sealed than being elected? The "conspiracy" deepens!!!
Shadow, Sep 8, 2006
#100

Pages 6 - 7 to follow very shortly...
 
Lawyering JonBenet Page 6


BluesStratBANNED !!!!!

Watching You said:
I read somewhere that defense lawyers don't ask and really don't want to know if their client is guilty, but if they do find out, they can't make the claim in court that their client is innocent. They can still defend the client vigorously, but they can't make the claim of innocence. I also don't think they have any legal obligation to inform the prosecution of anything their client tells them because of attorney/client privilege.
Lawyers are required as officers of the court to inform the authorities if their client is about to commit a crime. The Ramseys were about to, and in the process of, commiting several crimes relating to the coverup, such as falsely reporting a federal crime and interfering with an investigation, etc. If Bynum, knowing this, didn't report it to law enforcement, he would have lost the ability to practice any type of law, should he have been caught. I doubt Bynum would have taken that chance for John Ramsey or anyone else. If John Ramsey even attempted to tell Bynum what was really going on, Bynum would have cut him off and said "STOP - By law, I can't be privy to that information."
BluesStrat, Sep 8, 2006
#101


Deja NuBanned

The only time a lawyer or shrink is legally obligated to notify authorities is when a client informs them he intends to commit a crime of any sort, including suicide. The point being to ensure public safety.

In this country our legal system operates on the presumption of innocence. Guilt MUST BE PROVEN in a court of law. Until it is, we are all presumed innocent. So any confession to a lawyer is NOT a finding by a jury of a client's peers of guilt and therefore, the lawyer cannot prepare any defense of that client based in guilt. A lawyer has a legal obligation to prepare that client's defense to uphold his presumed innocence and place the burden of proving otherwise on the prosecutor.
Deja Nu, Sep 8, 2006
#102


SpadeMember

Deja Nu

"So any confession to a lawyer is NOT a finding by a jury of a client's peers of guilt and therefore, the lawyer cannot prepare any defense of that client based in guilt. A lawyer has a legal obligation to prepare that client's defense to uphold his presumed innocence and place the burden of proving otherwise on the prosecutor."

Thanks for this explanation. I would wager that Haddon, Morgan, etal. knew who killed JonBenet before her body was found.



.
Spade, Sep 8, 2006
#103


Deja NuBanned

Spade said:
"So any confession to a lawyer is NOT a finding by a jury of a client's peers of guilt and therefore, the lawyer cannot prepare any defense of that client based in guilt. A lawyer has a legal obligation to prepare that client's defense to uphold his presumed innocence and place the burden of proving otherwise on the prosecutor."

Thanks for this explanation. I would wager that Haddon, Morgan, etal. knew who killed JonBenet before her body was found.
Spade, one thing on which I'm sure we'll agree is that if JR and PR told Haddon et al the same story we've all heard, they surely knew who killed JB. And yes, I agree that the call was most likely made before the body was "found" the first time......
Deja Nu, Sep 9, 2006
#104


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

BluesStrat said:
Lawyers are required as officers of the court to inform the authorities if their client is about to commit a crime. The Ramseys were about to, and in the process of, commiting several crimes relating to the coverup, such as falsely reporting a federal crime and interfering with an investigation, etc. If Bynum, knowing this, didn't report it to law enforcement, he would have lost the ability to practice any type of law, should he have been caught. I doubt Bynum would have taken that chance for John Ramsey or anyone else. If John Ramsey even attempted to tell Bynum what was really going on, Bynum would have cut him off and said "STOP - By law, I can't be privy to that information."
I think John Ramsey could have gotten information from Bynum without putting him in that position.

He might have asked him about the law regarding accidents. Child molestation. Age related questions. What would happen if he tried to take his family out of state? What would happen if an accident was reported to LE? What would happen if a child was taken to the emergency room and found to have been sexually abused?

I mean, just for instance. Bynum could have figured out a lot from the questions and quided his answers.

I have also wondered if perhaps Dr. Beuf was called in the night, as well.

And let me say, I have NOTHING to suggest this happened except the circumstances we are all aware of and the never subpoenaed phone records, including the blank one that finally showed up a year later "volunteered" by the Ramseys.

But in the absence of fact, one only has speculation. If Hunter had done his job and the Ramseys had helped LE all along, I wouldn't have to speculate.
koldkase, Sep 9, 2006
#105


Deja NuBanned

I sincerely doubt that John and Patsy Ramsey called Mike Bynum at midnight to tell him, "Hey, we're going to be killing our daughter tonight and need to get some legal advice." Come on, that's just too far fetched.

But would they call their lawyer friend early in the morning to say, hey, we accidentally killed our daughter and need some really good legal advice? Yeah, happens all the time. Did Bynum coach them through writing the ransom note, staging the crime scene, wiping the body down? No, again too far fetched. And the Ramseys aren't stupid people. They are both clever, cunning and highly intelligent. And let us not forget that John Douglas' Mind Hunter book was found right on John's bedside table. For anyone not familiar with that book, Douglas is a retired FBI profiler who wrote about his work in some very infamous cases. One particularly had features of the crime that appear to be duplicated in the Ramsey case.

To implicate any of the Ramsey lawyers in the commission of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To implicate them in any cover up or staging of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To suspect they knew what happened before the police were called is logical, reasonable and probable, which is most likely why phone records were not found. Be careful where you tread, FFJ'ers. :nono:
Deja Nu, Sep 9, 2006
#106


sueMember

Deja Nu said:
The only remaining critical piece of evidence that could have ever convicted any Ramsey was Fleet White and his FIRSTHAND EYEWITNESS testimony not to the crimes themselves but every other feature of this case that could have conclusively led to a successful prosecution.
I agree with Deja Nu that it's very unlikely that the Ramseys would have called in the middle of the night for legal advice before setting up the staging, but I do think, they probably called in the morning. Maybe they didn't even tell him everything - maybe they just said something about JB being missing and added some little tidbits about wondering if it might be a pedophile somehow related to her pageants (more staging) and that they were worried that someone might somehow try to blame one of them if JB turned up dead?
I wonder if Bynum had advised John to have a witness for all the things you mentioned (and then nearly had a heart attack when he found out who the witness was.)
AH did not decline the request but just didn't act on it. As KK posted earlier, it took a year for BPD to get legal access to them only to discover that the crucial records for the month preceding and during JB's death were missing, not sealed under any order.
Giving them a lot of time to get those particular ducks in a row.
Wouldn't the Ramseys and their lawyers WANT phone records disclosed if they truly believed someone else killed their daughter and just might have contacted the family prior? And wouldn't it be especially crucial for the Ramseys and their team to encourage receipt of phone records for the 26th and 27th when they were, at that time, insisting that this was a kidnapping and the kidnappers were going to call for the ransom money?
And, wouldn't the parents be screaming to anyone who would listen to try to find those phone records that could potentially be instrumental in catching the 'perpetrator'? So why didn't they?

Guess it doesn't work that way if you already know who the perpetrator is.
sue, Sep 9, 2006
#107


BarbaraFFJ Senior Member

Not only that, but wouldn't you want to have the phone records checked, JUST IN CASE, this "killer" had called that number at any time, even as a "wrong number", just to make sure John answers, or to verify that it was John's phone. I get wrong numbers on my phone, don't you, wouldn't they?

For that alone, I'd be screaming to check the records to assure that any number that may have called it was thoroughly checked.
Barbara, Sep 9, 2006
#108


JCSuperior Cool Member

Deja Nu said:
To implicate any of the Ramsey lawyers in the commission of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To implicate them in any cover up or staging of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To suspect they knew what happened before the police were called is logical, reasonable and probable, which is most likely why phone records were not found. Be careful where you tread, FFJ'ers. :nono:
I do suspect they knew what happened before the police were called. And if they did, something seems wrong with that to me. I don't see how they could be implicated in the commission of the homicide or any staging, but cover-up ... if they did know before the police did, it looks like cover-up to me. It's not?
JC, Sep 9, 2006
#109


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

Deja Nu said:
I sincerely doubt that John and Patsy Ramsey called Mike Bynum at midnight to tell him, "Hey, we're going to be killing our daughter tonight and need to get some legal advice." Come on, that's just too far fetched.
Deja, I don't think anyone was saying that John and Patsy called Bynum (or any other lawyer) BEFORE JonBenet was killed. I didn't get that implication from what was posted. I think when they said the lawyers might have been called during the "night," they were including the early morning hours (when it was still dark) after JonBenet had been fatally injured.


But would they call their lawyer friend early in the morning to say, hey, we accidentally killed our daughter and need some really good legal advice? Yeah, happens all the time. Did Bynum coach them through writing the ransom note, staging the crime scene, wiping the body down? No, again too far fetched.
Once again, no one suggested Bynum (or anyone else) coached them through staging the crime scene. I think the suggestion was that they may have called Bynum to get an idea of the legal consequences BEFORE the crime scene was staged, but they didn't go into details with Bynum, just generalities, and certainly never touched on the actual subject of JonBenet's death or crime scene staging.


To implicate any of the Ramsey lawyers in the commission of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To implicate them in any cover up or staging of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To suspect they knew what happened before the police were called is logical, reasonable and probable, which is most likely why phone records were not found. Be careful where you tread, FFJ'ers.
I don't think anyone was implicating the lawyers in the commission of a homicide or in the staging of the crime scene. From what I saw in the posts, everyone was pretty much saying what you said ... that it is logical, reasonable and probable that the Ramseys called their lawyers SOMETIME before the police were called.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I didn't see any FFJers cross a line or tread where they shouldn't. I understand your natural inclination to defend your comrades in law, but I don't know why it's wrong, wrong, wrong to suspect ANYTHING considering what we know of the corruption in this case.

JMO. Please don't hurt me.
:p
cguru:
Cherokee, Sep 9, 2006
#110


TexanFFJ Senior Member

another one bites the dust

If Mike Bynum was called prior to the 911 call, then the theory that JR wasn't in on the staging bites the dust. Unless the call was just to say they found a ransom note and ask if they should call the cops. If that is the case then Mike Bynum let them down because he should have advised them to call AG security first and if not that, to at least make sure to advise the cops that they had been threatened that the house was being watched and care would need to be taken that not alot of cars park right in front of the house.
Texan, Sep 10, 2006
#111


SpadeMember

Fear

“To implicate any of the Ramsey lawyers in the commission of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To implicate them in any cover up or staging of this homicide is wrong, wrong, wrong. To suspect they knew what happened before the police were called is logical, reasonable and probable, which is most likely why phone records were not found. Be careful where you tread, FFJ'ers.†Deja Nu

“Their stock-in-trade, I've found, always is fear. They try to appear as these wide-eyed, scanning, tenacious, fact-sniffing bulldogs incapable of being tossed off the scent of guilt that leads directly to a perpetrator's incarceration or back pocket, depending on the crime.†Bill Johnson Rocky Mountain News August 30,2006 (writing about Lacy)

“Fear is the mind killerâ€. Frank Herbert Dune
Spade, Sep 10, 2006
#112


RiverRatFFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

A reminder........No Fear = No Beer! :toast:
RiverRat, Sep 10, 2006
#113


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

Cherokee said:
Deja, I don't think anyone was saying that John and Patsy called Bynum (or any other lawyer) BEFORE JonBenet was killed. I didn't get that implication from what was posted. I think when they said the lawyers might have been called during the "night," they were including the early morning hours (when it was still dark) after JonBenet had been fatally injured.
For the record, a new poster started a thread trying to incriminate Bynum as being involved in JB's murder. I immediately challenged this poster with a warning, saying unsubstantiated accusations against peripheral players in this crime, who have not been named as a suspect or even hinted at as being under the umbrella, will not be tolerated at FFJ. The poster then threw a slam at me for stating FFJ's position on accusing people of committing crimes with no evidence to back it up. The first post got the poster warned. The second post got her banned. As far as I can see, no one on this thread has accused any of the Ramsey lawyers or any other lawyers of being involved in any crime.
Watching You, Sep 10, 2006
#114


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

Watching You said:
As far as I can see, no one on this thread has accused any of the Ramsey lawyers or any other lawyers of being involved in any crime.
And that's exactly what I was saying ... except you said it so much better.
:)
Cherokee, Sep 10, 2006
#115


TriciaAdministratorStaff Member

Watching You said:
For the record, a new poster started a thread trying to incriminate Bynum as being involved in JB's murder. I immediately challenged this poster with a warning, saying unsubstantiated accusations against peripheral players in this crime, who have not been named as a suspect or even hinted at as being under the umbrella, will not be tolerated at FFJ. The poster then threw a slam at me for stating FFJ's position on accusing people of committing crimes with no evidence to back it up. The first post got the poster warned. The second post got her banned. As far as I can see, no one on this thread has accused any of the Ramsey lawyers or any other lawyers of being involved in any crime.
Who got banned? Why do I always miss out on the good stuff?
Tricia, Sep 10, 2006
#116


Deja NuBanned

"I understand your natural inclination to defend your comrades in law,"

My post was not to defend any lawyer and certainly not the likes of Hal Haddon. My post was to protect FFJ and Tricia from suits on the basis of claiming Burke Ramsey killed his sister or that the Ramsey lawyers knew she had been killed by someone in the family and helped to cover it up. I'm glad to hear, WY, that someone who did was banned. Let us remember as we discuss various topics that we are not the only ones reading here. There is a VAST difference, Spade, between wisdom and fear, i.e., fools rush in.....
Deja Nu, Sep 10, 2006
#117


SpadeMember

Deja Nu

"My post was not to defend any lawyer and certainly not the likes of Hal Haddon. My post was to protect FFJ and Tricia from suits on the basis of claiming Burke Ramsey killed his sister or that the Ramsey lawyers knew she had been killed by someone in the family and helped to cover it up."

Perhaps you can point out ANY post that you feel places FFJ and /or Tricia in jeoprady of litigation. Hope you also can explain why having an opinion that the Ramsey lawyers knew who killed JonBenet is grounds for a lawsuit.
Spade, Sep 10, 2006
#118


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

Tricia said:
Who got banned? Why do I always miss out on the good stuff?
Hmmmm, I don't remember the hat, but WY and I were "on duty" when they came aboard. We both had our fingers on the "ban button" after that first post about Mike Bynum. WY gave them a warning, and they got snitty with a whole bunch of insulting stuff, and WY kicked them out toot sweet. I think it was when the board was going crazy right after Lacy set Karr free. Suddenly, all the people with personal perps came out of the woodwork saying, well if it's not Karr, then it has to be _________ .

I'm afraid you missed A LOT of good stuff during the two weeks of the Karr fiasco! There were bodies and hats flying everywhere.
:D
I was getting about four hours of sleep a night, and that's probably more than WY and Moab got. It was quite a ride, but worth it all to see the truth finally coming out after all these years.
Cherokee, Sep 10, 2006
#119


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

I honestly don't remember what the poster's hat was, but the fugly attitude was very clear. Oh, it just came to me - was it Truthseeker? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Watching You, Sep 10, 2006
#120

Page 7 (last page of thread) coming up very shortly...
 
Lawyering JonBenet Page 7 (final)


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

Watching You said:
I honestly don't remember what the poster's hat was, but the fugly attitude was very clear. Oh, it just came to me - was it Truthseeker? Or am I thinking of someone else?
You're thinking of someone else. Truthseeker got banned for getting nasty, but originally they came in (guns blazing on their first post that got deleted) insisting John Mark Karr was the perp, not Mike Bynum.

Here's the thread.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7448&highlight=truthseeker

Edited to add: I just found it. The Mike Bynum accuser was a hat called "achris."
Cherokee, Sep 10, 2006
#121


Watching YouSuperior Bee Admin

Cherokee said:
You're thinking of someone else. Truthseeker got banned for getting nasty, but originally they came in (guns blazing on their first post that got deleted) insisting John Mark Karr was the perp, not Mike Bynum.

Here's the thread.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7448&highlight=truthseeker

Edited to add: I just found it. The Mike Bynum accuser was a hat called "achris."
Click to expand...
Ahhh, that's right. How could I forget that hat. aChris.

Guess it just wasn't all that memorable.
Watching You, Sep 10, 2006
#122


SpadeMember

Fleet White on Bill Clinton's lawyer

*AFFIDAVIT OF FLEET RUSSELL WHITE, JR.

The undersigned hereby swears and affirms as follows:

1. My name is Fleet Russell White, Jr.

2. I reside at (address redacted)

3. On September 19, 2000, I met with Jefferson County Deputy District Attorney Dennis Hall. At that meeting, Mr. Hall stated that David Kendall, a lawyer with the Washington, D.C. office of the Williams & Connolly law firm had visited Mr. Hall and Jefferson District Attorney David Thomas earlier that year and had attempted to persuade Mr. Hall and Mr. Thomas to dismiss the indictment of Mr. Craig A. Lewis, an employee of the Globe, a supermarket tabloid. Also at the meeting, Mr. Hall indicated that the ultimate objective of the Lewis prosecution was to bring criminal charges against Globe executives who shared responsibility for the illegal actions of Mr. Lewis.

4. On September 29, 2000, I met with Mr. Bob Brown, an investigator for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Also present at the meeting was my wife, Priscilla Brown White. At that meeting, Mr. Brown stated that Mr. Kendall had visited the Jefferson County District Attorney in June 2000 for the purpose of persuading the District Attorney to dismiss the indictment of Mr. Lewis.

5. On September 17, 2001 I attended a meeting at the Jefferson County District Attorney’s office. The people present at the meeting were my wife, Priscilla Brown White, Denver lawyer Craig R. Truman, Jefferson County District Attorney David Thomas; and Jefferson County Deputy District Attorney Charles Tingle. The meeting was held in a conference room at the Jefferson County District Attorney’s office. At that meeting, the 1999 indictments of Thomas C. Miller and Craig A. Lewis by the Jefferson County grand jury were discussed by those present. During the course of that discussion, I recall asking Mr. Thomas why, in November 2000, his office chose to dismiss charges against Mr. Lewis in consideration of a $100,000 payment by Globe International to the University of Colorado School of Journalism and Mass Communication. I recall Mr. Thomas stating that the decision to dismiss the charges against Mr. Lewis was made in order to avoid a lengthy and expensive prosecution. I also recall him describing a meeting with lawyers representing Mr. Lewis and including “Bill Clinton’s attorney†who I assumed to be Mr. Kendall.

I clearly recall Mr. Thomas stating that one of the lawyers present at that meeting attempted to persuade him to dismiss the indictment of Mr. Lewis by threatening Mr. Thomas with reprisals having to do with Mr. Thomas’ career and work that Mr. Thomas might seek in the future.
Date: October 22, 2002

Fleet Russell White, Jr.


David Kendall and the Williams and Connelly law firm represented President Bill Clinton in the Senate impeachment hearings.

Craig Truman represents the mom in the dead Midyette baby case. The one where the parents haven't talked to the police in six months and Mary Keenan/Lacy doesn't have the ovaries to do anything about it.
Spade, Sep 10, 2006
#123


SpadeMember

Kudos to Candy

"Mary Lacy quit trying cases as DA when she lost a first degree murder conviction against Joseph Dowler. The evidence never supported a first degree murder conviction either. The whole CU witchhunt ended the lawsuit Lacy told Lisa Simpson to file against CU in civil court being booted out of Federal Court, with a stiff reprimand from the Judge.

She didn't know evidence that crackpot Karr was claiming was widely available on the internet, straight out of the autopsy report. That's basic competency. His e-mails and who he was e-mailing with tipped off everyone that knew this case that this was another example of Team Ramsey exploiting a nut for their own purposes."

Candy posted this at the swamp. Good for her!!!!! She is right on!
Spade, Sep 10, 2006
#124


tylinBanned

Spade said:
Craig Truman represents the mom in the dead Midyette baby case. The one where the parents haven't talked to the police in six months and Mary Keenan/Lacy doesn't have the ovaries to do anything about it.
OMG!!! Unbelievable! Could the lawyers in Boulder and across the country be anymore connected? :nervous:
tylin, Sep 11, 2006
#125


SpadeMember

Lawyering JonBenet 2

Lawyering JonBenet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the unusual features of this case and IMO the key to understanding what happened that night, is to analyze how the case has been lawyered. Starting the night of December 26, 1996 at 5PM, with Mike Bynum summoning Fleet to his office and ending last week with Mary Lacy’s pathetic news conference; the behavior of lawyers has been consistently bizarre. As you read this list, please keep in mind that once a prosecutor starts to lie, there is no turning back.

1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when “the intimidation beganâ€.)

2. Hofstrom and DeMuth spent the early days of the case taking phone calls in Bynum’s office (per ST’s book).

3. Haddon had his PI’s on the street early AM 12/27/96, often beating the BPD to witnesses.

4. Haddon used his personal political chits to delay Gov. Romer’s decision on the GJ/remove Hunter.

5. Jenkins (Burke’s lawyer) went to court to demand a copy of the 911 call. This was a condition of Burke’s GJ appearance. Jenkins received his copy.

6. Hunter found Krebs credible and goes public with his support.

7. Hunter writes Wood a carefully parsed excuse for Burke for Wood’s use in a shakedown of American Media.

8. Hunter asks Tracey to “look into Fleet White’s California connectionsâ€.

9. Hunter shares half-truths with Jeff Shapiro.

10. Bellipanni abruptly resigns as presiding GJ judge and is replaced by Roxanne Bailin. This despite Foxy Roxy's long-term personal friendship and book co-authorship with Patrick Burke, Patsy’s attorney.

11. Mary Keenan/Lacytries to throw: Santa Claus, Churchmouse, Helgoth, Gigax, and Karr under the bus.

I would like to discuss #4 in more detail.

4. Haddon used his personal political chits to delay Gov. Romer’s decision on the GJ/remove Hunter.

In many ways, it has been the actions of adults that point to a non-prosecutable juvenile perp. This is a prime example. In early 1998, when the public and the BPD was demanding a special prosecuter and a grand jury, Hal Haddon visited his old friend Roy Romer, governor of the State of Colorado. Haddon asked Romer to leave Alex Hunter in charge of the case and not to force a Grand Jury on him. Roemer complied with Haddon's wishes.

John Ramsey was Haddon's client. Now let's assume for a minute that John was the perpetrator of the prior sexual abuse and killed his daughter. Let's also assume that ultimately John was found guilty. Where would Hal Haddon stand with the Guv? Wouldn't Romer tell Haddon something like this:

"You ***! You ****ing talked me into helping a baby raping murderer. Don't you ever talk to me again!"

Hal Haddon is very smart. If he had ANY indication that either of the parents molested/killed JonBenet he would not defend them by calling in personal favors.
Last edited: Sep 15, 2006
Spade, Sep 12, 2006
#126


SpadeMember

Silverman on #4

From Rivera Live August 1998

Meanwhile, former close friends of John Ramsey have written an extraordinary 15-page letter asking that the people of Colorado should demand that the state's attorney general take over the case. NBC's Leanne Gregg reports on this plea for the removal of the Bouldy--Boulder County district attorney.
LEANNE GREGG reporting:
Fleet White, a former friend of John Ramsey's and one of the pallbearers at JonBenet's funeral, in a scathing letter, accuses Boulder's district attorney, Alex Hunter, of having no intention of ever seeking an indictment. White was with John Ramsey when he found JonBenet's body in the basement of their home 20 months ago. White addressed the letter, acquired by The Denver Post, to the people of Colorado, asking them to demand that the state's governor immediately order the attorney general to take over the investigation.

Governor ROY ROMER (Democrat, Colorado): Let--let me make one last comment before you turn...

GREGG: Earlier this month, Governor Roy Romer, on the advice of four Denver area district attorneys, decided against replacing Hunter with a special prosecutor.

Gov. ROMER: I have concluded that it is not proper to appoint a special prosecutor because it would impair this investigation.
GREGG: Instead, Romer said the case is on track for a grand jury. In his letter, White accused Hunter of using the grand jury and its secrecy in an attempt to protect his career.

Unidentified Woman: (From video) Number 16, JonBenet.

GREGG: Frustrations over the lack of resolution of the case prompted White last December to ask the governor to appoint a special prosecutor. The governor declined. This latest plea is not likely to change his mind.
Within the next few weeks, Hunter is expected to appoint additional experts to help with the case. He won't say when or where the grand jury will begin its part of the investigation. Leanne Gregg, NBC News, Denver.

CLARK: Civil and criminal attorney--trial lawyer Craig Silverman now joins us in Denver. Craig served formerly as a chief deputy district attorney there.
Craig, I--I'm--I'm dying to know what you think is--of--of the current request that's on the table now, for the second time, that Alex Hunter be removed in favor of the attorney general. What do y--do you think it's likely to succeed? Do you think it should?

Mr. CRAIG SILVERMAN (Civil and Criminal Attorney, Former Prosecutor): N--no, it's not going to succeed. In fact, Governor Romer has already turned down Fleet White. But let's remember who Fleet White is. He's a star witness in this case, as is his wife, who also authored that letter. They have turned against this prosecutor. This follows Steve Thomas, lead investigator, putting down Alex Hunter. They're both requesting a special prosecutor and it--it casts a shadow over the case.

CLARK: Well, yeah, I mean, I understand that it does, except that--don't you think that there may be some merit to it? There's been no movement, and even since--it's been a while even since there was an announcement that there would be a grand jury investigation. That hasn't even begun.
Mr. SILVERMAN: Right. It's an interesting situation. And he points at--toward Governor Romer; he says, 'There's sort of a vast left-wing conspiracy here.' I think he overcharges, but he makes good, valid points: Alex Hunter, the Democrat DA in Boulder, being helped by an--a bunch of other established Democrats, and we've seen how people band together on partisan lines. Hopefully, that would not occur in a murder case, but it may be a matter of philosophy as much as politics.
CLARK: You know, but, Craig, I understand that Alex Hunter also hasn't had a whole lot of experience with high-profile cases, let alone with homicides. I understand--I--I've heard that he hasn't even had--tried one in his career. Maybe it is a good thing to get someone else in to run--guide the ship.
Mr. SILVERMAN: Well, what they're talking about now is bringing in a special deputy, somebody who will actually take charge of the case. Hopefully, it'll be somebody who's insulated from these political accusations...

CLARK: Mm-hmm.

Mr. SILVERMAN: ...'cause when you look at Fleet White, you have to ask yourself: What is this man's motivation? And you can't come up with anything other than justice for JonBenet.

CLARK: Yeah, that's really true. That's--his netter--letter was very impressive to me, as was the detective's letter, the one who just retired. And I think that after Fleet White's letter--even though that's been turned down again by Governor Romer, there's probably going to be another and yet another.

Mr. SILVERMAN: Right.

CLARK: So hopefully, that will be resolved. We're gonna go to break here, Craig.
Spade, Sep 15, 2006
#127


CherokeeFFJ Senior Member

NOTE TO THE RAMSEYS: The following is how truly INNOCENT parents act ... they either take, or ask to take, polygraphs as soon as possible!


CNN.com - Missing 'Baby Abby' found alive - Sep 19, 2006

Missing 'Baby Abby' found alive

POSTED: 8:14 p.m. EDT, September 19, 2006

UNION, Missouri (CNN) -- An 11-day-old baby missing since a knife attack on her mother Friday was found alive Tuesday, said Gina Petzold, a spokeswoman for the girl's family.

Investigators had been searching for Abigale "Abby" Lynn Woods since her mother, 21-year-old Stephanie Ochsenbine, turned up at a neighbor's home with a cut throat and several stab wounds, claiming someone had stolen the baby.

Earlier Tuesday, Franklin County Sheriff Gary Toelke told reporters the child's father, James Woods, had taken a polygraph examination and passed.

Ochsenbine, he said, had also offered to take a polygraph once her wounds healed enough for the polygraph equipment to be used.
When she was taken to the hospital after the incident, a doctor told authorities her wounds were consistent with her account of what happened, Toelke said.

[snip]
Cherokee, Sep 19, 2006
#128


BarbaraFFJ Senior Member

Thanks Cherokee,

You are quite right! Innocent parents put the interest of the child ahead of themselves. I never had a problem with retaining an attorney, becase sometimes, things CAN go terribly wrong for innocent people who make innocent mistakes in their accounts or statements, but once you have an attorney, THEN COOPERATE WITH EVERYTHING ASKED! If you are innocent, you hire an attorney to GUIDE you, NOT prevent your cooperation........that's if you are innocent.

Contrary to the swamp's endless criticism of my posts over the years regarding my opinion (and others), taken out of context of course, I repeat:

I agree that innocent people can and in some cases, should, get an attorney, but for different reasons than the Ramseys hired them. If I am innocent, I want a lawyer to assure I am not "tricked", not to hinder my cooperation in getting the job done. :tsktsk:
Barbara, Sep 19, 2006
#129


koldkaseFFJ Senior Member

Bump: it's a good debate and Spade and DejaNu both are on this thread sharing their rather interesting ideas and sources, more or less.
koldkase, Dec 30, 2012
#130


End of Lawyering JonBenet thread from FFJ
 
Meara, thank you so much for taking the time to post all of this. It should be required reading for anyone really interested in this case. It is eye opening and contains a lot of details. I stayed up until the wee hours of the morning reading, I didn't want to stop but finally had to put it down and get some sleep. It's riveting. I'm looking forward to setting aside the time to finish the read.
 
Yay! Thank you. That's very gratifying to hear. I had a similar experience first time through - couldn't stop, up till all hours! It was like discovering secret rooms and passageways behind the pantry cupboard. I could never see the case the same way again. Copying the thread had its challenges :eek: but, like you, I want as many people as possible to have the information. It IS a lot to take in, isn't it? I am rereading it myself. Ta -
 
I had the same reaction the first time I encountered it - so many dots connecting and light bulbs lighting up at once, I couldn't take it all in. But once I did, the whole case made a lot more sense. I'm excited that you're reading it!
 
I had the same reaction the first time I encountered it - so many dots connecting and light bulbs lighting up at once, I couldn't take it all in. But once I did, the whole case made a lot more sense. I'm excited that you're reading it!
I know I am going to have to reread a few times to fully grasp everything. It is very intriguing.
 
So for me to really follow I had to cut through the chatter and just read Spades posts. So to paraphrase what I am reading, the cover up was for BR. The job was to keep incompetence in charge of the case, create delays, and call in favors for this to never see the light of day. Is this a correct interpretation?
 

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