Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[gribb0]

DBM

 

[gribb0]

I'm probably missing something obvious but I can't find a reference to the anti clockwise blue route in the dossier. The only reference I have seen to that is the newspaper article about the guy who gave her a lift on 21st. The dossier only seems to mention the clockwise route and that she would explore the head of the valley on 21st which fits with her staying in the caban at besurta.
I think it's possible she went back there again if the route to the refuge on the french side looked more treacherous in the poor light conditions.

Ignore my garbled message - it's too early in the day!

Otto you are quite right there is no mention of clockwise in the dossier! I'm going back to sleep

 

[otto]

Ignore my garbled message - it's too early in the day!

Otto you are quite right there is no mention of clockwise in the dossier! I'm going back to sleep

I know - it's confusing when "clockwise route" is posted as fact but the dossier contradicts.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

We’ve always thought she intended to do the loop anti clockwise.

On 21st she was dropped off near La Besurta

I don’t think she was ever at Hospice de Benasque (or at least not on the weekend in question)

The loop she was doing was therefore an inverted U.

 

[jsoap]

Regarding the Daily Mail map, that is the circular route from Hospice de France, to Port de Venasque and back via Pas de l'escalette and the border route. So nothing more than a guess on their part.
During the previous trip Esther had indicated that snow had made her change plans, and that she was now wandering. So I think that plans were very fluid.
However it was late in the day, and 2 hours to the Spanish huts, so I doubt that she would have changed her mind on the way to the Refuge de Venasque.
Personally I would be hesitant to return to Benasque via Porte de la Glere, because conditions could deteriorate making the col impassable and the route back via Porte de Venasque could also be impassable. This would mean a long round trip via roads in France, to get back to the van. The weather was getting much colder also, so this could lead to a change of plan on the morning of 23rd, back to the Spanish side, where there was no phone signal.
It's a pity that the small window of opportunity to search the area has gone - incidentally the Spanish SAR covered a huge area 10km south and west of Pic, using six teams.
Sadly I would not expect the snow to clear enough at this altitude until the end of June at the earliest. Hopefully we will be able provide some assistance then.

 

[jsoap]

Try this: Her phone was on airplane mode because she was out of minutes; she didn't want to pay for incoming minutes.
If you have a "pay as you go phone", if someone calls you or leaves a message, it costs you minutes. You have to pay for them. Maybe she only had so many minutes left in her "pay as you go" phone card and wasn't going to buy any more.
So maybe there wasn't a reception problem or a re-charging problem, though these might have been issues. She was simply low on minutes and couldn't afford an incoming call. Thus "airplane mode".

PAYG EU roaming charges were abolished a few years ago

 

[stmarysmead]

Is it correct that you cannot get texts or em

Good questions, @otto.

So the most fundamental question underlying all this could be why did ED deviate so markedly from her planned route that she had just sent DC that morning before she left her van on 21/11 - the start of her multi-day journey before returning to DC?

Her intended route, per DC's dossier, is the blue hash line on the map. The route was to go from the Hotel Hospital de Banasque where Ballarin dropped her off towards Port de Glere and loop clockwise to the Refuge de Vanesque.

Instead she immediately deviated from that plan without notifying DC and headed to Pic de Sauvegarde, which she summited and took lots of pics that she posted. One might think, 'OK, then ED was planning to do the planned route counter-clockwise'. But no, the night of the first day ED descends the col to Cabane La Besurta.

I drew in black her actual route (based on Ballarin's story about dropping her off at her starting point, her pics from the summit, telling DC she stayed at Cabane La Besurta). And boy, that seems really odd - and opens up the opportunity for ED to vary her route further since she was never actually on her intended route day one.

View attachment 282112

https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

Edited by me to correct hotel name

Thanks for a great post. Really got me thinking...

I wonder if Dan was trying to micromanage her trip with all his calls and texts. As the “planner”, he may have felt he was just fulfilling his usual role, only from afar. And Esther, though gracious about it, is a bit rebellious and just does the opposite. I have been known to do this in annoyance at my own husband (sometimes to my regret)

I’m not considering this to indicate some seriously detrimental part of their relationship. But I do know it’s a reaction I sometimes have had.

We know Dan doesn’t hear from her in 0ver 24 hours, and when she checks, she comments on all the messages he has sent that are unread. I know she says “Thank you” and “can’t wait to read them”...but if she’s trying to assert her own independence, rely on herself a bit,maybe she’s thinking...”NO, Dan, this is my trip, I’ll do it my way.” Maybe he’s telling her the best way to go, and she agrees and then does what she wants.

This would fit with Dan thinking he knew every detail but there’s no sign of her in those places.

And yes, airplane mode would stop texts and messages. As would telling him there was no cell service, even if at times there was. If the witness who said they were “on a break”is correct...that would make all these messages even more overwhelming. If she left to have space to think if she wanted to leave him, even loving messages could seem manipulative.

 

[Grouse]

I hadn't considered the possibility that she changed her mind and returned to the Cabana de la Besurta. It's true that anything could have happened there.

Other than other missing hikers, are there any other missing/disappeared/murdered women in a 100 mile radius area ?

View attachment 282111

View attachment 282110

The second picture in your post from C de la B is the view I initially saw on the Google 360 pic and of course it's hard to see the road due to the snow. But just a short distance to the west near the Shelter Plan d'Estan it can be clearly seen Google Maps

The weather was good on 22nd so I'd guess the road wasn't snowed up

 

[RedHaus]

We’ve always thought she intended to do the loop anti clockwise.

On 21st she was dropped off near La Besurta

I don’t think she was ever at Hospice de Benasque (or at least not on the weekend in question)

The loop she was doing was therefore an inverted U.

BBM

Hi CoverMeCagney. You know, I thought the same until late last night. Per Ballarin, at about 10:30 am 21/11 he dropped ED at the Plan de l'Estany trail to pic de Sauvegarde (see article link, below). The Plan de l'Estany trail starts at the Llanos del Hospital (ski area), which is located at the at the Hotel Hospital de Banasque.

So I no longer think ED started her trek on 21/11 near La Besurta. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Ballarin Story: Missing Esther Dingley's secrets, by the last man to see her alive

 

[Grouse]

BBM

Hi CoverMeCagney. You know, I thought the same until late last night. Per Ballarin, at about 10:30 am 21/11 he dropped ED at the Plan de l'Estany trail to pic de Sauvegarde (see article link, below). The Plan de l'Estany trail starts at the Llanos del Hospital (ski area), which is located at the at the Hotel Hospital de Banasque.

So I no longer think ED started her trek on 21/11 near La Besurta. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Ballarin Story: Missing Esther Dingley's secrets, by the last man to see her alive

Interesting, I just posted a link to the view from that shelter. I hadn't remembered that was where she'd been dropped off.

ETA: actually La Besurta and l'Estany are pretty close to each other - about 800m looking at the map

 

[CoverMeCagney]

BBM

Hi CoverMeCagney. You know, I thought the same until late last night. Per Ballarin, at about 10:30 am 21/11 he dropped ED at the Plan de l'Estany trail to pic de Sauvegarde (see article link, below). The Plan de l'Estany trail starts at the Llanos del Hospital (ski area), which is located at the at the Hotel Hospital de Banasque.

So I no longer think ED started her trek on 21/11 near La Besurta. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Ballarin Story: Missing Esther Dingley's secrets, by the last man to see her alive

Ah maybe. I was basing it on my the map showing the three places. Plan d’Estan is much nearer to La Besurta. May not be an accurate pin, of course.

 

[Grouse]

We’ve always thought she intended to do the loop anti clockwise.

On 21st she was dropped off near La Besurta

I don’t think she was ever at Hospice de Benasque (or at least not on the weekend in question)

The loop she was doing was therefore an inverted U.

I guess it might still be described as a loop by DC if he was including the lift from AB, though he doesn't show that bit in his diagram in the dossier.

 

[RickshawFan]

Well @RickshawFan, it wasn't until about 60 minutes ago I realized the significance of where ED started on 21/11, per my post just above.

Per Ballarin, he dropped ED at the Plan de l'Estany trail to pic de Sauvegarde (see article link, below). The Plan de l'Estany trail starts at the Llanos del Hospital (ski area), which is located at the at the Hotel Hospital de Banasque. It is one of two trail heads to the pic de Sauvegarde. The other is at the Cabane de la Buserta.

When I understood ED's starting point, it sunk in that she deviated from her planned route from the very start, 21/11 at ~10:30am, per this map she sent DC at 10:08am.

View attachment 282114

Ballarin Story: Missing Esther Dingley's secrets, by the last man to see her alive
Source of map: https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

Great point.
This solidifies my idea that the de la Glère route was a muddled, unformulated, thought on the fly after something else didn't work out.
IMO if that was the original plan, she would have set out on the loop (via the Refuge) on the 21 st. IMO that plan was an afterthought.
And I don't believe she did that one, either.
I think she aborted that idea (which she couldn't quite get together anyway) and went back down to the Cabane after summiting the Pic on 11/22.
With this timetable and re-routing, she could just as well have had an accident on the 23rd as on the 22nd, between the Pic and the Cabane or after she set out the next day.

 

[RedHaus]

I know - it's confusing when "clockwise route" is posted as fact but the dossier contradicts.

My understanding is that she hiked from Hospice de Benasque to the Pic de Sauvegarde, over night Nov 21 at Cabana de la Besurta, late start on Nov 22, hike from Cabana Besurta to Pic de Sauvegarde, again, on the way to the next refuge.

How did she deviate from her plan? Her partner was aware that she stayed at the Cabana on Nov 21 and was headed to the refuge.

I suppose the big question is whether he knew that she was going to stay overnight at the Cabana Besurta on Nov 21 or whether that was a surprise when she checked in at 3:30 PM the day she vanished.

Hi Otto.

I don't disagree with your summary of what ED did on 21/11 when Ballarin dropped her off at ~10:30am until ~4:00pm 22/11. Those are the facts I stated last night in a post.

But.... what ED did during that period, IMO, did not match the loop map she sent DC at 10:08am 21/11. That map from the Dossier implies to me, a start at the Hospital de Banasque, a hike thu Port de Glere, and ending at Refuge de Vanesque. To me that appears to be a clockwise direction...

But clockwise v. counter clockwise really may not matter because ED may never have gone through either ports (glere or vanesque) into France, IMO.

What I was trying to convey last night is my observation that the map ED sent to DC 21/11 just before she set off that morning is not what she did on 21/11.

And I illustrated on the map from the dossier how ED's trek deviated right at the start. That is what I found odd.



ETA map

 

[RickshawFan]

<respectfully snipped> and BBM

Clockwise from the Hospice de Benasque to the Port de la Glere is not an option after first hiking to the Pic de Sauvegarde. She hiked to the Pic de Sauvegarde on Nov 21 to start her hike and was headed to the Refuge de Venasque on Nov 22 according to all official information. It was a counter-clockwise trip plan recommended by a stranger on Nov 19.

There is no hiking trail from Hospice de Benasque to Pic de Sauvegarde to Port de la Glere without pretty much hiking back to the Hospice de Benasque. First two maps are from the Dossier.

She hiked from summit, last contact, to trip planned Refuge de Venasque. It is a counter clockwise route to Port de la Glere.

From the Dossier:

View attachment 282126

View attachment 282130

Enlarged image of trip plan terrain:

View attachment 282128

The daily mail indicates clockwise direction, offering few details on actual route:

View attachment 282129

It looks as though you're mixing up the Hospital and the Hospice and arguing from there. They are not the same.

 

[RickshawFan]

Hi Otto.

I don't disagree with your summary of what ED did on 21/11 when Ballarin dropped her off at ~10:30am until ~4:00pm 22/11. Those are the facts I stated last night in a post.

But.... what ED did during that period, IMO, did not match the loop map she sent DC at 10:08am 21/11. That map from the Dossier implies to me, a start at the Hospital de Banasque, a hike thu Port de Glere, and ending at Refuge de Vanesque. To me that appears to be a clockwise direction...

But clockwise v. counter clockwise really may not matter because ED may never have gone through either ports (glere or vanesque) into France, IMO.

What I was trying to convey last night is my observation that the map ED sent to DC 21/11 just before she set off that morning is not what she did on 21/11.

And I illustrated on the map from the dossier how ED's trek deviated right at the start. That is what I found odd.

BBM
This exactly.
ED might have been burbling about plans for several days (including to the guy who gave her a lift when she mentioned Toulouse), but she seems not to have followed through. At the very least, she was making it up as she went along, changing her mind....
This is a great example @RedHaus
My affirmation: LE says ED didn't go to the Refuge, and they couldn't find a sign of her in that area (presumably they looked especially closely at the stretch from the Pic to the Refuge.). So, what if that's because she didn't go that way at all?

 

[RickshawFan]

PAYG EU roaming charges were abolished a few years ago

Not roaming charges. Minutes.
I have a phone like that for when I'm in the UK, and have had one in other countries as well. You buy a card that has a value on it in euros/pounds/dollars whatever; you deposit this with the cell phone company. Then, each fraction of a minute you use gets charged against your deposit. Each day you use the phone, it also gets charged with a cover charge.
If someone calls you and leaves a voicemail with ums, hems, haws.... And then tries to reach you 5 times over... you're paying for all that hemming and hawing. And god forbid they're calling you 5 days in a row because each day has a cover charge.
A lot of travelers use phones like this all over the world. I re-filled mine in a Birmingham motorway rest stop as recently as 15 months ago.

 

[RedHaus]

BBM
This exactly.
ED might have been burbling about plans for several days (including to the guy who gave her a lift when she mentioned Toulouse), but she seems not to have followed through. At the very least, she was making it up as she went along, changing her mind....
This is a great example @RedHaus
My affirmation: LE says ED didn't go to the Refuge, and they couldn't find a sign of her in that area (presumably they looked especially closely at the stretch from the Pic to the Refuge.). So, what if that's because she didn't go that way at all?

BBM
Exactly, @RickshawFan and @stmarysmead from above, the reason this matters, IMO, is this may predict ED's route from 4:00pm 22/11 was not predictable.

 

[Grouse]

A totally theoretical timeline based around what I now know from the dossier and other sources , and trying to avoid getting carried away over imagining.

21st Nov

• "hitchhike to Hospital de Benasque" is extended as she gets the opportunity of a lift further along the trailhead. She gets dropped near Plan D'Estan. Sees there is a shelter there (it's right by the road).

• ascends the Pic ~ 10:30 and is up there and posting to IG at 13:10 - so the ascent has taken around 2- 2.5 hours

• descends at some point down the same path (not sure how long the descent would have taken), checks out Plan D'Estan (if she didn't already before she went up). Maybe decides it's a bit basic/no winter room (I can't seem to find much about it), sees Cabane de la Besurta on the map only 800m away and checks that out and prefers it so stays there (alone and with no phone signal). That shelter is also right by the road.

22nd Nov

• maybe explores, or hangs round the Cabane and starts the ascent around 13:00/13:30

• arrives at the Pic ~ 15:30 as we know

• receives a backlog of messages as she's been without signal all night

• appears, from the messaging, to maybe be hesitating/lingering on the Pic and is "Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room." (maybe but not necessarily worrying about it)

• descends to la Port de Venasque and has another think about the winter room or potential lack of, and decides to go back to la Besurta as she knows what facilities it had

ETA: as she stayed at Besurta the night before I would think it would be unlikely for any examination of the shelter to be able to confirm or rule out a second night

 

[jsoap]

Not roaming charges. Minutes.
I have a phone like that for when I'm in the UK, and have had one in other countries as well. You buy a card that has a value on it in euros/pounds/dollars whatever; you deposit this with the cell phone company. Then, each fraction of a minute you use gets charged against your deposit. Each day you use the phone, it also gets charged with a cover charge.
If someone calls you and leaves a voicemail with ums, hems, haws.... And then tries to reach you 5 times over... you're paying for all that hemming and hawing. And god forbid they're calling you 5 days in a row because each day has a cover charge.
A lot of travelers use phones like this all over the world. I re-filled mine in a Birmingham motorway rest stop as recently as 15 months ago.

They said they were using a Lycamoible SIM with no fee for receiving calls, and usually a local sim for data - this will be far cheaper than the international sims
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