Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[CoverMeCagney]

But surely that's the point? She did NOT succeed. She fell.

I just can’t imagine that Esther, who Dan thought would mainly be sensible and stuck to the trails, would look at that and consider it doable. I can’t imagine anyone would, unless they had a death wish (perhaps that’s what you mean)

Anyway, we don’t even know if where she fell was beneath that particular bit of ridge.

 

[Cryptic]

If so, it definitely looks pretty steep, but nothing imo that would require any kind of special skill- just endurance.

I think that is a good assessment.

I think the limits of her endurance could have been reached. Though she had the required level of endurance in theory, in actuality, she may of exceeded her endurance.

In the end, Esther was not only attempting the hike, she could well of been very undernourished, and was not dressed for the weather and was travelling very light gear wise for wet weather etc.

She was also facing several psychological challenges. She was not familiar with the area, did not know the local language, and could have been fearful to ask for help as she was violating COVID restrictions.

Compounding all of the other psychological challenges, she was alone. If exhaustion or even hypothermia set in, there was nobody to encourage her, nobody to assist in decision making and nobody to "veto" a bad decision.

Sadly, I think the totality was "A Bridge too Far"*. I suspect she went off trail, became disoriented, and succumbed to exhaustion.

* The title of a book about a WWII battle that was clearly winnable for allies in theory. In practice, a series of challenges compounded each other. The allied defeat was not for any one specific reason. Rather it was due to a series of relatively small compounding issues.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

I just can’t imagine that Esther, who Dan thought would mainly be sensible and stuck to the trails, would look at that and consider it doable. I can’t imagine anyone would, unless they had a death wish (perhaps that’s what you mean)

Anyway, we don’t even know if where she fell was beneath that particular bit of ridge.

Yes. Suicide. That is what I meant. A good view. And pitch up. No matter the consequences? I just don't know.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

Also I don't know why we're back to that ridge again? The falling place has been defined as between the Pic and the Port? As previously mentioned, she didn't need to reach the ridge, she could have just fallen before that?

My reply was to Grouse - part of an ongoing exchange about the route by which ED might have reached the point where she fell. I don't believe either of us think it's possible that she fell to the east of the peak, or indeed took that ridge at all. The picture is just more evidence against that possibility.

Might I respectfully suggest that we all slow down and consider our responses more carefully? This isn't a race.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Yes. Suicide. That is what I meant. A good view. And pitch up. No matter the consequences? I just don't know.

If it is proven that Esther fell from a particular spot (and I do believe they will be able to pinpoint it) we may never actually know with 100% certainty whether she fell or jumped. The only clues we are likely to get are from her phone or any notes she might have written.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Dropped from a drone? Yikes!

I did consider helicopter, but that's disrespectful to the local services...

 

[gribb0]

Here's another photograph along the ridge line, this time looking along the ridge from the summit of Pic de la Glère, again in the direction of the Pic de Sauvegarde, with the Pic de la Montagnette in between. Although snow obscures much of the detail (this was taken in June!) I can't see how this route would be walkable.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ai3F1DgSSog/U5RxYett6QI/AAAAAAAAdqM/gTdA-bb0oZg/s1600/30.-+La+Este+de+la+Glera+con+La+M0nta%C3%B1eta+y+Salvaguardia.+6-6-14..JPG

It's hard to tell without something for scale - check out google images of Sharp Edge on Blencathra in the english lake district or Crib Goch in Wales. Lower altitude but people have accidents scrambling on them every year. I can imagine if ED had walked up Pic de la Montagnette she might walk along the ridge to Glere

 

[fridaybaker]

Yes. Suicide. That is what I meant. A good view. And pitch up. No matter the consequences? I just don't know.

One point against suicide for me is that Esther would know that she would be endangering many, many people. She would have known that a huge SAR expedition would be launched. I just can’t wrap my mind around that.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I did consider helicopter, but that's disrespectful to the local services...

If it turns out that Esther was murdered and dropped onto the ledge by drone or helicopter, you can have my house

Look, if Esther had been found in the days soon after she vanished, we’d still be on thread 1 and everyone here would’ve been long gone by now.

The snow stopped the searching, it effectively paused the case, delayed the inevitable conclusion, and only led to so much conjecture, speculation, and ever wilder theories.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

One point against suicide for me is that Esther would know that she would be endangering many, many people. She would have known that a huge SAR expedition would be launched. I just can’t wrap my mind around that.

Then again, someone made a point earlier about her very hike being resistant to both common sense and Coronavirus restrictions. Perhaps she wasn't well? She slapped the back of her leg on the CCTV footage in the shop (was it at Benasque?) - was that a sign of a dead leg? Was she really low on fuel then? Her responsibilities to the environment she was in were admirable (her pockets full of litter she had picked), but perhaps her lack of self-care leading to the endangerment of others hadn't occurred to her? Perhaps this is proof it wasn't deliberate? Was she, sadly, just tired and lost orientation at height alone in the dark?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Then again, someone made a point earlier about her very hike being resistant to both common sense and Coronavirus restrictions. Perhaps she wasn't well? She slappe dthe back of her leg in the shop (was it at Benasque?) - was that a sign of a dead leg? Was she really low on fuel then? Her responsibilities to the environment she was in were admirable (her pockets full of litter she had picked), but perhaps her lack of self-care leading to the endangerment of others hadn't occurred to her?

There is a video of Esther and Dan somewhere, where mountain rescue is nearby searching for someone. They talk about what an amazing job SAR do in sometimes treacherous circumstances. She was fully aware. I’ll try and find it.

Found it!

 

[OEJ-JEO]

It's hard to tell without something for scale - check out google images of Sharp Edge on Blencathra in the english lake district or Crib Goch in Wales. Lower altitude but people have accidents scrambling on them every year.

That's true, and I was thinking about Crib Goch as I posted. But Crib Goch is a well documented and busy route. I haven't found any suggestion at all that this ridge is passable, walking or scrambling, and there's no reason to think that Esther was ever on the Pic de la Montagnette.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

There is a video of Esther and Dan somewhere, where mountain rescue is nearby searching for someone. They talk about what an amazing job SAR do in sometimes treacherous circumstances. She was fully aware. I’ll try and find it.

Nah I'm good. Seen it. Talking about services versus employing consideration of them in your own behaviour when in crisis completely different.

Although perhaps that raises a separate point. Her phone. Perhaps it was dead and there was no coverage? Especially if it was the next day? Or something happened to it? Perhaps she didn't fall at all? Perhaps that happened after death?

 

[Owlpellet]

That's a finally nicely balanced article from the good old Independent. DC's earlier conviction of foul play may have been self-persuasion. Perhaps he didn't want to believe she had some hidden crisis.

It is difficult when high-functioning people suffer poor mental health, as it's not always easy to tell they are in trouble. I think conjecture about DC is for the police.I do not want to add to his troubles by accusing him of something, which is awful as the papers all seem to be implying it when they talk about 'tensions in their relationship'. Another person might have done something at Sauvegarde, and I wonder if this has been DC's thesis.

A local would know all the ins and outs of the area. I even thought about a local authority cover-up to prevent tourism being deterred! DC probably hiked all around acknowledging a local would know where to go to conceal a body.

Then again, unfamiliar terrain will give unfamiliar results. I still think accident or suicide are the main possibilities. Or even accident under great emotional strain. When my blood sugar is low and I'm stressed, I can imagine being desperate and near a mountain top and even the physiological effects of that increasing the chances of my confusion or lack of coordination. I can get that in Tesco, never mind in the Pyrenees.

If ED did go there herself, and was not moved post mortem, I think a range of factors could have brought about her death could be quite simple, but more complex in that environment - including light failing and some poor decisions. For the sake of the family I am reticent to go all out with the suicide conclusion. I also don't want her to have suffered at all or at the hands of some dreadful person, so I resist that conclusion too, though it remains possible.

As it is, someone early this morning was stabbed to death around the corner from my house so I have to get away as there are so many police sirens and ambulances...

I really hope everyone pulls through. I'm sorry if ED made a fatal error. If she was in pain, I hope people realise that when we take our lives in our hands it can be a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and there's ALWAYS someone you can turn to, however desperate things feel. I often wonder if climbers and extreme hikers have a death wish. I have walked in the area ED was in, which spooks me but makes me feel close to her in spirit. Being 'in the clouds' is exactly how it feels.

At the same time, it's an extremely rugged area and there are no circumstances in which you would find me walking there on my own in November. It's not judgment on her I issue here, but rather, wasn't her hike a kind of withdrawal that got noticed too late? It's so difficult because I don't judge DC either. I think we all need to be more educated about mental health, to help ourselves as much as anything. Social withdrawal is the single most common sign of depression there is.

Yes I agree, but Esther seemed to be making lots of friends on her travels and arranging to go on long walks with them, some of them overnight... so it doesn’t sound to me that she was socially withdrawn at all.

 

[RickshawFan]

very unlikely she would have continued up the Pic from the Port/col esp with big sack. and would have been an unlikely/long fall to end up at 2200m near a path..

Two points:
-I'm actually quite surprised ED had a bulky pack with her if she wanted to scramble up the PicdelaG. It would be easy to throw you off balance and might prevent you from squirming up/down a tight spot. Plus, there's absolutely no one around. I would have ditched it at the PortdelaG, scrambled without it, and picked it up again after my little peak-bagging adventure.
-remains didn't end up at 2200m near a path except one piece of skull. The remains were found above the PortdelaG and below the PicdelaG. That's much higher than the 2200m level. Either an animal would have moved the skull piece (per LE), or it rolled down, taken by gravity, or carried on water streaming down the mountain from snowmelt or a storm. If simply gravity or water, you'd first look vertically upwards to find the remains. That seems to be what happened. With animals involved, there's no telling where you'd look.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

c'mon guys- can we all agree that she was found near a path on the french side of port de la glere?

at 2200m...

The part of her skull that was found previously was said to have been at about the 2200m contour on the French side. Reports of the location of the rest of her remains and her belongings are confused at the moment, and some reports contradict others, but I don't believe there's good reason to think - at present - that her body was found near a path at 2200m.

I do think there's good reason to wait until we know more before speculating further though, and that's what I intend to do!

 

[poirotoupierrot]

If it turns out that Esther was murdered and dropped onto the ledge by drone or helicopter, you can have my house

Look, if Esther had been found in the days soon after she vanished, we’d still be on thread 1 and everyone here would’ve been long gone by now.

The snow stopped the searching, it effectively paused the case, delayed the inevitable conclusion, and only led to so much conjecture, speculation, and ever wilder theories.

Yes I agree, but Esther seemed to be making lots of friends on her travels and arranging to go on long walks with them, some of them overnight... so it doesn’t sound to me that she was socially withdrawn at all.

Not being socially withdrawn and asking people around you as there's no-one else is very different.

The fact is, she was hiking alone, at night, in the Pyrenees, and no-one saw her after a certain point, and there were no more phone updates.

It suggests something happened overnight or the next day.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

If it turns out that Esther was murdered and dropped onto the ledge by drone or helicopter, you can have my house

Look, if Esther had been found in the days soon after she vanished, we’d still be on thread 1 and everyone here would’ve been long gone by now.

The snow stopped the searching, it effectively paused the case, delayed the inevitable conclusion, and only led to so much conjecture, speculation, and ever wilder theories.

Yes I agree, but Esther seemed to be making lots of friends on her travels and arranging to go on long walks with them, some of them overnight... so it doesn’t sound to me that she was socially withdrawn at all.

Being socially withdrawn and asking people around you as there's no-one else is very different.

The fact is, she was hiking alone, at night, in the Pyrenees, and no-one saw her after a certain point, and there were no more phone updates.

The part of her skull that was found previously was said to have been at about the 2200m contour on the French side. Reports of the location of the rest of her remains and her belongings are confused at the moment, and some reports contradict others, but I don't believe there's good reason to think - at present - that her body was found near a path at 2200m.

I do think there's good reason to wait until we know more before speculating further though, and that's what I intend to do!

It suggests something happened overnight or the next day.



Yep, I'm giving up - for now.

 

[poirotoupierrot]

Two points:
-I'm actually quite surprised ED had a bulky pack with her if she wanted to scramble up the PicdelaG. It would be easy to throw you off balance and might prevent you from squirming up/down a tight spot. Plus, there's absolutely no one around. I would have ditched it at the PortdelaG, scrambled without it, and picked it up again after my little peak-bagging adventure.
-remains didn't end up at 2200m near a path except one piece of skull. The remains were found above the PortdelaG and below the PicdelaG. That's much higher than the 2200m level. Either an animal would have moved the skull piece (per LE), or it rolled down, taken by gravity, or carried on water streaming down the mountain from snowmelt or a storm. If simply gravity or water, you'd first look vertically upwards to find the remains. That seems to be what happened. With animals involved, there's no telling where you'd look.

The big pack also suggest to me that if she did plan to finish her life, it was an impromptu thing. That, or circumstances prevailed to take her life, rather than her choosing it. Perhaps that is a comfort to the family. Also, I remember her backpack was nearby. That would make sense, if she had kept it on the whole time, and either fallen by accident or lost consciousness due to exposure and fallen, no? I really should go now....

 

[RickshawFan]

Here's another photograph along the ridge line, this time looking along the ridge from the summit of Pic de la Glère, again in the direction of the Pic de Sauvegarde, with the Pic de la Montagnette in between. Although snow obscures much of the detail (this was taken in June!) I can't see how this route would be walkable.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ai3F1DgSSog/U5RxYett6QI/AAAAAAAAdqM/gTdA-bb0oZg/s1600/30.-+La+Este+de+la+Glera+con+La+M0nta%C3%B1eta+y+Salvaguardia.+6-6-14..JPG

Yep, crazy. Definitely not along that ridge. Thanks for the photo.
When I looked at the map early on, I looked for trails along the flank of these peaks, and couldn't find one. If there were such a thing, you wouldn't have to go all the way into the valley to get from the PortdeV to the PortdelaG, so that might be an advantage, though perhaps not, depending on terrain. There is such a trail along the Spanish flank in the other direction from the PicdeS. Hikers use it to make a loop down to the Hospice (see journal and spectacular photos: Randonnée Pic Sauvegarde 2738m – Les Topos Pyrénées par Mariano . This gave me the idea that there could be a trail from PortdeV and PortdelaG without having to go down to the valley, but as you can see, not a snowball's chance in hell...
The quickest way to get there was down to the Cabane (a trail ED already knew well, because she'd done it 3x) and then up to the PortdelaG. Otherwise, she'd have to make a big loop via the Hospice or Otto's shortcut which is extremely dicey. SAR/LE found no evidence that she'd headed in those directions: they were quite clear.
'We have nothing': police stumped by disappearance of Briton in Pyrenees

French LE commentary on the early search. I am placing this here also as a way of bumping it from earlier threads, since there seems to be some discussion here that French LE were not supportive enough. Missing hiker: French police reject UK press 'speculation'