The accusation that TH tried to abduct the baby

[GrainneDhu]

Abductions don't require breaking of an RO. You can abduct your own child even if there is never, was never, an RO. Parents going through a divorce abduct their own children - it happens. The RO is simply not the only - or even primary - factor in parental abduction.

At this point, since TMH has not been charged let alone convicted of anything, the same thing applies to KH: he abducted baby K by waiting until TMH was out of the way and leaving the house with baby K.

Under the circumstances, I doubt that there will be any negative repercussions for KH... unless TMH is found legally not guilty of all of the allegations against her. And then some family court judge will have a horrible case to decide.

 

[butwhatif?]

In addition, the court filing stated that a clerk at a gym frequented by the Horman's said Terri came there on about June 28, before the restraining order was in place, and tried to “abduct” Kiara Harmon, in the words of the gym worker. Terri reportedly asked specifically when Kaine was there working out and to let her know the next time he appeared. The clerk told the manager what happened and the manager then contacted police.

This as a non-issue to me for two reasons.

1. There was no RO in place at the time.

2. She was obviously the one to drop baby K at the gym child care centre, if Kaine wasn't there. Sounds to me like she dropped off baby K, had her work out, and then picked up Baby K. That's how it happens all the time at the gym.

The only semi- interesting part is that she wanted to be told about the next time he came in....'prob cause he was avoiding all contact with her.
moo

 

[GrainneDhu]

I agree, but my feelings about TH being "in the dark" are not innocent. IMO, TH not understanding her predicament and how her actions could be perceived or interpreted as highly strange or guilty-seeming defy my comprehension. TH's being in the dark is certainly not - to me - anything that could be viewed at as victim-like ignorance at this point. I strongly feel she keeps herself in the dark, because she believes everything she does is normal and justified. To have no concept why KH and her baby are gone for as long as they were and to "thumbs up" the household situation to the reporters is beyond me... an alert parent (bio or step) of a missing child - Kyron - should be consumed with taking all appropriate measures to behave for the case, not herself.

I have no understanding why she would not have picked up on clues that KH left the premises completely, given what we now know, unless she has made herself to feel flawless.

SBM

To be fair, she may have felt that what she viewed as personal problems with KH were not something she wanted to air in the media. There's a lot of social pressure not to wash one's dirty laundry in public, etc.

 

[GrainneDhu]

IIRC, KH didn't do it *to* TH, he did it *because of* TH, based on what LE told him about her soliciting someone to kill him. Not the same thing at all, IMO.

I should have been more clear.

I believe that in the legal sense, their two actions would be considered equivalent. While KH has good reason to believe the allegations he has made against TMH, they have not been proven in any court. There was no RO filed at the time, etc.

IF TMH is factually innocent (which, frankly, I doubt at this point), then KH basically abducted baby K.

I agree that KH had good reasons for his actions. I have no doubt that he really does believe the allegations he is making.

 

[Donjeta]

This as a non-issue to me for two reasons.

1. There was no RO in place at the time.

2. She was obviously the one to drop baby K at the gym child care centre, if Kaine wasn't there. Sounds to me like she dropped off baby K, had her work out, and then picked up Baby K. That's how it happens all the time at the gym.

The only semi- interesting part is that she wanted to be told about the next time he came in....'prob cause he was avoiding all contact with her.
moo

I don't know how it works in that gym but in such daycare facilities that I have used (very few, admittedly), the person who picks the child up needs to be the same one who left the child there. In one place you've given a receipt for the child and you need to show that one when you pick the child up, and in another they give you a stamp on the hand and it needs to match the stamp on the child.

 

[21merc7]

Not to be a stickler for details, but did Kaine announce to Terri that he was going to file a restraining order on her? As far as I understand it, he left the house with baby K and didn't return. From her perspective, HE could have been trying to 'abduct' baby K from HER, and she responded accordingly by attempting to find out where baby K was.

I totally agree. After all, even DY felt the same some years back.

Why is this so mountain molehill?

 

[Donjeta]

I totally agree. After all, even DY felt the same some years back.

Why is this so mountain molehill?

Probably because he has one child missing already and it is alleged that she might know why.

 

[ami]

It's a big deal because she may have abducted another child in her care. It's a big deal because she's demonstrated poor decision making, poor boundaries, the willingness to lie and manipulate and possible the desire to conspire to murder. I think that makes almost anything she does to/with vulnerable children a very big deal.

At this point, since TMH has not been charged let alone convicted of anything, the same thing applies to KH: he abducted baby K by waiting until TMH was out of the way and leaving the house with baby K.

Isolating a child from another parent is only appropriate *if you have reason to believe your child is in danger from the other parent* - Kaine DID have reason to believe that. Terri did not. The same act can have very different meanings depending on your motive and intentions. A woman picking her child up from daycare is NORMALLY not a big deal. When the woman is allegedly a danger to her family, it IS a big deal.

For arguments' sake, let's pose that TH actually kidnapped Kyron from school that day. While she was removing him from the school and putting him into her truck, was she legally doing anything wrong? No. It was her (alleged) intention that would have separated her actions from any other sane parent removing their child early from school. Was TH legally doing anything wrong by trying to take baby K from the gym daycare? No. But how can any of us say that this woman definitely had no evil intent? How can we say she was not trying to abduct the baby? We simply don't know.

Repeatedly making the point that the RO wasn't handed to her yet doesn't mean she wasn't doing anything wrong. Again, IF she kidnapped Kyron, the moment she walked out of the school with him she wouldn't have been doing anything legally wrong, either, yet it would have been the point of no return for that child. I for one have no problem keeping an open mind that baby K COULD have been in danger and needed MORE protection than an average child needs from their mother.

 

[believe09]

I should have been more clear.

I believe that in the legal sense, their two actions would be considered equivalent. While KH has good reason to believe the allegations he has made against TMH, they have not been proven in any court. There was no RO filed at the time, etc.

IF TMH is factually innocent (which, frankly, I doubt at this point), then KH basically abducted baby K.

I agree that KH had good reasons for his actions. I have no doubt that he really does believe the allegations he is making.

BBM-not really. Custodial interference could be considered if there was some kind of order in place defining custody and visitation.

 

[butwhatif?]

I don't know how it works in that gym but in such daycare facilities that I have used (very few, admittedly), the person who picks the child up needs to be the same one who left the child there. In one place you've given a receipt for the child and you need to show that one when you pick the child up, and in another they give you a stamp on the hand and it needs to match the stamp on the child.

Exactly. So either Kaine was there having his workout session , which would explain why it was deemed 'abduction' by the staffer if he had been the one to drop Baby K there.

Or, they were both working out at the same place and same time, but sperately (weird) and Kaine dropped baby K off and terri tried to pick her up.

Or terri dropped off baby K , worked out, and picked her up and staff got suspicious about why she was asking about when Kaine would be there. Staff being super vigilent under the circumstances.

( OT: Sorry, I've had a busy day, and have broken my own personal rule of not posting before reading all media links, PDF's and posts.)

But that linked statement from the gym staffer is clear as mud, imo.....

BWI off to catch up.:run:

 

[Donjeta]

I think the baby wasn't there at the time Terri was asking questions and Kaine might not have been either, she was trying to set something up for the future. It happened after Kaine had gone off with the baby so Terri couldn't have been the one who dropped her off at the daycare even if the baby was there.

I think Kaine had probably explained the situation to the daycare worker and said that Terri was not to pick the baby up. At least I would, if I had a RO against my ex in the works, and left my child somewhere they may know my ex and think she's got the right to my child.

He might also have stayed away from the gym altogether until the RO was filed. I think it would have been wise if he thought she was after him.

 

[Trident]

Boy do I dissagree with this.

There's reasons to jump to all KINDS of conclusions with this woman given what we know.

Actually, I don't KNOW much of anything, LE seems to be close-mouthed and haven't even named Terri a POI. In fact, didn't they say everyone was a POI?

From where I sit there's a lot of dirt here and so far we've only been treated to half of it.

My opinion only

 

[Donjeta]

From where I stand, if half of what we've been told is true, and if Terri isn't a person of interest, I would have to ask why. If she was the last person to see Kyron in a crowded school, if she had trouble explaining where she went afterwards, if she's been acting incongruently afterwards and disengaged from the search efforts, if there is reason to believe that she might have wanted to hurt her husband earlier, if there is a lot of family dirt that might constitute a motive for her - if she's still not interesting to the police I don't know what would be enough.

It doesn't exclude other persons being on the list but I can't imagine the police being uninterested about her.

 

[cindysue]

Someone at the gym is accusing Terri of trying to abduct the baby, but they only quote her as asking for someone to notify her the next time Kaine comes to the gym? Sounds like jumping to conclusions, to me.

But she went to the gym daycare and asked someone there right? So the purpose wasnt to know when he was there but to know when the baby was there or she would ask someone at the front desk.

I had a situatioin where i left my abusive husband and he did kidnap the kids, but as soon as i got the law invovled he returned them, this is how normal people would resolve it but in this case im sure she knew she couldnt do that based on what shes suspected of. So hense the secret pickup plan, the scarey part is what would she have done if she was able to pick her up..

 

[AbbieNormal]

So, if it shows up in full or part in the NE we shouldn't be surprised? Sure hope he didn't sell it. Just thinking aloud.[/QUOTE

The 2 people he shared it with were probably DY and TY. They aren't likely to leak anything. JMO

 

[butwhatif?]

The highlighted part is in the court document. It says, "...Respondent came to that location looking to "abduct" her daughter [name], from the gym daycare center while Petitioner worked out at the gym. Respondent asked the clerk to contact her if Petitioner came to the gym with [child]"
I don't think we can blame the media for sensationalism if they report what's in an affidavit

bbm
They didnt though,IMO. They left out the key details.

The court document clears everything up, for me at least.

jmo

 

[AbbieNormal]

People with Bipolar (I) are impulsive...they don't plan things like she did BUT hypersexuality can be part of BP... Sorry...but I can't stand people just throwing around the BP label...she would have displayed erratic symptoms long ago....it doesn't just "come on" at her age. Or, at least, in all my readings about it. I'm Bipolar II.

ETA: I see this was just posted, as well. Thanks for posting, GingerRed.

Hearing BP being thrown into every dysfunctional persons behavior (Hollywood, cases we follow on boards) makes me ill too. My daughter is BiPolar/ rapid cycling. Its not a catch-all diagnosis. Its specific behavior/ disorder and doesn't necessairly lead to homocide, as some people now beleive it does due to all the false info they have been fed by MSM and suppositions on boards. Everyone probably knows someone who is BP and they don;t even know it. Most are well maintained on the proper meds. Its a miserable way to live until you get the meds right and have good counseling.
IMO good family support helps a lot too. Its misunderstood widely, IMO.

 

[Donjeta]

I'd say it's too late for anybody to sell the RO documents because it was already unsealed and published.

 

[grayjay]

I disagree that this is nothing-I think it shows specifically that her intention was to go get the child. Prior to the order being served, possession is the law.
JBean said it well-she did not call Kaine and say I will meet you at the gym, I want the baby. SHE did not go to the courthouse and say OMG, my husband and child are missing...I want my baby.

It was a sneak attack IMO.

ITA.

It appears to me that LE sided with KH and the custody issue was temporarily settled during a 911 phone call late Saturday night. I'm going to guess that she didn't take the outcome from that day and that incident as seriously as everyone else does.

 

[mchris1024]

At this point, since TMH has not been charged let alone convicted of anything, the same thing applies to KH: he abducted baby K by waiting until TMH was out of the way and leaving the house with baby K.

Under the circumstances, I doubt that there will be any negative repercussions for KH... unless TMH is found legally not guilty of all of the allegations against her. And then some family court judge will have a horrible case to decide.

I agree, because I've been involved in child custody issues I think her trying to get her little girl however she had to is one of the FEW things she has done in the last month that makes sense. My attorney advised me one time to wait until the ex dropped her off at daycare and then go and get her and "go away" for a few days until he could get some papers filed. I have to say I was actually glad to hear she had put up some kind of fight for her little girl because it's one of the things that have stunk to high heaven to me about this case. I also find it interesting the KH is still a regular at the gym.....