The (Alleged) Abduction

[hambirg]

Gosh, watching the press conference is CHILLING! Longo says (regarding the car), "Somebody got out of it and somebody got back in it...and somebody drove away."

This is my theory and take on it. On Friday, September 19th they searched the Rivanna River between Darden Towe Park and Riverview Park. http://www.timesdispatch.com/multim...ion_88fa78a9-9844-5121-91b2-a3b32e76a72d.html

We know Hannah's iphone went off the grid at 1:40ish am. I think LE was able to track her location via the phone.

MOO If JM drove somewhere like 5 minutes down E High St/Hwy 20 he could have accessed the river to dispose of Hannah's phone. Interestingly, right before Hwy 250 is a large unfenced gravel lot with an access trail to the river. That lot is adjacent to a body shop which happens to have a surveillance camera pointed at the lot.

My theory is that LE tracked Hannah's phone, and pulled video of JM leaving the car to throw Hannah's phone in the river, returning to the car, and driving away. I don't think they were able to see Hannah on that tape. IMHO she was incapacitated from being drugged by JM at Tempo.

Replace "somebody" with Jesse Matthew in that statement and it makes perfect sense.



:moo:

 

[themom]

Just brainstorming, but JM just started coaching a high school football team.

Also, who knows if JM was one of the lackeys for someone else in a bigger killing circle? JM occasionally takes one for himself, but is typically in charge of just abducting? That's a whole other can of worms, and would probably require a new Thread topic! "JM a part of a larger killing ring"

 

[cluciano63]

I took it as Longo explaining what must have happened, i.e getting out car (JM when he parked it) and getting back in (when he left) and was trying to say/ask for anyone who saw any of that but jmo.

 

[razzledazzle]

Also, who knows if JM was one of the lackeys for someone else in a bigger killing circle? JM occasionally takes one for himself, but is typically in charge of just abducting? That's a whole other can of worms, and would probably require a new Thread topic! "JM a part of a larger killing ring"

At the risk of being O/T, I will just say that I have recently been keeping some theories tucked away in the back of my mind. Now I will move on....

 

[themom]

At the risk of being O/T, I will just say that I have recently been keeping some theories tucked away in the back of my mind. Now I will move on....

We need am O/T forum! Strictly for anything that doesn't belong in any forum already here!
Or a theories forum. That would be interesting. [emoji3]

 

[whiskers]

This probably goes in the thread about what happened the night she disappeared. (But I'd like to reply because of inferred drug use here. We have no facts surrounding this.) From the timeline when I piece it together, she leaves a dinner/party and goes back to her apartment. I'm thinking she received a text about another party happening and went to find it. Maybe she had a crush on a guy and hoped he'd be at one of the parties. If you read her Twitter feed, she even comments how it's a good thing she doesn't like treadmills because she can't walk in a straight line. You can see that from her long stride and gait.

If you have followed any cases and trials in Va. they are notoriously tight lipped. I'm sure LE has told her friends not to talk to the media and to clamp down on social media.

 

[whiskers]

Sorry, Bessie you had to move this! I'm trying. Truly am. (But sometimes feel the need to respond in thread where I read it. Thank you for moving.)

 

[Conductor71]

I took it as Longo explaining what must have happened, i.e getting out car (JM when he parked it) and getting back in (when he left) and was trying to say/ask for anyone who saw any of that but jmo.

I haven't seen a link to this? I am not challenging anyone, but I thought Longo said he thought Hannah was in JM's car? Is there video footage of this?

Just wondering because this appeal was made by Longo on September 30th.

Police say they are going back to square one in the Graham case by going back over information and reviewing surveillance. Police say they are desperately searching for more video surveillance that shows Matthew, Graham, or both of them together. They are not just looking for footage from cameras in the downtown Charlottesville area. Police can only track Matthew and Graham up to 1:40 a.m. on September 13 on the downtown mall in Charlottesville.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26665497/police-continue-search-for-surveillance-video-of-graham-matthew

I take it that he did indeed get footage of them together after 1:40 am?

 

[jbowman55]

I don't really know where to put this post, so I'm putting it here since the alleged abduction ended with Hannah being found at the 3193 address.

A snippet:

Second Tipster Identified

He came around the back of the empty house and saw a cut in the treeline, and that’s where he entered the woods. He stepped cautiously, noticing a lot of garbage in the brush— broken glass, discarded oil cans— and he didn’t come to a stop until the fallen limbs and branches became impassable.

In the trees above him, the black vultures hissed and grunted. The birds were massive, any slight movement on their part seemed to shake the entire tree. The land fell away at his feet, dropping down a hill to the creek bed below. He scanned the woods, not quite sure what he was looking for— maybe some clothes, perhaps a body.


I'll post a link to Coy's Inside C-ville blog entry from today, but once I'd read it, I started wondering about the topography at 3193. If you haven't seen it before, please take a look at

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&...YHIAw&ved=0CBUQ8gEoATAA&output=classic&dg=brw

Then go to coordinates:

37.924803,-78.614945

Here's the link to Coy's blog entry:

http://insidecville.com/blog/exclusive-looking-for-hannah/

Somehow this seems significant. I guess I just hadn't imagined before that the land would drop away down a steep hill behind those houses, but you can see somewhat on the topo map that it does.

 

[jamicat]

As of right now, the alleged abduction with intent to defile is very important as it is the case on the table regarding what happened to Hannah and unless LE has found some good evidence placing JM where Hannah was found or that he harmed, killed Hannah, this could be the main charge. It's not even a slam dunk charge IMO, because it hangs on the witness accounts that Hannah looked very incapacitated at 1:40 AM, hardly able to stand and walk unsupported. No one saw Hannah having a drink at Tempo, no evidence that Hannah did NOT agree to go with JM for whatever, including a sexual interlude. This could be a tough allegation to prove in court. Many on this victim friendly board have even expressed doubts as to whether or not Hannah was "tricked" into going with JM; clearly people believe she may have gone willingly for more than just a ride back to the corner. So proving this in court beyond reasonable doubt is going to be quite the job for the DA if some critical evidence did not come up.

 

[Conductor71]

As of right now, the alleged abduction with intent to defile is very important as it is the case on the table regarding what happened to Hannah and unless LE has found some good evidence placing JM where Hannah was found or that he harmed, killed Hannah, this could be the main charge. It's not even a slam dunk charge IMO, because it hangs on the witness accounts that Hannah looked very incapacitated at 1:40 AM, hardly able to stand and walk unsupported. No one saw Hannah having a drink at Tempo, no evidence that Hannah did NOT agree to go with JM for whatever, including a sexual interlude. This could be a tough allegation to prove in court. Many on this victim friendly board have even expressed doubts as to whether or not Hannah was "tricked" into going with JM; clearly people believe she may have gone willingly for more than just a ride back to the corner. So proving this in court beyond reasonable doubt is going to be quite the job for the DA if some critical evidence did not come up.

Good points. I think even witnesses and video are weak evidence given how we are all over the map with our "readings". I would think that a toxicology report is absolutely essential in proving intent to defile, and I am not sure if there were enough tissue to sample based on description of remains.

 

[jamicat]

Good points. I think even witnesses and video are weak evidence given how we are all over the map with our "readings". I would think that a toxicology report is absolutely essential in proving intent to defile, and I am not sure if there were enough tissue to sample based on description of remains.

The date rape drugs tend to dissipate quickly so I doubt anything is going to find in that respect. Maybe LE was lucky enough to find the beer bottle with dregs of the drug and Hannah's DNA at the mouth, but that's a long shot. There really isn't even any proof he gave her ANYTHING to drink. No one saw that The statement Tempo has given made that clear. No one even saw her there other than one possible witness and the manager of Tempo refutes that ID. So ironically, the only people one can nail for giving her alcohol (and she is underage for that) are her fellow UVA students who have readily admitted there was a lot of drinking going on at those parties where Hannah was and that Hannah had had too much to drink.

If anything JM did the chivalrous thing helping a drunk girl who by 1:40 AM could hardly drink to the car for a ride. It's after that point where something, everything went terrilby wrong, and there had better be very good evidence for a murder charge. I don't think this is even a strong case for that Abduction with intent to defile charge. For all anyone knows, Hannah might have agreed to go off with JM for some recreational sex activities. No teling what the conversation was after the two of them got togeher. WG who saw that encounter out and out said that it looked like he knew her. No resistance from Hannah, no abduction seen there.

 

[goldenbear]

Good points. I think even witnesses and video are weak evidence given how we are all over the map with our "readings". I would think that a toxicology report is absolutely essential in proving intent to defile, and I am not sure if there were enough tissue to sample based on description of remains.

You had inquired about teeth ID . Vultures tear out the teeth I do not think any were left to ID. IMO Chemical tests on the body after several weeks would not show drugs so you are correct the evidence of defile is weak. IMO

:fence:

 

[Ghostwheel]

Good points. I think even witnesses and video are weak evidence given how we are all over the map with our "readings". I would think that a toxicology report is absolutely essential in proving intent to defile, and I am not sure if there were enough tissue to sample based on description of remains.

IF something was found in JMs car (say the gold top or underwear), then circumstantial evidence could lead to "Intent to defile". Who leaves a car without their top or underwear? I do happen to believe they found something else of Hannah's, have another witness or video, or found something on the remains/clothes we don't know about (gag order, you know).

 

[jbowman55]

I have been thinking about the timing of events on the Downtown Mall.

We all know of the video at Sal's that captured Hannah, WG, JM, and the group of guys following Hannah at 1:06 am.

We know of Tempo's statement that JM paid for two drinks at 1:10 am.

That's four minutes to walk from Sal's to Tempo, decide to order drinks, decide which drinks to order, walk inside, place order, receive drinks, and pay for drinks. Fast, huh?

Then there's a lull in things. Looking at the street view on Google Maps, the street in front of Tempo isn't designed for automobile traffic, so I suppose there could be people milling around, but it also isn't like the Downtown Mall, where there is landscaping, tables, little conversation areas with nice places to sit down and enjoy a drink.

So there's time between 1:10 am and 1:40 or 1:45 am, 30 to 35 minutes, where HG and JM are apparently just milling around outside, since the door tender at Tempo saw HG practically incapacitated at 1:40ish. During this time I have supposed that JM sent text to Hannah's friends after he either borrowed or took her phone. I guess I had just pictured in my mind that there would have been a time that the two of them sat down together and were talking, a more comfortable situation than just milling around in the street.

So did they walk up to the Mall, sit down and have a conversation, and then walk back? Or were they just standing around outside Tempo that whole time? If so, then how was JM able to spike HG's drink, borrow her cell phone, send a text that wasn't what he probably represented it to be, etc. There's something about that that I just can't reconcile in my mind.

What were they doing? What were they talking about all that time? What could they possibly have in common to keep Hannah "attached" to JM for that long that she didn't just call someone for a ride or try to communicate with friends again? Why would HG have let JM lead her down that creepy side street away from the Mall in the first place? (assuming that's what happened, but I tell you, I've walked 2nd and 3rd Streets in that area on the way to the Paramount; that late at night I know those streets would be seriously creepy to me.)

I don't get it. Maybe locals can weigh in and change the picture I have of the area in front of Tempo at that time on a Friday night/Saturday morning.

 

[wary]

I have been thinking about the timing of events on the Downtown Mall.

We all know of the video at Sal's that captured Hannah, WG, JM, and the group of guys following Hannah at 1:06 am.

We know of Tempo's statement that JM paid for two drinks at 1:10 am.

That's four minutes to walk from Sal's to Tempo, decide to order drinks, decide which drinks to order, walk inside, place order, receive drinks, and pay for drinks. Fast, huh? BBM

Then there's a lull in things. Looking at the street view on Google Maps, the street in front of Tempo isn't designed for automobile traffic, so I suppose there could be people milling around, but it also isn't like the Downtown Mall, where there is landscaping, tables, little conversation areas with nice places to sit down and enjoy a drink.

So there's time between 1:10 am and 1:40 or 1:45 am, 30 to 35 minutes, where HG and JM are apparently just milling around outside, since the door tender at Tempo saw HG practically incapacitated at 1:40ish. During this time I have supposed that JM sent text to Hannah's friends after he either borrowed or took her phone. I guess I had just pictured in my mind that there would have been a time that the two of them sat down together and were talking, a more comfortable situation than just milling around in the street.

So did they walk up to the Mall, sit down and have a conversation, and then walk back? Or were they just standing around outside Tempo that whole time? If so, then how was JM able to spike HG's drink, borrow her cell phone, send a text that wasn't what he probably represented it to be, etc. There's something about that that I just can't reconcile in my mind.

What were they doing? What were they talking about all that time? What could they possibly have in common to keep Hannah "attached" to JM for that long that she didn't just call someone for a ride or try to communicate with friends again? Why would HG have let JM lead her down that creepy side street away from the Mall in the first place? (assuming that's what happened, but I tell you, I've walked 2nd and 3rd Streets in that area on the way to the Paramount; that late at night I know those streets would be seriously creepy to me.)

I don't get it. Maybe locals can weigh in and change the picture I have of the area in front of Tempo at that time on a Friday night/Saturday morning.

I have a minor quibble about the bolded part. Do we have any reason to believe that both of those times were accurate? Obviously, the timing on the video at Sal's isn't going to be synchronized with the cash register at Tempo's. I know that cash registers don't always have the correct time. Does anyone know if security cameras use some sort of centralized overall timing, or do they just use the time for which they were set?

Here's a related question. I've been told that if you use a credit card at a cash register, the time printed on the receipt is more apt to be accurate, because it uses the credit card system's time. However, they didn't get the 'time at Tempo' from a receipt, I think, but from the cash register's internal information. So, would that use the 'cash register time', rather than 'real time'? I'm guessing that it would. (Otherwise, if the cash register was off by several minutes, which is common, all sorts of weirdness could happen in the record-keeping.)

 

[jamicat]

I don't know how accurate the times are. Security camera times are notoriously incorrect. The last text that Hannah sent was supposed to be at 1:06AM. Do any of the tapes show her texting? It is possible there is more video footage than LE has shown after Hannah and JM got together. We don't know when the camera trail ended. Just know that there are no cameras around Tempo where they ended up before leaving the mall area, most likely to the car. But my guess is that the emphasis is not on what they were doing in the mall area. Hannah was clearly alive at 1:40AM.

LE has out and out said that they desperately want ANY footage, ANy sighting of either Hannah, JM, both of them after 1:40 AM, so my guess is that the last sighting of either of them in that are was at that time in front of Tempo. Very telling that they so want anything thereafter. I think it indicates they really did not have any idea where they went after leaving the mall area. That there were no tapes of them getting into JM's car. My guess is that the evidence that she got into the car is due to Hannah's DNA found in the car or maybe finger prints. Whether it's any thing more than hair, we don't know.

 

[sixecho]

I have a minor quibble about the bolded part. Do we have any reason to believe that both of those times were accurate? Obviously, the timing on the video at Sal's isn't going to be synchronized with the cash register at Tempo's. I know that cash registers don't always have the correct time. Does anyone know if security cameras use some sort of centralized overall timing, or do they just use the time for which they were set?

Here's a related question. I've been told that if you use a credit card at a cash register, the time printed on the receipt is more apt to be accurate, because it uses the credit card system's time. However, they didn't get the 'time at Tempo' from a receipt, I think, but from the cash register's internal information. So, would that use the 'cash register time', rather than 'real time'? I'm guessing that it would. (Otherwise, if the cash register was off by several minutes, which is common, all sorts of weirdness could happen in the record-keeping.)

Yeah, timestamps are a big issue for us and we can only speculate but LE should be able to sync the times with ease.

 

[4 Free Speech]

We need am O/T forum! Strictly for anything that doesn't belong in any forum already here!
Or a theories forum. That would be interesting. [emoji3]

I agree - can we have a theories forum on Hannah Graham and the other missing girls? Commonalities? Coincidences?

 

[4 Free Speech]

IF I were LE - I would get the names of all of JLM's family, have someone on staff look up land owned by them past and present.
Look for connections, grudges, losses, arrests, imprisonments, etc. that might be connected to locations of bodies in any of the disappearance cases that JLM may have committed.

Look for perceived injustices, connections to historical figures such as George Carr the alias used by JLM in TX, who was brother in law of Thomas Jefferson and may have owned slaves.

Find out about old family grievances:
Did JLM's father become an alcoholic because of a job loss? If so, who fired him?
Did his mother get hurt by someone who owns the Quarry or another potential place that JLM might take HG?
Did his grandfather die because of stress due to some legal or property problem or lack of medical attention?

MH was found on land owned by a super-big wig in county politics - longtime head of the Zoning Board.
Did JLM place MH there to embarrass or exact vengeance on Mr. Bass?
Did someone in JLM's family lose their property or its value because of zoning, taxes, etc. due to a decision by Mr. Bass?
Was JLM angry not to be invited to the Seven Mile Sleepover? Or was he there?
Was there a connection to Bass and JLM's family?
Did Mr. Bass or one of the new property owners of the subdivision refuse to let JLM fish on his creek banks?

Did JLM kill Cassandra Morton and place her ( a drug user, etc.) on Liberty U. property on purpose to embarrass the school for ousting him for his behavior?

A grudge with a psychopath or sociopath can be real due to some event small or large or...imagined or just feeling 'dissed' by someone.

My working hypothesis is - The abductions/kills are spontaneous, unplanned, a matter of opportunity, and there seems to be no stalking ahead of time, but the deposition of (some of the) bodies may be intentional and motivated by vengeance because of JLM's or his family's grudges.

ADDENDUM - Another question for LE
Did the artist/musician daughter of Mr. Bass (forgot her name) where the Seven Mile Sleepover was held, or any of their friends get a ride in JLM's taxi to the Bass farm where MH was discovered?


JMO

Thank you so much for posting this! I have been documenting Anchorage Farm / David Bass / Jenny Bass 7 Mile Sleepover / Red Hill Elementary / Timeframes and the commonalities and I am totally tracking with you. I will summarize my findings and repost.