the charges: 2nd Degree Child Cruelty and Murder - What does it all mean?

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RANCH said:
Where can I find the actual statute for the new Georgia law about this. I saw a post on another thread but there was no link to the source.

I would really like to read the source material. If you don't have it, that's okay. I'll try to find it on my own.
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It was just posted in the general thread. The big long thread about the law I referred to :)
 
Here's the new law quoted from Pigpong's post on the general thread:

(a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.

(b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

(c) A person commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

(d) A person commits the offense of murder in the second degree when, in the commission of cruelty to children in the second degree, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

(e)(1) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death, by imprisonment for life without parole, or by imprisonment for life.

(2) A person convicted of the offense of murder in the second degree shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than ten nor more than 30 years.
 
Karmady said:
Here's the new law quoted from Pigpong's post on the general thread:

(a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.

(b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

(c) A person commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

(d) A person commits the offense of murder in the second degree when, in the commission of cruelty to children in the second degree, he or she causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.

(e)(1) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death, by imprisonment for life without parole, or by imprisonment for life.

(2) A person convicted of the offense of murder in the second degree shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than ten nor more than 30 years.
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Thanks Karmady. I still would like to know where Pigpong got this. And I still want to know if this is retroactive to this case. We don't know that yet.
 
As far as I know, Justin Ross Harris is still charged with 16-5-1(c) and not 16-5-1 (d) or 16-5-1(e)(1).

So unless he's charged under the new (d) or (e) (1) statues I would say that the previous statues apply. JMO.
 
RANCH said:
Thanks Karmady. I still would like to know where Pigpong got this. And I still what to know if this is retroactive to this case. We don't know that yet.
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Here are some links:

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20132014/142178.pdf

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20132014/14sumdoc.pdf

From the above link:

Act 577; HB 271
This Act creates the offense of murder in the second degree and provides for cross-references to the
new crime. The Act also changes provisions relating to forms of collateral required for professional
bonding companies and increases the allowable fees for sureties.
The Act amends O.C.G.A. Sections 15-1-16, 15-11-203, 15-11-233, 15-11-560, 16-5-1, 16-11-131,
16-11-133, 16-12-1.1, 17-6-15, 17-6-30, 31-2-9, 31-7-250, 35-3-190, 42-5-85, 42-9-45, and 49-2-14.1.
Effective July 1, 2014.

It's on page 11 of this one:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...014_Legislation.pdf+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
 
RANCH said:
As far as I know, Justin Ross Harris is still charged with 16-5-1(c) and not 16-5-1 (d) or 16-5-1(e)(1).

So unless he's charged under the new (d) or (e) (1) statues I would say that the previous statues apply. JMO.
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Technically, I think that's right. But when they change a law to dramatically decrease the penalty, most countries, and many states, impose the lesser penalty via a saving statute. Georgia does not have a saving statute. The issue has come up there recently in the context of romeo and Juliet laws and the court has found a way not to impose the stiffer penalty that was in effect at the time of the offense. I think there's an EXTREMELY good chance that the same will happen here unless they charge and prove malice. jmo
 
Karmady said:
Technically, I think that's right. But when they change a law to dramatically decrease the penalty, most countries, and many states, impose the lesser penalty via a saving statute. Georgia does not have a saving statute. The issue has come up there recently in the context of romeo and Juliet laws and the court has found a way not to impose the stiffer penalty that was in effect at the time of the offense. I think there's an EXTREMELY good chance that the same will happen here unless they charge and prove malice. jmo
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Thanks. That make sense to me. I bet that the Grand Jury can charge JRH with whatever statute of murder that is applicable. We will see.
 
I think pingpong's source was justia if I remember

if so, note the disclaimer at bottom of paragraph

http://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2006/16/16-5-1.html

I think he was charged under the law prior to it's changed state because the crime was committed in June. I suspect the Grand Jury, if it indicts, will do so under the changes that went into effect on July 1. JMO
 
tlcya said:
because it is more complex than that IMO which is why there is so much debate about these charges.

The murder guilt hinges on the neglect charges. So when we analyse all this, we have to think about what is the burden of proof on the neglect charge. Does he have to be conscious that he is committing a neglectful act? Does he have to be aware he is doing something neglectful that could result in death?

That is where the nitty gritty of the debate goes IMO.

It looks as if there are those who view it like this:

If he genuinely forgot his child was in the car but the mere act of forgetting constitutes that level of neglect then

a) that is basically saying forgetting a child in a car is automatically always 2nd degree neglect, which in the state of GA also means you can be charged with felony murder.

or

b) if awareness is the burden of proof then the individual must be proven to have had that AWARENESS to be proven guilty

Then there are others who seem to feel

If you leave your child in the car, aware or not, forgot or knew, and that child dies, you are straight up guilty of criminal neglect and therefore also guilty of felony murder under the law as written in GA. (no a or b, just one road to travel and all roads lead to guilty - I fall into this school )
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BBM. This is what I have understood those charges to mean all along and why I haven't had a problem with them. The jury wouldn't be asked to decide on the felony murder charge, by finding him guilty on the neglect charge, which I always imagined would involve the prosecution case showing intent, he'd be automatically guilty of the felony murder.
 
Ruby said:
BBM - I tend to agree - seems a bit harsh not to have degrees of murder. I think the reason for the kill should play a factor, and punish accordingly.
But to simplify and put it in its basic form, if you kill you have then murdered. Case closed. Is pretty straight forward.

I'm curious how jury selection will go if the death penalty remains.

my opinion, etc. :moo:
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Karmady said:
the bbm is so, so, so not true. There's all KINDS of killing that isn't murder. Killing in war, the imposition of the death penalty, killing in self defense, etc.
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The part you bolded I added on to include another view point, maybe a more basic way of stating that some people believe killing is wrong, even in times of war, they don't believe in death penalty, and even in self defense, the act of killing is murder and that is wrong. I should of explained myself in more detail, but I was tired and did not want to be long winded (like I usually am). There are people I know who share in this view point, it may not be my exact view, but felt I should include it.

I believe there maybe a valid reason to take such action, as to kill, and it would not be considered murder. Also if one's involved in an accidental death, that too would not be murder.

On another note, thank you for the information that you have added - especially in regards to the new law.
Nothing seems to be simple anymore, everything has to be so complicated, this will be a trial I am probably going to be glued to.

my opinion etc., :moo:
 
RANCH said:
I kind of figured you didn't want to lower them.

I think a lot of people do not know that this is a death penalty case as it stands right now. That's why I posted the Georgia statue showing that.

Some have said that having the death penalty as an option when premeditation is not required is not right.

I agree.
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Well, no...I wouldn't want them lowered. I don't care about him getting the death penalty. If there are charges that keep him in jail the rest of his life, I am happy.
 
Cobb County Grand Jury Info


For Grand Jury:*The Grand Jury consists of twenty-three (23) members and two (2) alternates. *Grand Jurors serve for a two month term. *The Grand Jury generally meets one to two days per week. *Persons ineligible for service on a Grand Jury are elected officials in state or local government or those who have held office within two years preceding service as a Grand Juror.

http://www.cobbcounty.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2201&Itemid=973
 
Karmady said:
Here are some links:

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20132014/142178.pdf

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20132014/14sumdoc.pdf

From the above link:

Act 577; HB 271
This Act creates the offense of murder in the second degree and provides for cross-references to the
new crime. The Act also changes provisions relating to forms of collateral required for professional
bonding companies and increases the allowable fees for sureties.
The Act amends O.C.G.A. Sections 15-1-16, 15-11-203, 15-11-233, 15-11-560, 16-5-1, 16-11-131,
16-11-133, 16-12-1.1, 17-6-15, 17-6-30, 31-2-9, 31-7-250, 35-3-190, 42-5-85, 42-9-45, and 49-2-14.1.
Effective July 1, 2014.

It's on page 11 of this one:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...014_Legislation.pdf+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Click to expand...

Thank you, ma'am. I was driving all day and I only discovered this threads existence this morning or last night... or something.
 
tlcya said:
I think pingpong's source was justia if I remember

if so, note the disclaimer at bottom of paragraph

http://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2006/16/16-5-1.html

I think he was charged under the law prior to it's changed state because the crime was committed in June. I suspect the Grand Jury, if it indicts, will do so under the changes that went into effect on July 1. JMO
Click to expand...

I prefer Lexis, free & up to date. I may have copied and pasted from somewhere else but I posted the 2010 language, not 2006.

And I believe you are correct about the GJ.... If the charge is 2nd degree cruelty. I don't think it will be though. ..

http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/gacode/
 
In some criminal cases, a spouse cannot be compelled to testify against the other. However, in Georgia, if the charges allege wrongdoing involving a minor, a husband or wife can be forced to testify against their spouse.

In Georgia, the child cruelty charge carries a penalty of five to 20 years behind bars. If Ross Harris is convicted of murder, he could get life, life without parole or the death penalty. If a person commits a felony and that act results in the death of someone — whether it’s intended or not — that person can be charged with felony murder.

A murder can qualify for the death penalty in Georgia if it was “outrageously or wantonly vile, horrible, or inhuman in that it involved torture, depravity of mind, or an aggravated battery to the victim,” according to criminal attorney Philip Holloway, who has served as a legal commentator about the case on CNN.

In order to meet that threshold, the evidence will need to demonstrate more than criminal negligence. The current warrant is merely a preliminary charging document. The district attorney can upgrade the charges when the case is presented to the grand jury for indictment, he said.

http://wtvr.com/2014/07/12/whats-next-in-case-of-georgia-father-whose-child-died-in-hot-car/
 
So, was the bond hearing actually right after the probable cause hearing? I ask because July 15 is supposedly the date of the BOND hearing???? Was no bond set UNTIL the bond hearing announced to be July 15??? very confused. HELP!!
 
they held the bond hearing directly after the probable cause portion of the hearing. I believe both hearings were consolidated because the defense wanted to be heard on the bond issue ASAP so the two hearings were combined to address both issues.
 
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