The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 16th June - Trial Day 4

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Sorry it's taken me so long to post following my morning in court. I also shouldn't post using my phone in a bus as I re read my post and it made little sense!

The overflow court room
I have never been in an overflow courtroom before and it was a very interesting experience. The normal courtroom is very serious and full of lots of official people including the judge, barristers, lawyers, bailiffs, security and the families of the parties involved. Not so in the overflow court. It was like movie night without the popcorn! There were 2 big screens set up just in front of the first set of lawyer tables so the room was about half the size. The rest of the room was screened off. The screen on the left was for exhibits such as the map of Brookfield that OW used to describe where she drove searching for Allison. On the right the screen was divided into 4 sections like the brady bunch screen. Top left was a close up of the judge. Top right was a close up of the witness giving evidence. Bottom left was the judges view looking at the prosecution lawyers with GBC sitting behind them in the dock and the public gallery behind. On the right was the defence. The room was packed including about 20 private high school girls. People were sitting on the floor and it was very uncourt like. People were finally allowed to sit in the dock after some time.There were only two court ladies sitting with the video machine thing.


Many in the overflow room reacted to various witnesses, including one lady who yelled out to Olivia on the screen "you are lying!" When Nigel made his now infamous judgement on dark clothes being a manifestation of depression, there were great stirrings in the room with most of the people there commenting on their level of depression based on what they were wearing. Lots of vocal interaction which would not happen in the courtroom. Laughing and a few claps. I kept thinking we are going to get in trouble. I am following the Oscar Pistorius trial and on one day there were lots of outbursts in the overflow room that I think the judge could hear and she had words to them . Lucky today we were on a completely different floor. I have to say there was a hell of a lot more atmosphere in that overflow room than I have ever seen in a courtroom. And a great close up of the witnesses that you normally don't get to see. So if anyone is worried about not getting a seat in the courtroom don't worry, go to the overflow room and get a seat early.

Nigel

He was well spoken with little accent. We were nearly sent into a hypnotic trance with his striped tie from the video feed ( the reason newsreaders wear plain ones). He looked uncomfortable to begin with. He took responsibility for filling in the life insurance claim forms for GBC to sign and for GBC notifying the life insurance company on the day Allison's body was found. His reason this was done was he said due to the terms in the policy that requires immediate notification of an event (death). I found this very interesting because I have collected hundreds and hundreds of life insurances for deceased estates that I have administered. Not one of those was rushed to "comply with the terms of the policy". I would say to clients at a first meeting, let's get the funeral sorted and paid and a death certificate, then we will notify all the companies, banks, share registeries etc. Not once did I ever get a reply from a life insurance company upset that they weren't notified the day of the persons death. Never ever ever.
He also took responsibility for GBC lawyering up the day Allison was reported missing. OW told him that there were police everywhere and Nigel found that very concerning. Me, I would have thought that's amazing, all these wonderful police taking Allison's disappearance so seriously and so quickly. But no he is worried they are suspecting his son has done away with her. He had good reason though given the horrific scratch marks on his face that were weeping for all to see.


Olivia
Confirmed her name as Olivia ? Baden Walton. Can't remember her middle name. She gave a very polished testimony. She appeared calm and was very well spoken, however her constant wringing of her hands showed her underlying feelings. You have heard the reports of her testimony, a very mixed recollection of Allison. She described her as very capable, smart etc on the one hand but then as someone not able to cope with life. She described in great detail that the prosecution just let her go on with, about all the support and help she gave Allison such as caring for Allisons children and teaching her how to cook basic meals etc. She seemed confused throughout her relationship with Allison about why she couldn't cope yet what I found really odd was that she appeared not to try to raise it with Allison and offer to take her to the doctor or get her help. I just couldn't understand this. Sure Allison was a private person but if Olivia really had to do all she said she did for Allison then she had every right and reason to get serious with Allison about the underlying cause of Allison's problems.
I feel the prosecution got all this info about Allison's problems about depression out in the open so it takes the wind out of the defences sails so to speak. When the prosecution on redirect asked Olivia is she had any concerns about Allisons mood in that last week, she thought about her answer carefully and said a clear no, though she then added she could never read Allison! She was certainly pushing the depression agenda. The other agenda that she was pushing was that the birth of Adams baby upset Allison as she wanted a boy. I think the defence are trying to use this as a catalyst as a reason for Allison to kill herself. It's clearly clutching at straws in my opinion.

One tidbit, Olivia's husband was a friend of GBC and he and Olivia met at Allison and GBC's wedding in August 1997.


Mrs Dickie

Oh my, what a lovely lady. Everyone in the overflow room wanted to clap when she finished her testimony and some did, there were some cheers! Beautifully dressed and ready to testify. She was ready after 2 yrs to speak up for her daughter, and that she did, very well. When asked if Allison would have been upset about Adam's son, she exclaimed, of course what mother who has 2 or 3 girls wouldn't. She said she herself was thrilled to have a boy after her 2 girls. So again took the wind out the defences sails so well by being over the top about it and not frightened by admitting Allison would have wanted a boy. But she made it sound like it was no big deal just one of those things. She was very concerned about the state of the house when they arrived as it was so clean and sterile. I don't think she meant that it smelt like bleach or cleaning fluids as she would surely have said that. She said that Allison was clean but the house as one would expect with 3 children was usually a bit untidy. She could not believe how the house looked and was very concerned by it. The defence barrister wasn't happy with her using the word sterile and she had a go at him about well what word would you like me to use. How about very very clean! She was also upset that a round photo was not in its usual place near the entry. It was a photo taken at their wedding of the back of Allison and GBC representing them walking towards their future. A common wedding pic, I have one too.

Mr Dickie

His testimony was fairly short as his wife had done most of the talking to GBC when they arrived so he didn't have a lot to add to what she had said.

Kerry Ann

She was nervous and anxious to help with her testimony. Clearly Allison's best friend, knew about the depression and said Allison had got through it and was fantastic. Did not know Allison had found out about Toni but had asked Allison several times was GBC having an affair as she was suss about him. No doubt Allison was embarrassed that her friend was right all along and didn't want to be told, I told you so. You would think that Olivia and Kerry Ann were describing two completely different people in their evidence about Allison. Clearly Olivia overemphasised the depression and Kerry Ann glossed over it. I only heard the morning session so did not get to hear the defence questioning Kerry Ann.

Toni

Well I wouldn't know because I was on the bus! Bugger.

Brilliant, thanks Ali!
 
I am reposting my now competed post as I wrote it in stages with edits as I was scared it could disappear and it's taken me an hour to write. So those who had already seen some of can now see the finished version.

Thank you Alioop. It's great that you were able to go today of all days. Lordy, you got the trifecta! NBC, OW and TM. What a crew! :floorlaugh: I can't say anything that hasn't already been said today about the BC lot and it's best I don't! :banghead: It's a shame that you missed TM's testimony but there was nothing new really. I did read somewhere today that GBC didn't take his eyes off her the whole time she was on the stand. It's probably in one of the links I posted in the Media thread.

One of the things that made me really sad was Mrs. Dickie's mention of the wedding photo of Allison and GBC walking off to their future and the fact that the photo has disappeared. I wonder if GBC removed it or whether Allison in fact removed it at some stage. There's no future for this marriage.

Seriously I don't know how Allison existed in this toxic environment for so long! Only to be murdered at the hands of the man she loved, and I do believe that she loved him. Why else would she hang in there for so long?

Thanks again Ali.
 
I'm wondering what someone who hasn't been across this case to the detail in here would be thinking? What the jury is thinking?

Does the jury read the statements?
 
Well- that speaks volumes doesn't it?

That is interesting - I am wondering if that is why Allison told her mil about her depression. Perhaps it was to get her off back. Perhaps GBC said "You need to tell her" as her MIL had been saying "why doesn't Allison do this? or "why she doesn't she do that."

They sound like they would have been a hard family to marry into - you would feel like an outsider, no matter how long you were married in to it (I have similar in laws).

I wonder about the new nephew, in that sort of family the birth of "heir" would have been very important. I am wondering if that news didn't play a bigger part in the events of the 19th of April, then we realise
 
I had dismissed the Baden-Walton name mentioned today as a typo/misquote, but there it is again mentioned in Courier Mail.

Has OW changed her name??

Well....the Canadian brother produced an heir but changed his name, GBC fathered girls, so it is left to OBW to continue the family myth. She is her father's daughter......
 
Well....the Canadian brother produced an heir but changed is name, GBC fathered girls, so it is left to OBW to continue the family myth. She is her father's daughter......

Gosh .. lucky she hyphened Baden to her surname then, otherwise nobody would know they were related to a FAMOUS BARON back in the day and then what would happen??
 
I don't think Jurors are allowed access to anything except their own notes written in the book the court supplies but I could be wrong does anyone know for sure about this? certainly true of the case I was a juror on, as well, I find the speculation about OW lying a bit concerning as she is his sister and I would expect her to tell the truth but also support the brother she quite obviously loves and is close to. I have never believed she has anything to do with Allison's death etc.
His parents too have a connection that those of us who have children would know about, one that won't let you believe your child can or could do, such an awful thing.
Having said that I do think NBC knows exactly what happened in as far as his son has told him. Perhaps he told him it was accidental but no one would believe him.
 
That is interesting - I am wondering if that is why Allison told her mil about her depression. Perhaps it was to get her off back. Perhaps GBC said "You need to tell her" as her MIL had been saying "why doesn't Allison do this? or "why she doesn't she do that."

They sound like they would have been a hard family to marry into - you would feel like an outsider, no matter how long you were married in to it (I have similar in laws).

I wonder about the new nephew, in that sort of family the birth of "heir" would have been very important. I am wondering if that news didn't play a bigger part in the events of the 19th of April, then we realise

BBM. Agreed, the person most likely to be impacted by this was GBC as he did not produce the male heir, but his brother did. This would most likely have engendered tensions/rage as we can speculate how important that would be in the BC family. This may have felt like another failure to him as he had been trumped by his brother in producing a male heir. GBC was already under enormous pressure from his failed marriage, failing business and overwhelming financial difficulties at that time. In addition, TM added pressure about the conference the following day. My opinion only.
 
First time poster, thanking you all for your diligent work keeping us updated.

I had wondered if the jury have access to all the statements, which are such a treasure trove of info. It's a shame they're not. It just seems like there is so much stuff the jury don't/won't know!

Love the extra added info, esp about Mrs Dickie.
 
I am reposting my now competed post as I wrote it in stages with edits as I was scared it could disappear and it's taken me an hour to write. So those who had already seen some of can now see the finished version.

Thank you so much, Alioop. Great job on the summary and observations. What a huge day it must have been. Cheers :loveyou:
 
Well....the Canadian brother produced an heir but changed his name, GBC fathered girls, so it is left to OBW to continue the family myth. She is her father's daughter......

Interesting, GBC had no male heirs to carry the name forward. OW most likely changed her/their names to include BADEN, so her son could carry the name forward.
My opinion only.
 
"I did not get married to be a divorcee".


Many wives who put that last ditch effort into a failing marriage.
 
First time poster, thanking you all for your diligent work keeping us updated.

I had wondered if the jury have access to all the statements, which are such a treasure trove of info. It's a shame they're not. It just seems like there is so much stuff the jury don't/won't know!

Love the extra added info, esp about Mrs Dickie.

It is up to the prosecution to present a case to the jury during the trial. The jury can use only the evidence presented during the trial to make a decision. I was once on a jury and we asked the judge for re-direction on some evidence so we trooped back into court and the judge re-read the transcripts of evidence that had already been presented but had been interpreted differently among the jurors. If evidence is not presented by the prosecution it is not used in the trial. If a document/statement is tendered to the court the jury can know it's entire content.

The prosecution has had two years to decide exactly how to present a case based on circumstantial evidence that will leave a jury 'beyond reasonable doubt'. If it happens that they don't know what they're doing then GBC will be proven innocent.

IMHO the prosecution has not even begun to make a case against GBC - none of what has been presented by the first 30 or so witnesses would convince you GBC murdered his wife but it is painting a picture - so far without the finer detail.

Early days yet.

[Fantastic input and insights from the WS community on this case.]
 
First time poster, long time admirer of your sleuthing... I have enjoyed the insights given as to the behaviour and energy at the court. I am so thankful those 3 girls have the Dickies to influence and love them through this. A thought that keeps running through my mind is this ~ apart from the obvious justice the Dickies want for Alison, an equally and almost more pressing need for a guilty verdict for GBC is the girls. If he is released, he undoubtedly will regain custody of his daughters, and what an adjustment that would be for them to settle into life with him again...oh, the horror of it is too much. I am just so pleased Mrs Dickie found the strength to defend her daughter and illustrate so clearly how very 'normal' and loving the Dickie clan are. Such a stark contrast to the horrendous sideshow performance from the BC clan. Hopefully this will remain in the jury's mind as to Alison's inner core and values ~ she would never willingly leave those girls without having spent all her energies trying to recover from the illness that certainly did not claim her life. Her depression sounds like it was mild and being addressed by Alison, and it was more likely her life circumstances that made life more tricky than normal. If, in fact Alison was terribly ill with severe depression, she had the insight and knowledge of the illness to have checked herself into an appropriate facility for treatment. Mrs Dickie showed the jury that she had Alison's back and despite the home situation, Alison never would have felt she was without options. All in my own opinion.
 
I dont see this as Allison not being able to drive! My BIL used to drive my sister and the children to our mums, which was 2 hours away. Mainly because the girls used to get really restless in the car and my sister didnt want to be distracted by driving....

She told the court how she thought it was strange that Allison never drove a car on her own.

"He [Gerard] would drive them down [to the Gold Coast] and leave her and the children with her parents and then would drive back to Brisbane," she said.

"He'd then go back down to the Gold Coast to pick them up - then it became obvious that she couldn't drive."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-16/baden-clay-murder-trial-insurance-forms/5525598
 
First time poster, long time admirer of your sleuthing... I have enjoyed the insights given as to the behaviour and energy at the court. I am so thankful those 3 girls have the Dickies to influence and love them through this. A thought that keeps running through my mind is this ~ apart from the obvious justice the Dickies want for Alison, an equally and almost more pressing need for a guilty verdict for GBC is the girls. If he is released, he undoubtedly will regain custody of his daughters, and what an adjustment that would be for them to settle into life with him again...oh, the horror of it is too much. I am just so pleased Mrs Dickie found the strength to defend her daughter and illustrate so clearly how very 'normal' and loving the Dickie clan are. Such a stark contrast to the horrendous sideshow performance from the BC clan. Hopefully this will remain in the jury's mind as to Alison's inner core and values ~ she would never willingly leave those girls without having spent all her energies trying to recover from the illness that certainly did not claim her life. Her depression sounds like it was mild and being addressed by Alison, and it was more likely her life circumstances that made life more tricky than normal. If, in fact Alison was terribly ill with severe depression, she had the insight and knowledge of the illness to have checked herself into an appropriate facility for treatment. Mrs Dickie showed the jury that she had Alison's back and despite the home situation, Alison never would have felt she was without options. All in my own opinion.

:wagon: cwalk

I agree, the Dickie family is warm and loving, must have come as a shock for Allison the contrast of the BC clan.
The parenting thing really got my goat, not cuddling the littlies to sleep?! :mad:

moo
 
Sorry it's taken me so long to post following my morning in court. I also shouldn't post using my phone in a bus as I re read my post and it made little sense!

The overflow court room
I have never been in an overflow courtroom before and it was a very interesting experience. The normal courtroom is very serious and full of lots of official people including the judge, barristers, lawyers, bailiffs, security and the families of the parties involved. Not so in the overflow court. It was like movie night without the popcorn! There were 2 big screens set up just in front of the first set of lawyer tables so the room was about half the size. The rest of the room was screened off. The screen on the left was for exhibits such as the map of Brookfield that OW used to describe where she drove searching for Allison. On the right the screen was divided into 4 sections like the brady bunch screen. Top left was a close up of the judge. Top right was a close up of the witness giving evidence. Bottom left was the judges view looking at the prosecution lawyers with GBC sitting behind them in the dock and the public gallery behind. On the right was the defence. The room was packed including about 20 private high school girls. People were sitting on the floor and it was very uncourt like. People were finally allowed to sit in the dock after some time.There were only two court ladies sitting with the video machine thing.


Many in the overflow room reacted to various witnesses, including one lady who yelled out to Olivia on the screen "you are lying!" When Nigel made his now infamous judgement on dark clothes being a manifestation of depression, there were great stirrings in the room with most of the people there commenting on their level of depression based on what they were wearing. Lots of vocal interaction which would not happen in the courtroom. Laughing and a few claps. I kept thinking we are going to get in trouble. I am following the Oscar Pistorius trial and on one day there were lots of outbursts in the overflow room that I think the judge could hear and she had words to them . Lucky today we were on a completely different floor. I have to say there was a hell of a lot more atmosphere in that overflow room than I have ever seen in a courtroom. And a great close up of the witnesses that you normally don't get to see. So if anyone is worried about not getting a seat in the courtroom don't worry, go to the overflow room and get a seat early.

Nigel

He was well spoken with little accent. We were nearly sent into a hypnotic trance with his striped tie from the video feed ( the reason newsreaders wear plain ones). He looked uncomfortable to begin with. He took responsibility for filling in the life insurance claim forms for GBC to sign and for GBC notifying the life insurance company on the day Allison's body was found. His reason this was done was he said due to the terms in the policy that requires immediate notification of an event (death). I found this very interesting because I have collected hundreds and hundreds of life insurances for deceased estates that I have administered. Not one of those was rushed to "comply with the terms of the policy". I would say to clients at a first meeting, let's get the funeral sorted and paid and a death certificate, then we will notify all the companies, banks, share registeries etc. Not once did I ever get a reply from a life insurance company upset that they weren't notified the day of the persons death. Never ever ever.
He also took responsibility for GBC lawyering up the day Allison was reported missing. OW told him that there were police everywhere and Nigel found that very concerning. Me, I would have thought that's amazing, all these wonderful police taking Allison's disappearance so seriously and so quickly. But no he is worried they are suspecting his son has done away with her. He had good reason though given the horrific scratch marks on his face that were weeping for all to see.


Olivia
Confirmed her name as Olivia ? Baden Walton. Can't remember her middle name. She gave a very polished testimony. She appeared calm and was very well spoken, however her constant wringing of her hands showed her underlying feelings. You have heard the reports of her testimony, a very mixed recollection of Allison. She described her as very capable, smart etc on the one hand but then as someone not able to cope with life. She described in great detail that the prosecution just let her go on with, about all the support and help she gave Allison such as caring for Allisons children and teaching her how to cook basic meals etc. She seemed confused throughout her relationship with Allison about why she couldn't cope yet what I found really odd was that she appeared not to try to raise it with Allison and offer to take her to the doctor or get her help. I just couldn't understand this. Sure Allison was a private person but if Olivia really had to do all she said she did for Allison then she had every right and reason to get serious with Allison about the underlying cause of Allison's problems.
I feel the prosecution got all this info about Allison's problems about depression out in the open so it takes the wind out of the defences sails so to speak. When the prosecution on redirect asked Olivia is she had any concerns about Allisons mood in that last week, she thought about her answer carefully and said a clear no, though she then added she could never read Allison! She was certainly pushing the depression agenda. The other agenda that she was pushing was that the birth of Adams baby upset Allison as she wanted a boy. I think the defence are trying to use this as a catalyst as a reason for Allison to kill herself. It's clearly clutching at straws in my opinion.

One tidbit, Olivia's husband was a friend of GBC and he and Olivia met at Allison and GBC's wedding in August 1997.


Mrs Dickie

Oh my, what a lovely lady. Everyone in the overflow room wanted to clap when she finished her testimony and some did, there were some cheers! Beautifully dressed and ready to testify. She was ready after 2 yrs to speak up for her daughter, and that she did, very well. When asked if Allison would have been upset about Adam's son, she exclaimed, of course what mother who has 2 or 3 girls wouldn't. She said she herself was thrilled to have a boy after her 2 girls. So again took the wind out the defences sails so well by being over the top about it and not frightened by admitting Allison would have wanted a boy. But she made it sound like it was no big deal just one of those things. She was very concerned about the state of the house when they arrived as it was so clean and sterile. I don't think she meant that it smelt like bleach or cleaning fluids as she would surely have said that. She said that Allison was clean but the house as one would expect with 3 children was usually a bit untidy. She could not believe how the house looked and was very concerned by it. The defence barrister wasn't happy with her using the word sterile and she had a go at him about well what word would you like me to use. How about very very clean! She was also upset that a round photo was not in its usual place near the entry. It was a photo taken at their wedding of the back of Allison and GBC representing them walking towards their future. A common wedding pic, I have one too.

Mr Dickie

His testimony was fairly short as his wife had done most of the talking to GBC when they arrived so he didn't have a lot to add to what she had said.

Kerry Ann

She was nervous and anxious to help with her testimony. Clearly Allison's best friend, knew about the depression and said Allison had got through it and was fantastic. Did not know Allison had found out about Toni but had asked Allison several times was GBC having an affair as she was suss about him. No doubt Allison was embarrassed that her friend was right all along and didn't want to be told, I told you so. You would think that Olivia and Kerry Ann were describing two completely different people in their evidence about Allison. Clearly Olivia overemphasised the depression and Kerry Ann glossed over it. I only heard the morning session so did not get to hear the defence questioning Kerry Ann.

Toni

Well I wouldn't know because I was on the bus! Bugger.

Thank you so much Alioop. Amazing summary. Made me feel that I was actually there.
Your last line gave me a dry smile. Were talking yesterday about Toni being thrown under a bus, and you reckon "you wouldn't know because I was on the bus!" Heh heh!
In fact yesterdays proceedings made me think all the more about Toni and that bus. Very sticky, very fine lines, and very dangerous territory.
 
I dont see this as Allison not being able to drive! My BIL used to drive my sister and the children to our mums, which was 2 hours away. Mainly because the girls used to get really restless in the car and my sister didnt want to be distracted by driving....

She told the court how she thought it was strange that Allison never drove a car on her own.

"He [Gerard] would drive them down [to the Gold Coast] and leave her and the children with her parents and then would drive back to Brisbane," she said.

"He'd then go back down to the Gold Coast to pick them up - then it became obvious that she couldn't drive."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-16/baden-clay-murder-trial-insurance-forms/5525598


I'm here to support you this morning with the tweets, Amee. :D

and most definitely Allison could drive. But I would like to add, even if she couldn't, this doesn't warrant an attack on her mothering or being a good person, which she most definitely was and the BC's got diddly squat trying to prove otherwise. jmo

(I drive everywhere, the car...... and my family up the wall, haha :D)
 
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