The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 2nd July - Trial Day 14, Week 3

[marlywings]

Just woke up ..... Arg ..... What is roux going on about. I have enca up

I'm thinking you perhaps opened the wrong door mate...

Pistorious trial thatta way -------------------->

 

[Consider]

Sorry GBC you lost me by opening your mouth, I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you are a liar and user of people, your opinion and user of women is deplorable. You are a callous, selfish individual, I don't know how you did it and I don't know who helped you, but to deprive you daughters of their mother was a dastardly act. It seems to me you haven;t been honest about one thing in your life, you have reinforced all of the worst stereotypes in your industry. I really do hope that one day your daughters can have some type of relationship with you for there sakes.

You are a cruel, deceitful man. I hope you live a long life in Arthur Gorrie and have many lonely hours to contemplate what you have done. RIP Allison, you no longer have to tolerate a man who main role in life was to belittle and drag you down.

A little off topic but I'm genuinely interested at you wanting the girls to have a relationship with GBC for their sake. It Family Law textbook in Australia but aren't there exception to the rule?

 

[Amee]

Anyone else feel highly emotional after these last few weeks?
I feel all sorts of wrong and uptight. I can only imagine the feelings of the Dickies.
Bring on a guilty verdict.

Yep.

The girls, the Dickies, Allisons friends and of course Allison never far from my thoughts my heartaches for them all

:candle:

 

[volunteer]

Now that the prosecution and defence arguments have concluded, I'm going to put forward a theory that at first most will dismiss but bear with me.

Hypothermia.

Obviously not a common cause of death in QLD, much less in April but nevertheless I feel it is worthy of investigation.

From my admittedly limited research, hypothermia starts to become an issue around 60 degrees Fahrenheit (15.5 degrees Celsius). On the evening of the 19th of April/morning of the 20th the minimum temperature observed at Brisbane airport was 17 degrees however as most Brisbanites know, temperatures are routinely much, much colder in the western suburbs and Ipswich.

Finding detailed climate information for a date more than 2 years ago is difficult outside of the major weather stations but with a little bit of trawling through the bowels of the internet it appears that the minimums in the general vicinity of where Allison's body was found were anywhere between 13-16 degrees that night, with most around the 15 degree mark (there are lots of colder pockets/frost hollows in the area so it's difficult to determine exactly).

15 degrees is going to be chilly but not harmful to a healthy, non elderly person who is suitably dressed, however this is measured at some distance above the ground and Allison was found on the ground.

The terrestrial temperature (the temperature immediately above the ground) is usually measurably cooler than the recorded air temperature. Depending on other variables, primarily wind, the difference can be significant. This is why we see frosts when the air temperature is well above freezing. On a windless night, the terrestrial temperature is routinely 5-8 degrees cooler from my observations. Where it is windy, the difference is usually much smaller, maybe 1-3 degrees.

Allison was found lying/slumped on the ground. Assuming 15 degrees (and it may well have been a couple of degrees cooler at that exact location) with a terrestrial temp of 6 degrees lower (as there was virtually no wind recorded at Amberley during the relevant period), she has now been exposed to single digit temperatures for at least part of the evening/early morning. This slips under the 50 degree Fahrenheit mark which seems to be significant when assessing the risk of hypothermia but again a healthy adult should survive the night, albeit uncomfortably.

However what if Alison's clothing had become wet for some reason? Wet clothing MASSIVELY increases the risk of hypothermia, something that I've personally experienced when climbing in colder climates. Dry clothing, no worry in the world but as soon as your clothing becomes the slightest bit damp, things can get serious very quickly. There were localised showers in the area at the time, she could have been dripping in sweat after running vigorously, there may well have been a dew, she could have collected the moisture as she was brushing through foliage or indeed she could have become soaked if she had jumped or fallen in the water for whatever reason.

9-10 degree temperatures with wet clothing is not a good recipe. I haven't come across any detailed research on this exact scenario, most deal with total immersion of the body in water but a person will generally die within a couple of hours of being in 9 degree water. Although obviously wet clothing isn't quite as serious as total immersion, you can start to understand the seriousness.

On top of this it appears that antidepressants/sedatives and the like can adversely affect the ability of a person to ward off hypothermia.

One of the paradoxical reactions to hypothermia is the compulsion to undress oneself. Often perished mountaineers are found in various stages of undress, could it possibly be that Allison was attempting to remove her jumper for this very reason? Could she have sought the refuge of the bridge in a confused attempt to seek shelter?

A number of suppositions have to be made for this to be a plausible scenario (Allison would have had to have been at ground level for an extended period, either injured or exhausted) but it's something that I would have explored further. And perhaps it was and was debunked early on in the piece, nevertheless it's possible in my opinion, albeit not likely.

But but but HOW didshe GET there?

 

[Cattail]

The same could be said of Max Sica trial. There was nothing to show that he killed the three Singh siblings. There were some footprints but nothing which proved beyond any doubt they belonged to Sica.

Yet he was found guilty.

Hi Marly

I did not follow the Sica trial at all, I don't know anything about that one.

I hope GBC will be found guilty as I believe he is.

I am feeling more positive now than I was at the end of the prosecution case.


I have tried as best I can to see things as the jury might - impossible if not there of course.

I seem to get a lot of disagreement, but don't think it means I don't think he did a despicable thing just because I am trying to look at it fairly rather than just hang him to dry without weighing all of the evidence - it's ok for me to privately believe in his guilt on gut feel but I would not like to live in a country where justice was dealt without evidence or where being guilty of lying is judged as guilty of murder.

 

[Doidy]

BUT according to him the shaver cuts were self-inflicted too!

Great point!!

 

[BJsleuth]

The same could be said of Max Sica trial. There was nothing to show that he killed the three Singh siblings. There were some footprints but nothing which proved beyond any doubt they belonged to Sica.

Yet he was found guilty.

There was far less in the Kerry Whelan case. Her body was never found. Bruce (there's that name again) Burrell was the last person to see her alive. Much evidence wasn't presented as it was deemed prejudicial. He was still convicted.

 

[laserdisc10]

Interesting reading if you have time -

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq29.html

"Still, sex for both types of narcissists is an instrument designed to increase the number of Sources of Narcissistic Supply. If it happens to be the most efficient weapon in the narcissist's arsenal, he makes profligate use of it. In other words: if the narcissist cannot obtain adoration, admiration, approval, applause, or any other kind of attention by other means (e.g., intellectually) – he resorts to sex."

Yep. People have finally worked it out and written about it. Hope it saves some

 

[BJsleuth]

I remember NBC stating he'd read online a body had been found. I also remember locals on WS saying police were out at Kholo & we all wondered why. I might go back & check all that some time but I'm fairly sure it was locals who first stated a body had been found.

So he possibly read it on WS.

I'd bank on it.

 

[JCB]

But but but HOW didshe GET there?

Unfortunately outside of what has already been suggested at trial, I don't know. But it would account for her apparent lack of serious injury (but again there are other possibilities for that as Fuller QC pointed out today!).

 

[BatWoman]

Is it possible that the prosecution can offer a plea deal now before the jury decides. Perhaps offer a reduced sentence?

I seriously doubt that Gerard would agree to a plea deal. He'll still think he's winning. He always wins in his mind. He'll be planning the after party as we speak and making sure he has enough business cards for the judge and jury and all the people who came to support HIM.

:sigh:

 

[Flabbergasted]

I rarely post here but I read everything almost everyday. Like many of you I am consumed with compassion for this woman, and rage that this man may not ever realise how dreadfully wrong his actions were, even if he is found guilty. Here on WS you have asked most of the questions I want answers to. I only have one other question. When he was in his office and he learnt via the internet that a body had been found he called his lawyer. He never indicates that he contacted police to find out HOW his wife died????????? Supposing he can be given the benefit of the doubt for some other 'oversights' but was he not curious even, to learn how she died???????? He says he met police to confirm that it was definitely, not possibly Allison. He makes no comment at all about any other questions he asked of police.

 

[they'll get you]

Are we having a meet and greet? We should have a party after GBC is convicted.

Count me in!

I'll be there dressed in a yellow onesie holding up a party Frankfurt singing
'thar she blows'. :jail:

It'll be a long trip but not as long as GeRed's

 

[spratsmum]

A little off topic but I'm genuinely interested at your wanting the girls to have a relationship with GBC for their sake. It Family Law textbook in Australia but aren't there exception to the rule?[/QUO
I think there will come a time in those young girls lives when they will need and want a relationship with the surviving parent, perhaps to understand him a little, perhaps to relive memories of their early life, perhaps just that bonding that comes with family. The Dickies are elderly and in all probability the girls will left alone again, I think with proper counselling and help on both sides, he should make an effort to help his daughters understand and to find some good in him, otherwise I can imagine their lives will be harder than they have to be. I wish them and their grandparents all my best wishes.

 

[Thinking]

JMO but to me the prosecution case was underwhelming.
Of course they had little to work with.

This trial won't be the end of it but rather just the beginning.
There will be an appeal if GBC is found guilty.
But will the jury be able to reach a unanimous decision?

For this writer, who badly wanted GBC to be nailed, this trial has been the stuff of nightmares.
Allison and her family deserved better than this.

GBC will never be guilty of murder; not in his eyes nor the eyes of his family.

I'm angry if you never guessed already.

I'm pretty sure legal aid won't fund an appeal. Ali?

 

[laserdisc10]

I seriously doubt that Gerard would agree to a plea deal. He'll still think he's winning. He always wins in his mind. He'll be planning the after party as we speak and making sure he has enough business cards for the judge and jury and all the people who came to support HIM.

:sigh:

Don't know. He's weak and he's a rat. Rat's will chew off their own leg to be free. Having weighed the odds, GBC might go for a lesser charge for less time in the clink as opposed to risking a whole lot more time inside

 

[Consider]

That is the thing with the types of people such as "himself"...

They can't control themselves, however they make sure they have total control of everyone around them. He was controlling Allison, TM & who knows how many other women.

Thinking back...I've no doubt the children were de-briefed as a means of controlling them.

He even tried to control the jury & have them believe his charade & lies.

I think that jury will find him guilty far beyond any reasonable doubt.

So true MarlyWings he could not control himself : he had to have control of many others (their bodies, money, etc)

The hand up to the girls to be quiet gets my goat. What else were they in for when they reached an age where speaking their own mind, with their own thoughts and disagreeing and questioning became a natural expression?

If he's put behind bars and they are made to visit him by someone's schedule I hope it's short enough to allow their little minds protection : until they reach whatever age someone decides its OK for them to express themselves and legally have the right to say "Sod off Dad : you're wrong : I may or may not visit you again to listen to your nonsense"

 

[Trooper]

Don't know. He's weak and he's a rat. Rat's will chew off their own leg to be free. Having weighed the odds, GBC might go for a lesser charge for less time in the clink as opposed to risking a whole lot more time inside

I just cant see the State of QLD offering him a lesser charge.. they've gone with these two charges, and that's that..

Gerard could bleat about it, but unless the QLD Prosecution service,, the DPP offers it, he can bleat till kingdom come.

 

[Cattail]

Can Doc or other medical people tell me please if the delay in finding Allison would have masked all of the following signs of smothering?

TIA

"Throughout the investigation of a death by suffocation or smothering the pathologist will look for the tell tale signs: the bloodshot eyes, the high levels of carbon dioxide in the blood and will also look for bruising around the nose and mouth and may even collect trace evidence such as hairs and fibres from around the nose and mouth of the deceased."

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html

 

[Thinking]

So how do they stop the jury from media stuff over the next 4 days?

I wondered about this too - but really the media have just been reporting what the jury have seen anyway - I don't think they have been overly salacious, biased or dramatic - I don't think it would make a big difference.