The Eighth Pair of Underwear

[tumble]

Another thought. Maybe the size 12 pair was an attempt to fool BPD.

Who would put on size 12, can't be the parents, must be someone who didn't know her size!
If this was the case it has worked beautifully, but maybe not as intended.

 

[Jayelles]

UKGuy posted:

Jayelle's has suggested Patsy was framed

Perhaps. I have suggested that the killer was obsessed with Patsy and saw JonBenet as an obstacle to Patsy's affections and attention. One motive for JonBenet's murder could have been to create a scenario where the Ramseys' social standing was smashed to pieces - thus creating an urgent vacancy for a new and loyal friend...

 

[BBB167893]

"So is it possible prior to her death that JonBenet was victim to sexual abuse, which was then covered up with the homicide and stagings?"

To quote my bro, "Hell yes!"

"LinasK you have a strong case."

Maybe. John hasn't gotten away yet.

"All that you say seems to be true, but I have a hunch JR wouldn't know there was a pkg of size 12 day of the week undies in JBR's drawer, or wherever they were kept, UNLESS JBR was so excited when she and her mom returned from the NY shopping trip she may have told him about them, that they'd bought an extra set for her cousin."

That sounds highly possible. But the important question remains: would an intruder know about them and why would he bother?

"Fibers from JR's wool shirt don't prove absolutely that he was there. Let's remember that possibly someone else could have gotten hold of his shirt, so that using it was staging. (If he wasn't personally involved. I don't think he's ever said where his shirt was while he was sleeping, right?)"

You think someone went up to their room and put on his shirt? Then put it back? Sounds a little far-out to me.

"Yes questioning regarding the location of John's shirt, worn to the White's party, has never been covered in any depth, but it would mean going into his bedroom and retrieving his shirt, with the risk he may awaken."

Sounds like I'm not the only one.

"I've thought the same regarding Patsy were her fibers faked? Although not deliberate her fibers may have arrived by chance or as they say, an accident of circumstance. But given the specific features we are discussing the possibilty that both Patsy's AND John's fibers arrived by chance at those particular locations e.g. her genitals, underside of the duct-tape and the garrote knotting is astronomical!"

The police would seem to agree with you, UKGuy.

 

[Eagle1]

Hi
Toltec, the police have the soiled panties in evidence. I can say this because I remember seeing the crime scene photo of the jeans and panties , one inside the other, in the bathroom floor and the panties had a giant skid mark in them. If the police took the picture, they took the jeans and panties. I just cannot believe nobody remembers this crime scene picture. Also, Patsy was shown this picture when being interviewed and she explained that Jonbenet sometimes didn't wipe very well. This whole incident was covered quite extensively in Patys interview. Doesn't anybody remember this?

So the size 6 soiled panties aren't missing after all. How could we all but Trixie forget that? I dunno.

Usually I'm leaning toward intruders, the duffle bag in the crawl space and the almost-useless DNA two of the clues, but I have to admit you're all absolutely right that it's rather unlikely anyone would have gone into the parents' bedroom to get fibers objects with which to frame them. Impossible? Maybe by this time they were actualy no longer in the bedroom, when staging was being done? Maybe they heard the scream or something after all?

If such an intruder was "high" on drugs, he might be that nervy, but then would he be more or less likely to leave more clues? And if PR went to bed wearing her chunky rings, he couldn't get them w/out waking her.

Does anyone remember some "reverse" messages, where someone claimed that whatever JR was recorded saying became "So now we must hate you" played backwards? Not saying I necessarily believe that, unless it was a perversion of "Whoever cometh after me must 'hate'" ....others who'd normally be put first. I forget the exact Biblical quote. Obviously doesn't mean 'hate', literally, since Jesus was love. Just a slight translation error some madman with a religious background might seize upon. If so, he may have mind-controlled the parents with some elaborate heretic doctrine, or some total unbeliever's misunderstand of Christianity, such as that the Psalms meant human sacrifice (???) Yes, "far out", but truth or bits and pieces of it, is sometimes stranger than fiction. We're all just wracking our brains and guessing.

 

[tumble]

So the size 6 soiled panties aren't missing after all.

I think trixie remembers correctly about the panties inside the jeans on the floor but...
the panties JB wore at the Whites may still be unaccounted for. She didn't wear the pants found on the floor at the Whites.
We don't know which panties she wore at the Whites but...
I have asked before, have the 'wednesday' inscribed size 6 panties been accounted for?
JB had a similar set of size 6 day of the week panties as the size 12 one she was found in.

 

[BBB167893]

"So the size 6 soiled panties aren't missing after all. How could we all but Trixie forget that? I dunno."

No, the ones in the pants from the bathroom were found. The pair she supposedly wore to the Whites was never found, IF she wore them at all.

"Usually I'm leaning toward intruders, the duffle bag in the crawl space and the almost-useless DNA two of the clues, but I have to admit you're all absolutely right that it's rather unlikely anyone would have gone into the parents' bedroom to get fibers objects with which to frame them. Impossible?"

Maybe not impossible, but HIGHLY unlikely.

"Maybe by this time they were actualy no longer in the bedroom, when staging was being done? Maybe they heard the scream or something after all?"

"They?" Be more specific, please. We can't be sure their was a scream.

"If such an intruder was 'high' on drugs, he might be that nervy, but then would he be more or less likely to leave more clues?"

More, because he wouldn't be thinking clearly, Eagle1. He'd be reckless.

"And if PR went to bed wearing her chunky rings, he couldn't get them w/out waking her."

That I agree with. Especially since the fingers swell at night. My father couldn't PRY his wedding ring off at night.

"Does anyone remember some 'reverse' messages, where someone claimed that whatever JR was recorded saying became 'So now we must hate you' played backwards?"

That was a book called "JonBenet Knows Evil Love." Never read it.

"Not saying I necessarily believe that, unless it was a perversion of "Whoever cometh after me must 'hate'" ....others who'd normally be put first. I forget the exact Biblical quote. Obviously doesn't mean 'hate', literally, since Jesus was love. Just a slight translation error some madman with a religious background might seize upon. If so, he may have mind-controlled the parents with some elaborate heretic doctrine, or some total unbeliever's misunderstand of Christianity, such as that the Psalms meant human sacrifice (???) Yes, "far out", but truth or bits and pieces of it, is sometimes stranger than fiction. We're all just wracking our brains and guessing."

Sometimes it is. I would say we have hypotheses, not just guesses.

 

[Britt]

No, the ones in the pants from the bathroom were found. The pair she supposedly wore to the Whites was never found

They could very well be the same pair, yes?

Were the bathroom panties ever distinguished from the size 6 Wednesday panties?

 

[tumble]

Were the bathroom panties ever distinguished from the size 6 Wednesday panties?

This thread is hilarious. Print it out and show it to a friend not interested in the case and you sure would get a laugh back

The sad thing is that this information would tell us alot about the case.

I feel we are reaching for straws here. The BPD has the information we need but we can't get hold of it. So we just have to go on reasoning...

So Britt, I would say

If the 'wednesday' panties were infact those found inside the playpants then we have two cases
1. Dressed in size 6 wednesday at the Whites and redressed in playpants in the morning 26th which she soiled.
OR
2. Soiled the size 6 wednesday during the day and changed panties to go to the Whites and these panties wereabouts are unknown.

This issues is further confused by someone talking about black panties found inside the playpants in the bathroom. Are those black panties the infamous 'wednesday size 6 panties'? Someone please confirm or reject...

I must force myself to post this...:banghead:

 

[Toltec]

If JonBenet changed her soiled underwear into the size 12 Wednesday panties than I can say in all certainty that she would also have left skid marks on them. She herself could not have properly wiped herself before changing her panties.

I believe it was Patsy who wiped her down because of the fact that JonBenet's labia were also wiped down. NO MALE....Burke or John, would think to do something like that.....only a female would.

 

[BBB167893]

"They could very well be the same pair, yes?

Were the bathroom panties ever distinguished from the size 6 Wednesday panties?"

I don't know! It's never come up before.

 

[Britt]

The sad thing is that this information would tell us alot about the case.

The devil is in the details.

This issues is further confused by someone talking about black panties found inside the playpants in the bathroom.

Black panties? Huh? She wore black velvet pants (as in slacks, jeans) to the Whites. When did the underwear become black? And if they were, how would "skid marks" be visible in crime scene photos?

Are those black panties the infamous 'wednesday size 6 panties'? Someone please confirm or reject...

Reject.

The Wednesday panties were white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band (quote from the autopsy report). The two sizes were identical.

 

[Britt]

I brought these posts over from the Tea thread:

I keep getting confused about the clothes issue. JB wore the top with the sequined star in which she was found, and black velvet pants. Were those pants found and examined?
And her size six underwear is missing, but there was another pair of JB's soiled underwear found in a pair of jeans on her bedroom (or the bathroom) floor?

I think JB wore black velvet pants to the Whites(same as PR). She had the white top with the sequined star and a black velvet vest.
According to PR she took those pants off and put longjohns on her when they got home from the Whites.

From the 97' interview

[font='Courier New',monospace]PR: He carried her and put her in bed and I got her, you know, pulled off everything and put her, I left the shirt on and put the pants on.[/font]

[font='Courier New',monospace]so basically she says she pulled her panties of also. So they should be found...
she put her to bed in the same shirt she had wore at the Whites.
[/font]
Her playpants which were left on her bathroom floor were some kind of jeans.

"so basically she says she pulled her panties of also. So they should be found..."
I think they were. I think they were the soiled/skidmarked panties attached to the jeans on the bathroom floor.

Patsy, IMO, left out some major info there... like, JB was unconscious when Patsy dressed her in the longjohns, at which time Patsy cleaned her up and replaced the soiled size 6 W panties with the identical size 12 pair.

IMO JB wore the size 6 W undies all day and evening, and wore play pants/jeans in the day, changed to the black velvet pants for the Whites, and changed back into the jeans when she came home, possibly planning to go to bed in them so Patsy wouldn't have to deal with dressing her in the a.m. for their trip.

 

[UKGuy]

I brought these posts over from the Tea thread:


"so basically she says she pulled her panties of also. So they should be found..."
I think they were. I think they were the soiled/skidmarked panties attached to the jeans on the bathroom floor.

Patsy, IMO, left out some major info there... like, JB was unconscious when Patsy dressed her in the longjohns, at which time Patsy cleaned her up and replaced the soiled size 6 W panties with the identical size 12 pair.

IMO JB wore the size 6 W undies all day and evening, and wore play pants/jeans in the day, changed to the black velvet pants for the Whites, and changed back into the jeans when she came home, possibly planning to go to bed in them so Patsy wouldn't have to deal with dressing her in the a.m. for their trip.

Britt,

Possibly, but only if all your ducks line up, and the Wednesday pair matches.

even then Ramnesia strikes.

From the 1998 interviews:

PATSY RAMSEY: "This is JonBenet's floor, her pants."

TOM HANEY: "Do you recall those particular pants, when she would have worn those last?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Not for sure. Probably recently because they are dropped in the middle of the floor, but I don't remember exactly."

TOM HANEY: "They are kind of inside out."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Right."

TOM HANEY: "This is a close up of it. It appears they are stained."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Right."

TOM HANEY: "Is that something JonBenet had a problem with?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Well she, you know, she was at the age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job."

TOM HANEY: "On Christmas day were you in that bathroom at all?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Very likely, but I can't say for sure."

TOM HANEY: "Had you been in there that day, would you have done something with them?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "Well, I got, you know -- that night I got -- I know I got the longjohns for her out of that bathroom."

TOM HANEY: "Right, out of one of the drawers in there."

PATSY RAMSEY: "Yeah."

TOM HANEY: "Do you recall seeing those on the floor that night when you got the -- "

PATSY RAMSEY: "No."

TOM HANEY: "underwear?"

PATSY RAMSEY: "They could have been there. I don't know."

.

 

[Britt]

Ramnesia... exactly, UKGuy. Look how she tries to distance herself from that bathroom and those pants.

And when Haney asks, ...would you have done something with them? she avoids the pants completely and goes straight to the longjohns. Just like the staging -- diverting attention from the pants (the pants JB was wearing when attacked ?) to the longjohns, the pants the stager wanted it to appear JB had been wearing.

 

[LinasK]

I believe it was Patsy who wiped her down because of the fact that JonBenet's labia were also wiped down. NO MALE....Burke or John, would think to do something like that.....only a female would.

Excellent catch!

 

[LinasK]

This issues is further confused by someone talking about black panties found inside the playpants in the bathroom. Are those black panties the infamous 'wednesday size 6 panties'? Someone please confirm or reject...

There are no black panties. We've already discussed that they don't make panties in black for little girls, only in pastel colors. I think you're thinking of the black pants.

 

[tumble]

Thanks LinasK for clearing that out.

And when Haney asks, ...would you have done something with them? she avoids the pants completely and goes straight to the longjohns. Just like the staging -- diverting attention from the pants (the pants JB was wearing when attacked ?) to the longjohns, the pants the stager wanted it to appear JB had been wearing.

And Britt, totally agree with you here. PR is making a great effort to avoid being specific about JB's clothing. Avoiding questions and 'I don't know' all over the place.

 

[rashomon]

Another thought. Maybe the size 12 pair was an attempt to fool BPD.
Who would put on size 12, can't be the parents, must be someone who didn't know her size!
If this was the case it has worked beautifully, but maybe not as intended.

That could have been the parents' intent, or it was like Britt said, that it was important for them to have 'Wednesday' written on JB's panties, to make it appear that the child had been abducted from her bed while still wearing the underwear she had gone to bed with on Christmas night (Wednesday, Dec 25th). And since her size 6 'Wednesday' pair was obviously soiled, Patsy grabbed the size 12 underwear and put it on JB's body.

Patsy is only on record as stating she removed the black velvet pants and replaced those with the white longjohns.

Have the black velvet pants JonBenet wore to the Whites' been found and examined for traces of urine or feces?
For suppose she had a soiling accident some time after eating the pineapple, still wearing her Christmas outfit (White shirt plus black velvet pants) and in wetting and soiling acidents, very often not just the underwear gets dirty, but also the pants.

 

[BBB167893]

The main question is: why would an intruder bother putting them on anyway?

 

[tumble]

The main question is: why would an intruder bother putting them on anyway?

Good quiestion SD. To answer that you must venture into the deep marshes of Wednesdayland.