The Flashlight.....

[Anti-K]

I hardly know where to begin.

Using the word "magically" only shows your opinion, not anything concrete. How long would it take to scoop up some glass? It's not a very big hole. There were a piece or two of glass on the floor - FW even picked up one. You really think that glass had been there for 6 months?

JR wasn't leaving the "intruder" with no point of entry, he was leaving the possibility of an intruder with a key. I will agree that he could have unlocked a door providing a fictional entry point that was believable. Why he chose to leave only the entry by key scenario I don't know (then of course in your further comments you provide other methods of entry) He had to unstage a partially staged window, otherwise it becomes all too obvious that it was a staged rather than real entry point.

May I ask if you believe a millionaire lived with broken window for several months, and let the cold air and snow blow through it, despite it being in the train room where Burke played regularly? I need to also ask whether you actually believe someone came through that basement window. Finally I need to ask if you believe JR took off his suit, and jumped down the window well, put his shoes back on, kicked a hole in the window, shimmied himself through the window, but can't quite remember whether or not he was in his skivies, can't quite remember whether or not he drove his own car (in which case he'd have his garage door opener) or whether he took a cab? Do you think LHP is lying when she says she has no recolection of cleaning up any glass? And do yo blieve the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later? Finally I have to ask why JR seems downplaying the window as entry point when he's talking to the police on the 26th, but later, when LS is on his side he's pushing the window as entry point.

At any rate there are not nearly as many problems with Doc's theory as compared to IDI.



IOWs there really isn't a problem with JR unstaging the window then saying the doors and windows were locked, still plenty of possible entry points.

Re: the flashlight. I'm afraid that it won't much matter if one wants to pretend the flashlight belonged to LE or an intruder. There still, as far as we know, is only one maglite. If LE/Intruder left theirs, then the Rs would be in the drawer where they kept it. The other would be on the counter. We don't know with 100% certainty it was the Rs FL, but we can be highly certain. The Rs admit it could be theirs.

This case isn't about possibilities, it's about probabilities.

All of this is off topic, so if a mod knows of an appropriate thread and if they think necessary, perhaps they could move this post.

Chrishope, sorry but I missed this when you posted it. I’m not sure if I can answer all your questions and points without going into some length. But, I’ll try. Remind me of what I miss, or otherwise don’t address and I WILL reply. I don’t know if I have time to cover everything now.
.

Mr Ramsey had no reason to stage an entry point of any kind. All he had to do was say that there was an unlocked door. It’s effortless, risk free and cannot be disproved, and it is the OBVIOUS thing to do.

But, let’s pretend that he decided to stage a break-in regardless.

There is no evidence to show that the window had been broken the night of the murder or that it had been cleaned up that morning. Docg would be better off to argue that Mr Ramsey chose to stage an entry/exit point at that specific location because he knew the window was already broken. If an intruder was looking for an easy way in, this was it; plus, Mr Ramsey already knew from his own experience that this entry/exit point would work.

Now, all Mr Ramsey has to do is make sure that the window is ajar, scoop out some debris and maybe tear a web or two, maybe reach into the window well with a broom handle and lift the grate and let it fall back down. Because if he was going to stage something at the window it would be that easy and that fast, and, he would do it all at once, not in stages as Docg suggests.
The inventory of evidence seized lists “four pieces of broken window.”

From the Steve Thomas book (emphasis added); p. 37 “Downstairs in the basement, another technician examined the broken window. Three windows, each eighteen-by-twenty-inch rectangles were in a row. The top of the pane in the center window was broken, and the screen was off. The tech noticed PIECES of glass OUTSIDE THE WINDOW and a scuff mark on the wall.”

I think it’s safe to assume that the PIECES listed in the inventory and those that the Technician noticed OUTSIDE THE WINDOW are the same pieces. You can see one of those pieces at 1:57 in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a

This piece is clearly OUTSIDE THE WINDOW and is only one of four, and could not have been placed there by White (or, anyone) unless the window was open because when the window is closed it is flush with the frame so there is no interior ledge (see the dailybeast video).
I’ll address this glass “outside the window” later on (remind me), but for now let’s note that PIECES of glass outside the window contradicts Docg’s version of Mr Ramsey breaking the glass from the outside so that the glass falls to the inside.

This is too long already. And, I’m just starting. But, let me add this:
The police are called at 5:52. They arrive at 5:56. Mr Ramsey would have had to perform the un-staging of his incomplete staging before the first officer arrived. Perhaps this would explain why his un-staging was as incomplete as his staging: insufficient time; but the reality is that some aspects of the (incomplete) staging could not be un-staged (disturbance in window well) and other aspects that could have been, were not (debris from window well on floor).

As I said this is already too long and I haven’t even answered your questions yet! But, I am concerned about how off-topic mods (and others) might think we are. So, I take pause but if there are no complaints – I’ll come back to this later.
But, before I go, I’ll add one more thing (maybe two. )

There were alternative (less obvious) methods of entry that the police MIGHT discover, but staging a break-in demonstrates that Mr Ramsey realized it best to make that entry point obvious (even if we question the proposed methodology: staging window). It then makes no sense for him to remove or limit alternative obvious entry points by telling the police that the doors were locked after doing his (incomplete) un-staging of his (incomplete) staging.
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Shout out to mods and others: should this discussion be moved, or...?
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

PDs use the serial # when they provide equipment to officers, which was the context ST wrote about

Yes, I understand that. I don’t think the flashlight was left there by a BPD officer. I think it was either the Ramsey’s flashlight or the intruder’s flashlight. I don’t know if it was used in the crime. I’m only repeating what Thomas said, that it “made sense” that “some cop brought the heavy flashlight inside...”
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Yes, it is probable that the FL belongs to the Ramseys. There is also a good probability it was used to bash her skull. It's not the only possibility, but it makes a good deal of sense.

As far as Thomas's comments go - this is very easy to check. The investigators know which BPD cops were in the house on the 26th (pretty much the entire dept. it seems) so they simply ask if anyone is missing a FL. Additionally, this is Department issued equipment, so a cop leaving it behind would need to explain what happened to it (he lost it) and requisition a new one. As far as we know, no BDP officer lost a FL. You've got to face it Anti-K, the FL is very likely the R's FL.

I can provisionally accept that the flashlight is the Ramseys, but if the batteries were indeed wiped than I think that it is more likely that the flashlight belonged to the intruder.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

I doubt a cop would have removed the batteries, wiped them down, and put them back in.

I doubt it myself!
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AK

 

[Chrishope]

I can provisionally accept that the flashlight is the Ramseys, but if the batteries were indeed wiped than I think that it is more likely that the flashlight belonged to the intruder.
...

AK

I would agree. IF the batteries were wiped, that's more likely to have been done by an intruder. The problem is we don't really know they were wiped. They didn't yield prints, and many have assumed this is because they were wiped. The RN didn't yield prints either, and the R's admit handling the RN, yet no one supposes the RN was "wiped".

 

[gramcracker]

what if PR staged the break-in?

 

[UKGuy]

what if PR staged the break-in?

gramcracker,Yes quite possible as part of a BDI cleanup and JR reorganizing stuff later on!.

 

[Anti-K]

I hardly know where to begin.

Using the word "magically" only shows your opinion, not anything concrete. How long would it take to scoop up some glass? It's not a very big hole. There were a piece or two of glass on the floor - FW even picked up one. You really think that glass had been there for 6 months?

JR wasn't leaving the "intruder" with no point of entry, he was leaving the possibility of an intruder with a key. I will agree that he could have unlocked a door providing a fictional entry point that was believable. Why he chose to leave only the entry by key scenario I don't know (then of course in your further comments you provide other methods of entry) He had to unstage a partially staged window, otherwise it becomes all too obvious that it was a staged rather than real entry point.

May I ask if you believe a millionaire lived with broken window for several months, and let the cold air and snow blow through it, despite it being in the train room where Burke played regularly? I need to also ask whether you actually believe someone came through that basement window. Finally I need to ask if you believe JR took off his suit, and jumped down the window well, put his shoes back on, kicked a hole in the window, shimmied himself through the window, but can't quite remember whether or not he was in his skivies, can't quite remember whether or not he drove his own car (in which case he'd have his garage door opener) or whether he took a cab? Do you think LHP is lying when she says she has no recolection of cleaning up any glass? And do yo blieve the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later? Finally I have to ask why JR seems downplaying the window as entry point when he's talking to the police on the 26th, but later, when LS is on his side he's pushing the window as entry point.

At any rate there are not nearly as many problems with Doc's theory as compared to IDI.



IOWs there really isn't a problem with JR unstaging the window then saying the doors and windows were locked, still plenty of possible entry points.

Re: the flashlight. I'm afraid that it won't much matter if one wants to pretend the flashlight belonged to LE or an intruder. There still, as far as we know, is only one maglite. If LE/Intruder left theirs, then the Rs would be in the drawer where they kept it. The other would be on the counter. We don't know with 100% certainty it was the Rs FL, but we can be highly certain. The Rs admit it could be theirs.

This case isn't about possibilities, it's about probabilities.

Continuing on...

It is not reasonable to believe that Mrs Ramsey would UNNECESSARILY include a non-conspirator or a non-accomplice in a lie; especially, if she had already cast suspicion on that person! If Mrs Ramsey was lying, then she would not need to mention LHP. She could simply have said, “John broke the window, I cleaned it up, it was never repaired, and no one else knew anything about it.” That would make sense; but, to UNNECESSARILY include a hostile (or, otherwise) non-conspirator or non-accomplice in that lie? That makes no sense.

However, LHP was named a “suspect” by Mrs Ramsey and LHP was subsequently investigated and harassed by media and such. Her life was detrimentally affected and it could be said that she was hurt and felt turned upon. To this day there are people theorizing about her involvement in this crime. So, it could be argued that LHP had motive to dispute Mrs Ramsey’s version of the clean-up. But, I think the truth is closer to this:

Mrs Ramsey doesn’t actually say that she and LHP cleaned up the glass together, and, she doesn’t actually say that she asked LHP to clean up any glass. She doesn’t say, “WE picked up every chunk; WE scoured that place; WE cleaned all that up.” Mrs Ramsey said that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “cleaned [the glass up] thoroughly;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “picked up every chunk;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “scoured that place;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “cleaned all that up;” and then she [Mrs Ramsey] asked LHP “to go behind [Mrs Ramsey] and vacuum.”

Why would Mrs Ramsey clean up the glass if LHP was present? Wouldn’t she just tell LHP to clean it up? So, it’s reasonable to consider that Mrs Ramsey may have cleaned up the glass by herself when LHP was off shift, and then asked LHP to vacuum the area when LHP next came to work. This would mean that LHP did not clean up any glass and that neither LHP nor Mrs Ramsey was lying.
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Go to 1:57 in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a

We see all three windows, with the middle one open. The top half of the window panes are not visible. There is a ceiling beam, or heating duct or something behind which the window is recessed. The hole in the broken window is in the top half. Go to 1:14 and let the video play, keep looking to the top of the screen. See how the top half of the upper window panes are not visible?

This tells us that it would have been possible for people – LHP; the police doing a cursory search, etc – to look into, or be, in that room, without noticing that the window was broken.

According to PMPT, p. 180, the day after thanksgiving LHP “and her daughter started searching for the missing trees. She saw a closed door in the basement just past the boiler room, which she had never noticed before.” PMPT; p. 180

LHP had never noticed that door before. Never. So, I’m not convinced that she would have noticed that broken window (I’m not even convinced that she vacuumed down there - see the floor in the dailybeast video!).

So, LHP may not have known about the broken window and she probably didn’t clean up any glass and no one is lying.
.

Wait; there’s more!
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I hardly know where to begin.

Using the word "magically" only shows your opinion, not anything concrete. How long would it take to scoop up some glass? It's not a very big hole. There were a piece or two of glass on the floor - FW even picked up one. You really think that glass had been there for 6 months?

JR wasn't leaving the "intruder" with no point of entry, he was leaving the possibility of an intruder with a key. I will agree that he could have unlocked a door providing a fictional entry point that was believable. Why he chose to leave only the entry by key scenario I don't know (then of course in your further comments you provide other methods of entry) He had to unstage a partially staged window, otherwise it becomes all too obvious that it was a staged rather than real entry point.

May I ask if you believe a millionaire lived with broken window for several months, and let the cold air and snow blow through it, despite it being in the train room where Burke played regularly? I need to also ask whether you actually believe someone came through that basement window. Finally I need to ask if you believe JR took off his suit, and jumped down the window well, put his shoes back on, kicked a hole in the window, shimmied himself through the window, but can't quite remember whether or not he was in his skivies, can't quite remember whether or not he drove his own car (in which case he'd have his garage door opener) or whether he took a cab? Do you think LHP is lying when she says she has no recolection of cleaning up any glass? And do yo blieve the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later? Finally I have to ask why JR seems downplaying the window as entry point when he's talking to the police on the 26th, but later, when LS is on his side he's pushing the window as entry point.

At any rate there are not nearly as many problems with Doc's theory as compared to IDI.



IOWs there really isn't a problem with JR unstaging the window then saying the doors and windows were locked, still plenty of possible entry points.

Re: the flashlight. I'm afraid that it won't much matter if one wants to pretend the flashlight belonged to LE or an intruder. There still, as far as we know, is only one maglite. If LE/Intruder left theirs, then the Rs would be in the drawer where they kept it. The other would be on the counter. We don't know with 100% certainty it was the Rs FL, but we can be highly certain. The Rs admit it could be theirs.

This case isn't about possibilities, it's about probabilities.

Is it possible that “the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later?”
Yes.

However, there is no reason to believe that LHP cleaned up any of the glass – Mrs Ramsey did that – so, the question should be, is it possible that Mrs Ramsey “did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later?”
Yes.

However, there may be another explanation for the piece of glass that White found on the floor. Remember those four pieces of glass listed in the evidence inventory? The pieces a tech found inside the window well? The piece we see at 1:57 in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a ?

See how the window is broken and there are shards sticking out of the frame?

Now, imagine you’re inside the window well, and you reach in through the already broken window and then downward to unlatch it. When you pull your arm back through the hole your sleeve might catch on a shard, knocking pieces free from the frame. Now, there are pieces of glass inside the window well, just as found by the tech, and during this process a piece of glass could have also have been knocked to the floor, just as found by White.

So, that glass needn’t have been there for six months.
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The window was below ground level and the window well was covered with a grate. The hole in the window was at the top half of it, so I don’t think things were blowing through it. The window was often left ajar because the basement sometimes got too hot, so I don’t think there was much concern about cold air blowing through it. The hole was not clearly visible from inside the basement (see the dailybeast video as noted in above post), and would not have been visible from the outside. Out of sight, out of mind. And, this was not the first time Mr Ramsey had broken that window. Note the condition (cleanliness) of the room and consider that Mr Ramsey did not even bother to clean up the glass!

So, yes, I find it easy to believe that that window had gone unrepaired for an extended period of time. You or I may have repaired it sooner, but that has no relevance here. There simply is no evidence that the window had ever been repaired.
.

Of course, Mr Ramsey could be lying about breaking the window, but why would he tell a ridiculous and/or unbelievable story unless that story was true? Why would he have any difficulty with recollection if he wasn’t actually recollecting but was recounting a story he’d created over a period of months before the questioning?

What I find interesting is that some people find Mr Ramsey’s recollection and depiction of his window entry to be quite reasonable and believable; and, I am not impressed that others do not. That Docg finds the story ridiculous or unbelievable is not evidence.
.

I think I’ve answered all your questions, now. Except, do I think someone came through that window?

I’m not convinced that someone came through that window that night, but I think it is possible that someone came through that window a few, or several days prior to that night. After all, there is evidence of recent disturbance (even Docg acknowledges this!).

Before I go:
Many years ago I conducted an experiment for Docg. I broke a baseball sized-hole piece of glass (in a bowl so it wouldn’t scatter) and wrapped the pieces up in paper towel to see if I could stuff it in my pocket and walk around. I could, but it was awkward and noticeable and risky and now that we’ve actually seen the hole in the dailybeast video I realize that the glass I used (thickness, volume, size of shards, etc) was not representative. No one was going to easily hide this glass.

Let me know if I missed anything.
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AK

 

[Chrishope]

Is it possible that “the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later?”
Yes.

However, there is no reason to believe that LHP cleaned up any of the glass – Mrs Ramsey did that – so, the question should be, is it possible that Mrs Ramsey “did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later?”
Yes.

However, there may be another explanation for the piece of glass that White found on the floor. Remember those four pieces of glass listed in the evidence inventory? The pieces a tech found inside the window well? The piece we see at 1:57 in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a ?

See how the window is broken and there are shards sticking out of the frame?

Now, imagine you’re inside the window well, and you reach in through the already broken window and then downward to unlatch it. When you pull your arm back through the hole your sleeve might catch on a shard, knocking pieces free from the frame. Now, there are pieces of glass inside the window well, just as found by the tech, and during this process a piece of glass could have also have been knocked to the floor, just as found by White.

So, that glass needn’t have been there for six months.
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The window was below ground level and the window well was covered with a grate. The hole in the window was at the top half of it, so I don’t think things were blowing through it. The window was often left ajar because the basement sometimes got too hot, so I don’t think there was much concern about cold air blowing through it. The hole was not clearly visible from inside the basement (see the dailybeast video as noted in above post), and would not have been visible from the outside. Out of sight, out of mind. And, this was not the first time Mr Ramsey had broken that window. Note the condition (cleanliness) of the room and consider that Mr Ramsey did not even bother to clean up the glass!

So, yes, I find it easy to believe that that window had gone unrepaired for an extended period of time. You or I may have repaired it sooner, but that has no relevance here. There simply is no evidence that the window had ever been repaired.
.

Of course, Mr Ramsey could be lying about breaking the window, but why would he tell a ridiculous and/or unbelievable story unless that story was true? Why would he have any difficulty with recollection if he wasn’t actually recollecting but was recounting a story he’d created over a period of months before the questioning?

that others do not. That Docg finds the story ridiculous or unbelievable is not evidence. What I find interesting is that some people find Mr Ramsey’s recollection and depiction of his window entry to be quite reasonable and believable; and, I am not impressed
.

I think I’ve answered all your questions, now. Except, do I think someone came through that window?

I’m not convinced that someone came through that window that night, but I think it is possible that someone came through that window a few, or several days prior to that night. After all, there is evidence of recent disturbance (even Docg acknowledges this!).

Before I go:
Many years ago I conducted an experiment for Docg. I broke a baseball sized-hole piece of glass (in a bowl so it wouldn’t scatter) and wrapped the pieces up in paper towel to see if I could stuff it in my pocket and walk around. I could, but it was awkward and noticeable and risky and now that we’ve actually seen the hole in the dailybeast video I realize that the glass I used (thickness, volume, size of shards, etc) was not representative. No one was going to easily hide this glass.

Let me know if I missed anything.
...

AK

I also find it interesting that some people find his explanation reasonable where others (me) think it's baloney. It's always troubled me that he couldn't remember something as basic as whether or not he drove his own car or took a cab.

This is a common theme throughout this case, what some find reasonable, others find ridiculous. I find it absurd that a kidnapping is staged yet the body is allowed to be found in the house. Others think this is quite reasonable. I'm sure we can find more examples.

You say you think someone came through the window several days before the murder. For what purpose? Who would do that? Do you think it's related to the murder?

 

[Chrishope]

Continuing on...

It is not reasonable to believe that Mrs Ramsey would UNNECESSARILY include a non-conspirator or a non-accomplice in a lie; especially, if she had already cast suspicion on that person! If Mrs Ramsey was lying, then she would not need to mention LHP. She could simply have said, “John broke the window, I cleaned it up, it was never repaired, and no one else knew anything about it.” That would make sense; but, to UNNECESSARILY include a hostile (or, otherwise) non-conspirator or non-accomplice in that lie? That makes no sense.

However, LHP was named a “suspect” by Mrs Ramsey and LHP was subsequently investigated and harassed by media and such. Her life was detrimentally affected and it could be said that she was hurt and felt turned upon. To this day there are people theorizing about her involvement in this crime. So, it could be argued that LHP had motive to dispute Mrs Ramsey’s version of the clean-up. But, I think the truth is closer to this:

Mrs Ramsey doesn’t actually say that she and LHP cleaned up the glass together, and, she doesn’t actually say that she asked LHP to clean up any glass. She doesn’t say, “WE picked up every chunk; WE scoured that place; WE cleaned all that up.” Mrs Ramsey said that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “cleaned [the glass up] thoroughly;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “picked up every chunk;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “scoured that place;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “cleaned all that up;” and then she [Mrs Ramsey] asked LHP “to go behind [Mrs Ramsey] and vacuum.”

Why would Mrs Ramsey clean up the glass if LHP was present? Wouldn’t she just tell LHP to clean it up? So, it’s reasonable to consider that Mrs Ramsey may have cleaned up the glass by herself when LHP was off shift, and then asked LHP to vacuum the area when LHP next came to work. This would mean that LHP did not clean up any glass and that neither LHP nor Mrs Ramsey was lying.
.

Go to 1:57 in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a

We see all three windows, with the middle one open. The top half of the window panes are not visible. There is a ceiling beam, or heating duct or something behind which the window is recessed. The hole in the broken window is in the top half. Go to 1:14 and let the video play, keep looking to the top of the screen. See how the top half of the upper window panes are not visible?

This tells us that it would have been possible for people – LHP; the police doing a cursory search, etc – to look into, or be, in that room, without noticing that the window was broken.

According to PMPT, p. 180, the day after thanksgiving LHP “and her daughter started searching for the missing trees. She saw a closed door in the basement just past the boiler room, which she had never noticed before.” PMPT; p. 180

LHP had never noticed that door before. Never. So, I’m not convinced that she would have noticed that broken window (I’m not even convinced that she vacuumed down there - see the floor in the dailybeast video!).

So, LHP may not have known about the broken window and she probably didn’t clean up any glass and no one is lying.
.

Wait; there’s more!
...

AK

You make a good point. However, LHP still doesn't remember being asked to vacuum, and doesn't seem to know anything about that window being broken months earlier. She could be lying, as you suggest.

PR could have said no one else knew about it, but that's not really possible. That is, no one had to know about JR breaking it, but others would certainly know it had been broken. If it really had been broken during the summer it's been broken 6 months or so by the time of the murder. With that much time, others have certainly been in the basement and seen the window. BR certainly knows, one way or the other. So, very likely, does LHP. So, likely, does JAR.

As far as I can see LHP denies knowing anything about a broken window. With BR and JAR we simply don't know whether they were asked about it, nor what their reply was. It's hard to imagine they were not asked, yet where is their response? Invited guests and workmen were in the basement between summer and Christmas. We know most of them were interviewed, so some of them must have been able to confirm the R's story. Yet, nothing. (As an aside, since workers were doing work in the basement, one might think the Rs would ask them to fix the window)

There is an additional problem that I failed to mention earlier. In his police interviews, JR claims that when he first explored the basement the morning of the 911 call, he found that window (the broken one) slightly ajar. He failed to mention that to the police, on the morning of the 26th. One might suppose that if he believes his daughter has been kidnapped, and the house is full of cops, he might mention a seemingly very relevant bit of information. Instead it's something he "remembers" four months later. That, as much as anything suggests to me he's lying about the window.

 

[UKGuy]

You make a good point. However, LHP still doesn't remember being asked to vacuum, and doesn't seem to know anything about that window being broken months earlier. She could be lying, as you suggest. PR could have said no one else knew about it, but that's not really possible. That is, no one had to know about JR breaking it, but others would certainly know it had been broken. If it really had been broken during the summer it's been broken 6 months or so by the time of the murder. With that much time, others have certainly been in the basement and seen the window. BR certainly knows, one way or the other. So, very likely, does LHP. So, likely, does JAR. As far as I can see LHP denies knowing anything about a broken window. With BR and JAR we simply don't know whether they were asked about it, nor what their reply was. It's hard to imagine they were not asked, yet where is their response? Invited guests and workmen were in the basement between summer and Christmas. We know most of them were interviewed, so some of them must have been able to confirm the R's story. Yet, nothing. (As an aside, since workers were doing work in the basement, one might think the Rs would ask them to fix the window) There is an additional problem that I failed to mention earlier. In his police interviews, JR claims that when he first explored the basement the morning of the 911 call, he found that window (the broken one) slightly ajar. He failed to mention that to the police, on the morning of the 26th. One might suppose that if he believes his daughter has been kidnapped, and the house is full of cops, he might mention a seemingly very relevant bit of information. Instead it's something he "remembers" four months later. That, as much as anything suggests to me he's lying about the window.

Chrishope,You have left out LHP's husband who was in prior to Christmas sorting the basement out. Of course JR is lying through his teeth about the window, he is likely covering for PR's attempt at crime-scene staging. Dont forget the suitcase which he also moved prior to JonBenet's death, not unless PR made it part of a prior staging event?

 

[Anti-K]

Well, not exactly.

I assume you’re referencing Docg’s argument re: the basement window. Here’s one (of a few) problems with it: iirc, Docg has Mr Ramsey do some preliminary window staging, but Mrs Ramsey calls the police before he can finish it. So, he dashes off with minutes to spare, and he un-stages his staging (magically picks up the glass without disturbing any of the other debris, and vanishes it) and then – even though he has now un-staged his staged entry point, essentially leaving the intruder with no means of entry – he tells the police that all the doors were locked!!

Good grief.

Incidentally, there are other ways of entry besides the window or a key. For example, he could have used an electronic device to open the garage door, or enter it via stealth as it is opened for the Ramsey car, and through there into the house (the door between was usually unlocked); he could have entered through an unlocked door and simply locked it behind him when he left (iirc, the front door automatically locked upon closing); he could have bumped a lock; he could ahev entered through the basement window days or weeks ahead of time and prepared an entry in advance....
...

AK

I don’t remember who it was or when or on what forum, but I remember one time someone posted that perhaps Mr Ramsey had decided to take advantage of the wife’s absence and have a few drinks and didn’t want her to find out, and that this could explain the whole window episode and his vague memory of it. I like that.

The only thing I find unusual about Mr Ramsey’s story is that he removed his clothes. Not remembering specific details about the night, or the break-in doesn’t seem strange to me at all. Not even a tiny bit. It seems normal.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that Mr Ramsey was telling the truth, but your rejection of it doesn’t mean that he is lying, either; and, sadly, your rejection – as Docg’s – is an Argument from Personal Incredulity, and therefore has no weight.
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I’m not saying that someone came through that window at an earlier time, but that it is possible that someone came through that window at an earlier time, and, yes, I am referring to the killer. Why would he do that? To, as they say, “case the joint.”
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

You make a good point. However, LHP still doesn't remember being asked to vacuum, and doesn't seem to know anything about that window being broken months earlier. She could be lying, as you suggest.

PR could have said no one else knew about it, but that's not really possible. That is, no one had to know about JR breaking it, but others would certainly know it had been broken. If it really had been broken during the summer it's been broken 6 months or so by the time of the murder. With that much time, others have certainly been in the basement and seen the window. BR certainly knows, one way or the other. So, very likely, does LHP. So, likely, does JAR.

As far as I can see LHP denies knowing anything about a broken window. With BR and JAR we simply don't know whether they were asked about it, nor what their reply was. It's hard to imagine they were not asked, yet where is their response? Invited guests and workmen were in the basement between summer and Christmas. We know most of them were interviewed, so some of them must have been able to confirm the R's story. Yet, nothing. (As an aside, since workers were doing work in the basement, one might think the Rs would ask them to fix the window)

There is an additional problem that I failed to mention earlier. In his police interviews, JR claims that when he first explored the basement the morning of the 911 call, he found that window (the broken one) slightly ajar. He failed to mention that to the police, on the morning of the 26th. One might suppose that if he believes his daughter has been kidnapped, and the house is full of cops, he might mention a seemingly very relevant bit of information. Instead it's something he "remembers" four months later. That, as much as anything suggests to me he's lying about the window.

I’m not suggesting that LHP lied. I’m suggesting that no one lied.
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“When the police asked [LHP] if she’d seen a broken window in the basement or had ever cleaned up broken glass from a broken window, she said she couldn’t recall anything like that.” PMPT; p. 181

She couldn’t recall. But, there is no reason for her to recall something that didn’t happen. Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass.
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In an interview given after her gj appearance LHP said, “I used to clean their house three times a week. If something was broken, Patsy had me clean it up.” And, “If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up.”

This supports my contention that LHP was not working on the day that Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass. If she had been, then Mrs Ramsey would have told LHP to clean it up, and LHP would have cleaned it up. But, she didn’t. Mrs Ramsey did.
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To Mr Ramsey there was nothing unusual or noteworthy about the window being broken and left ajar. It was as expected. I can understand him not saying anything about it, particularly if the police didn’t mention it. Of course, I think he should have mentioned it anyway, but it doesn’t seem odd to me that he didn’t.

That morning, the police don’t seem to have noticed the broken window. They should have noted it in the warrants, and they should have asked the Ramseys about it. It’s an obvious potential point of entry.

But, as I noted in a post above, and as can be seen in the dailybeast video, the hole is not obviously seen. Still, one would hope the police did notice it when they first went down into the basement and perhaps, they did query Mr Ramsey and we simply don’t know about it. But, maybe they didn’t.

It isn’t true that this was all something that Mr Ramsey remembered four months later. He mentioned it to White that very morning. He may have also mentioned it to his investigators, his lawyers, and others long before he ever sat for that interview.
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I don’t believe you when you say that LHP, or JAR, etc would have known about the window being broken. Maybe they would have, or at least one of them, but this isn’t necessarily true.
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AK

 

[DeeDee249]

LHP worked 3 days a week for the Rs, and I suppose she would have come in on extra days if Patsy asked. So she might not have seen the broken glass in the basement.

 

[Tawny]

Why would an intruder wipe fingerprints from a flashlight if he/she were wearing gloves as has been theorized?

 

[Chrishope]

=Anti-K;10794556]I’m not suggesting that LHP lied. I’m suggesting that no one lied.
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“When the police asked [LHP] if she’d seen a broken window in the basement or had ever cleaned up broken glass from a broken window, she said she couldn’t recall anything like that.” PMPT; p. 181

She couldn’t recall. But, there is no reason for her to recall something that didn’t happen. Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass.
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In an interview given after her gj appearance LHP said, “I used to clean their house three times a week. If something was broken, Patsy had me clean it up.” And, “If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up.”

This supports my contention that LHP was not working on the day that Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass. If she had been, then Mrs Ramsey would have told LHP to clean it up, and LHP would have cleaned it up. But, she didn’t. Mrs Ramsey did.
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To Mr Ramsey there was nothing unusual or nt toteworthy aboue window behing broken and left ajar. It was as expected. I can understand him not saying anything about it, particularly if the police didn’t mention it. Of course, I think he should have mentioned it anyway, but it doesn’t seem odd to me that he didn’t.

Oh come on. His daughter has (supposedly) been kidnapped. The window ajar is relevant either because the intruder may have come in that way, or because JR had himself (supposedly) closed it, and so it's not found by police in it's original state. The suitcase being under the window (where it's not usuallly kept) is also relevant, but he also neglects to tell police about that. He notices both things at the same time. Even if there was nothing unusual about the window being ajar, there was, by JR's own admission, something unusual about where the suitcase was placed.

That morning, the police don’t seem to have noticed the broken window. They should have noted it in the warrants, and they should have asked the Ramseys about it. It’s an obvious potential point of entry.

But, as I noted in a post above, and as can be seen in the dailybeast video, the hole is not obviously seen. Still, one would hope the police did notice it when they first went down into the basement and perhaps, they did query Mr Ramsey and we simply don’t know about it. But, maybe they didn’t.

Well, as you said in a prior post, it's funny what some people believe while others find it absurd. That the police didn't notice a broken window is a bit beyond belief for me.

It isn’t true that this was all something that Mr Ramsey remembered four months later. He mentioned it to White that very morning. He may have also mentioned it to his investigators, his lawyers, and others long before he ever sat for that interview.
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No you are conflating two things. Yes he told FW that he'd broken the window, but he didn't tell the police that he'd gone down the basement found the window ajar and closed it. He told police that 4 months later at his first interview. It's only four months later that he remembers the window being ajar and thinks it relevant enough to share at that time.

I don’t believe you when you say that LHP, or JAR, etc would have known about the window being broken. Maybe they would have, or at least one of them, but this isn’t necessarily true.

Once again I'm reminded of your prior post where you said, in effect, it's odd how some people will believe something while others will reject it. Sure it's necessarily true that someone would have seen the broken window. It's (supposedly) been broken for 5 or 6 months by the time of the murder. LHP is in the house 3 days a week. As UKGuy pointed out, LHP's husband was down there before Christmas. BR played with his trains in that room. JAR was home weekends, and weekdays if it suited him as his dorm room was only about a mile from the Ramsey home. Additionally workmen had been down there. There may also have been houseguests down there. If the window was broken, for 6 months, the police would have been able to find at least one person (besides JR/PR) to confirm the story.

It's a pretty good bet that if one confirmation was obtained, it would have appeared in one of the R's books.

With respect, this is just as obvious as the FL belonging to the Rs.

AK[/QUOTE]

 

[Anti-K]

Why would an intruder wipe fingerprints from a flashlight if he/she were wearing gloves as has been theorized?

Presumably, if the flashlight was his, he would have handled the batteries and flashlight without gloves on occasion; before the night of the crime. He would wipe it before leaving for the Ramseys as a precaution – you know, in case something happened to it and it was accidently left at the scene, or could otherwise somehow be connected to the crime.

But, really, I’m skeptical about it having been wiped at all.
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AK

 

[THE BUNK]

Why would an intruder wipe fingerprints from a flashlight if he/she were wearing gloves as has been theorized?

Especially considering he most likely wore gloves to write the Ransom note.

 

[bettybaby00]

(I can't seem to get the quote function, to well function )

Anti-K

It is not reasonable to believe that Mrs Ramsey would UNNECESSARILY include a non-conspirator or a non-accomplice in a lie; especially, if she had already cast suspicion on that person! If Mrs Ramsey was lying, then she would not need to mention LHP. She could simply have said, “John broke the window, I cleaned it up, it was never repaired, and no one else knew anything about it.” That would make sense; but, to UNNECESSARILY include a hostile (or, otherwise) non-conspirator or non-accomplice in that lie? That makes no sense.

The problem with lying is that often the liar feels the need to overly embellish, and furnish way too many extra details.

You argue that...

Mrs Ramsey doesn’t actually say that she and LHP cleaned up the glass together, and, she doesn’t actually say that she asked LHP to clean up any glass. She doesn’t say, “WE picked up every chunk; WE scoured that place; WE cleaned all that up.” Mrs Ramsey said that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “cleaned [the glass up] thoroughly;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “picked up every chunk;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “scoured that place;” that SHE [Mrs Ramsey] “cleaned all that up;” and then she [Mrs Ramsey] asked LHP “to go behind [Mrs Ramsey] and vacuum.”

PR states...

" I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum."​

Why would someone state it in that way unless the person was actually in the room behind them?

If as you suggest PR asked her to vacuum on a subsequent day, why wouldn't she state, "I cleaned it up, I scoured, etc., and when Linda came to work the next day I asked her to vacuum" she could even add "just in case I missed something."

FWIW, most of us would obviously vacuum at the time the glass was "picked up," for the very fact that unless one vacuums there is often small pieces missed.

TT: Okay. Any reason why that one wasn’t replaced or the pane wasn’t fixed or anything?
PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.
TT: Okay.
PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.
TT: To get all the glass.
PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.
TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?
PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.

So much glass everywhere....really? It's not that big of a hole in the window. Based on her description one would think someone took a baseball bat and smashed every window down there!

Such surprising detail, such recollection! and yet.........she has no idea whether or not she ever had the damn thing repaired? How does that work exactly? She goes on to recount the countless people that were in the basement prior to that night...workmen, the kids, herself, LINDA, etc., etc., and no one ever reminded her that maybe she should get it fixed? Patsy never had it on some sort of to do list? According to her she was pretty intimate with all the damage John cause, and recollects in detail how she cleaned it up, but then just went and forgot about it.

No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that

What does that even mean? makes zero sense.