The Grand Jury

[BOESP]

The theory that Steve Thomas put forth is that something (a toileting issue) hacked Patsy off and JonBenet bore the brunt of it. What evidence doesn't support that?

Toileting issues were a major issue in JonBenet's life.

The reason the staging sucks is because you have a mom, it's the middle of the night, it's dark, she has to work by flashlight at times, she hasn't read Mind Hunter, she's working with her daughter, not a doll, and she's working alone.

The staging was said to be overdone and clumsy. Read the above paragraph again and you can see why.

I'd like an answer to the above question in bold too. UKGuy's answer just doesn't do it for me. I think perhaps the person who did read Mindhuter came by afterwards and helped rearrange the staging or maybe not.

 

[BOESP]

There are times I wish I could say more, make a few introductions, however the Patsy lost it theory isnt dead , discarded or considered to be disproved at least not in Boulder.

I don't discount it either and I've never been to Colorado, let alone Boulder.

 

[Ames]

The soiled panties that were seen in a crime scene photo on the floor of JBR's room (or bathroom) were inside a pair of pants, which were also described as soiled. We haven't seen THAT photo, but there is reference to it in PR's interview where LE is showing her that photo and asking her about it. I do not recall if the pants were the black velvet pants she wore to the White's, but if they were, and if PR discovered them solied upon return from Christmas dinner, that would surely be a trigger for the events that followed.

As far as the post-mortem urine release, it is possible that it occured after she was wrapped in the blanket and left in the basement. Though this release occurs right after death at primary flaccidity, JBR may have been THOUGHT dead but not YET dead when she was left there. The stagers may not have known it happened. However I have not seen any mention of the white blanket having urine stains, so this has to be considered when exploring this theory. The autopsy report states the long johns were stained on the ANTERIOR (front) of the legs and crotch, so this means she was lying on her stomach when she voided. However, she was allegedly found on her BACK in the wineceller. If we had only JR as witness to this, it could be suspect, but FW was there too and saw the body in situ in the room. I think if she had been found otherwise, he would have said it, because he did tell LE he had looked in the room earlier and didn't see the body. Now, if JBR had been left dead on her stomach, livor mortis patterns would indicate that, as well as indicating if she'd been moved after death. The livor patterns were non-blanching (fixed) and so from that we can infer she either died on her back or was placed on her back within 30 minutes of death (when livor begins).
Urine STAINED (as the autopsy states) is not the same as urine SOAKED but we have to remember that the autopsy took place the morning of December 27th, well over 24 hours after death and certainly long enough for the garments to dry. When he first arrived to pronounce her dead, the coroner made no comment about the clothes being wet or dry.
As far as the release of the contents of the bowel, this occurs after death only when the fecal matter is ready to be excreted, and then is emptied when the sphincter muscle relaxes at death. In JBR's case, this did not happen, as the soft green fecal matter noted in the autopsy was found in her intestines. This represented whatever she ate at the White's and the previous meals Christmas Day. The pineapple, being the last thing she ate before death, was still in the small intestine and still partially identifiable.

The pants that were found with the soiled panties, were the ones that she wore that day to play in, not the ones that she wore to the White's, and they were found on her bedroom floor.

 

[Ames]

I'd like an answer to the above question in bold too. UKGuy's answer just doesn't do it for me. I think perhaps the person who did read Mindhuter came by afterwards and helped rearrange the staging or maybe not.

I think that the person that read Mindhunter came by afterwards and helped arrange the staging....have you ever read any passages from Mindhunter? I posted some of them on a thread here, a few days ago...and its WAY to much of a coincidence that alot of the book was about staging, and that book was found on John's nightstand....and his daughter was found dead in the basement, and the crime scene had been staged. That is just way too much of a coincidence in my book. I don't know if he referred back to the book, of if he had just recently read it, and he remembered what it said. Regardless....it was HIS book, and it was on HIS nightstand, and it was about STAGING. There is no question in my mind that John was involved in the staging. None at all...

 

[BOESP]

I think that the person that read Mindhunter came by afterwards and helped arrange the staging....have you ever read any passages from Mindhunter? I posted some of them on a thread here, a few days ago...and its WAY to much of a coincidence that alot of the book was about staging, and that book was found on John's nightstand....and his daughter was found dead in the basement, and the crime scene had been staged. That is just way too much of a coincidence in my book. I don't know if he referred back to the book, of if he had just recently read it, and he remembered what it said. Regardless....it was HIS book, and it was on HIS nightstand, and it was about STAGING. There is no question in my mind that John was involved in the staging. None at all...

Yes, I've read Mindhunter.

The problem, as I see it, is there is no way to determine beyond a reasonable doubt which person was responsible for JonBenet's death. I do not think an Intruder did it. I think Steve Thomas presented the most accurate theory and certainly had more access to first-hand facts of the case.

 

[Ames]

Yes, I've read Mindhunter.

The problem, as I see it, is there is no way to determine beyond a reasonable doubt which person was responsible for JonBenet's death. I do not think an Intruder did it. I think Steve Thomas presented the most accurate theory and certainly had more access to first-hand facts of the case.

I agree. I think that Patsy delivered....accidently....the intitial blow to the head. I don't think that it was John that did it. But, I believe that he was in on the staging from the beginning...I think that it was him that carried her to the basement....Patsy was not a very big woman, and I just don't think that she would have had the strength...she had been fighting cancer, and even though she was in remission at the time, I just don't see her as gaining all of her strength back, and enough to carry JB all the way down to the basement, without both of them taking a tumble. THAT and the fact that John's shirt fibers were found on JB's crotch area.

 

[coloradokares]

I don't discount it either and I've never been to Colorado, let alone Boulder.

Well come on out. There is no way to describe the feeling of standing there wanting the house to cry out and give up any secrets it may hold. I remember driving by there as we have friends that live near there we have to drive by to go to their home. I saw Jon Benet just a few times we all knew her from the press shed get regarding the pagents or such and her Dad being the owner Access Graphics and Business man of the year etc. Tragic most tragic. Boulder iitself was outraged and stunned at the handling of the matter. .

 

[Squishified]

Well come on out. There is no way to describe the feeling of standing there wanting the house to cry out and give up any secrets it may hold. I remember driving by there as we have friends that live near there we have to drive by to go to their home. I saw Jon Benet just a few times we all knew her from the press shed get regarding the pagents or such and her Dad being the owner Access Graphics and Business man of the year etc. Tragic most tragic. Boulder iitself was outraged and stunned at the handling of the matter. .

ck,
Since the Karr fiasco, has there been any further investigation to finally solve this case? You'd think they'd want to redeem themselves after the John Karr thing. Curious if you've heard anything public from Mary Lacy and her team.
And thank you for all the information you've given us sleuthers. I have been reading here since the death of Patsy Ramsey (which is when I stumbled across Webslueths) and I have enjoyed all your posts.:blowkiss:

 

[Toltec]

The soiled pants found on the floor inside out belonged to JonBenet. I would assume those are the pants she wore during the day before being told to dress for the trip to the Whites.

According to LHP Patsy and the kids would leave their clothes where they took them off. So JonBenet was getting undressed in her bathroom and like all six-year-olds would place their hand on the bathroom counter and take their pants off using their feet, hence the pants being inside out. I would assume JonBenet, if left to her own devices would put on her black velvet pants without changing her panties. She wears soiled panties to the Whites.

At this point, JonBenet comes out of her bathroom and there is Mommy holding the red turtleneck. She puts it on JonBenet, A defiant JonBenet goes into her bathroom, removes the red turtleneck, balls it up and throws it on the counter. She then proceeds to put her white Gap top and black vest on.

My belief is that Patsy did not know JonBenet had soiled her panties until she took her to the toilet the night of her murder.

 

[coloradokares]

ck,
Since the Karr fiasco, has there been any further investigation to finally solve this case? You'd think they'd want to redeem themselves after the John Karr thing. Curious if you've heard anything public from Mary Lacy and her team.
And thank you for all the information you've given us sleuthers. I have been reading here since the death of Patsy Ramsey (which is when I stumbled across Webslueths) and I have enjoyed all your posts.:blowkiss:

Nothing out of the DA office that I am aware of but the one time interest immediately following the Karr thing that the Department of Homeland Security that seemed to have expressed interest in the release of Karr. I do not waste my time chasing Karr. This is only my opinion but after the anniversary of Jon Benets death we held out hope that our new Governor would do something. To date, this seems at least, on a low priority list. Dont think that Boulder citizens dont care. They claim the case is active. I am sure you would agree the activity on this case is astoundning. Well how do you locate phantom intruders, or for that matter DNA that appears to have been artifact, or unrelated. I hear occasionaly someone parade out that new andvances in DNA have produced more markers but I never see the evidence that is true or that it would change a thing 10 years and not a single hit . I am not holding my breath. I think this is solved not prosecuted. I wish I could say different. I think this case needs a clean sweep, a renewed priority for truth and a new Grand Jury. Id love to see this matter get moved to Denver or anywhere with orders to indict and bring to trial. JMHO

 

[Albert18]

Is it possible the original underwear JonBenet was wearing that night was rinsed out, dried, and put back in a drawer? Wasn't there a washer and a dryer in the basement? Maybe the "intruder" was doing laundry while writing the ransom note.

Is it possible the oversized underwear was purchased for wearing over a pullup/diaper or would they still be too big?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

It's possible the oversized underwear were meant to cover up pull-ups, but according to both Patsy and LHP, JonBenet was only dressed in pull-ups for bed, and there would be no point in covering up a pull-up with cotton unders if all she's doing is sleeping. You know? There's no reason to wear both when she's just going to be in bed - the sheets don't care. Again, according to Patsy and LHP (because imo Patsy alone is not credible), JB didn't use the pull-ups every night anyway, but they were being packed for use on the Disney cruise.

And I still think they'd've been too big to just be a pretty cover over a pull-up - they bagged down to her knees. Not just past her crotch a little, but down to her knees.

Even if they'd been purchased to cover pull-ups, the night JB was killed was the first night she ever wore a pair, and they weren't in her drawers with all of her other pairs of underwear. So who got them to put on her, and where was the rest of the package both before and after that one pair was put on her?

 

[UKGuy]

It's possible the oversized underwear were meant to cover up pull-ups, but according to both Patsy and LHP, JonBenet was only dressed in pull-ups for bed, and there would be no point in covering up a pull-up with cotton unders if all she's doing is sleeping. You know? There's no reason to wear both when she's just going to be in bed - the sheets don't care. Again, according to Patsy and LHP (because imo Patsy alone is not credible), JB didn't use the pull-ups every night anyway, but they were being packed for use on the Disney cruise.

And I still think they'd've been too big to just be a pretty cover over a pull-up - they bagged down to her knees. Not just past her crotch a little, but down to her knees.

Even if they'd been purchased to cover pull-ups, the night JB was killed was the first night she ever wore a pair, and they weren't in her drawers with all of her other pairs of underwear. So who got them to put on her, and where was the rest of the package both before and after that one pair was put on her?

Nuisanceposter,
Possibly more importantly just how does JonBenet being discovered wearing size-12 underwear square with the parents version that she was placed sleeping into bed, wearing the same underwear she wore to the White's?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Is it possible the original underwear JonBenet was wearing that night was rinsed out, dried, and put back in a drawer? Wasn't there a washer and a dryer in the basement? Maybe the "intruder" was doing laundry while writing the ransom note.

Is it possible the oversized underwear was purchased for wearing over a pullup/diaper or would they still be too big?

Albert18,

Is it possible the oversized underwear was purchased for wearing over a pullup/diaper or would they still be too big?

Nope Patsy is on record stating that they were purchased as a gift for a niece, a set of size-6 day-of-the-week underwear was purchased for JonBenet at the same time.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't agree UKGuy since the autopsy does not indicate JonBenet was "soaked" as you say since, in my view, "urine stained" does not necessarily mean "soaked."

I am not a brain surgeon, however, unless Steve Thomas tells me otherwise, I have no reason to believe he's changed his mind about what he said in his book, particularly since his last public statement was he stands by what he said in the book. I don't see what you are seeing (or not seeing) since what is known publicly supports Thomas's theory.

Incidentally, brain surgeons don't necessarily make good detectives.

BOESP,
We shall just have to agree to disagree then.

Urine-stained longjohns and underwear in my estimation add up to a postmortem urine release of some kind.

Why place clean size-12's on JonBenet and ignore the urine-stained longjohns?

If JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to being placed into the wine-cellar why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

When JonBenet was wrapped in those white blankets why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

When JonBenet was wiped down, why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

Why were her size-6 underwear removed, and the flashlight wiped clean?

So a crime-scene was constructed removing evidence of a homicide yet her killer left evidence of the initiating factor on JonBenet in the form of urine-stained longjohns and underwear, and soiled pants upstairs in her bathroom. This is inconsistent with Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory.


.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
We shall just have to agree to disagree then.

Urine-stained longjohns and underwear in my estimation add up to a postmortem urine release of some kind.

Why place clean size-12's on JonBenet and ignore the urine-stained longjohns?

If JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to being placed into the wine-cellar why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

When JonBenet was wrapped in those white blankets why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

When JonBenet was wiped down, why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?



.

As I said, I don't equate the word "stained" as meaning "soaked" and if she was not clinically dead when wiped and when other staging was performed she would not have had postmortem release until she was clinically dead. Being dead and someone else thinking you are dead are two different matters, imo. I thought I explained this but guess I was not clear. We may not agree but it isn't because what I said in th earlier post was not correct. :innocent:

 

[rashomon]

BOESP,
We shall just have to agree to disagree then.

Urine-stained longjohns and underwear in my estimation add up to a postmortem urine release of some kind.

Why place clean size-12's on JonBenet and ignore the urine-stained longjohns?

If JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to being placed into the wine-cellar why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

When JonBenet was wrapped in those white blankets why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

When JonBenet was wiped down, why were her urine-stained longjohns ignored?

Imo the longjohns were put on her together with the oversized Bloomies.

 

[UKGuy]

As I said, I don't equate the word "stained" as meaning "soaked" and if she was not clinically dead when wiped and when other staging was performed she would not have had postmortem release until she was clinically dead. Being dead and someone else thinking you are dead are two different matters, imo. I thought I explained this but guess I was not clear. We may not agree but it isn't because what I said in th earlier post was not correct. :innocent:

BOESP,

Sure, but you fail to address the main issue, why in the context of a Toilet Rage incident, does the killer leave JonBenet wearing urine-stained clothing?

The whole point of the staging was to avoid detection and to deflect attention away from the initial cause.

This was not done, and conflicts with the asumption that a toileting incident was the causal factor.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Imo the longjohns were put on her together with the oversized Bloomies.

rashomon,

You may be correct, particularly if it can be shown that the size-12's were not stained by osmosis?

Given Patsy's explanation regarding JonBenet and the size-12's I suspect it was her that placed them upon her?

Remember that stuff about the blood stains not matching to her underwear?

Was a prior sexual assault being cleaned up here?

.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Sure, but you fail to address the main issue, why in the context of a Toilet Rage incident, does the killer leave JonBenet wearing urine-stained clothing?

The whole point of the staging was to avoid detection and to deflect attention away from the initial cause.

This was not done, and conflicts with the asumption that a toileting incident was the causal factor.


.

I have already answered twice. I agree with Steve Thomas - the evidence as known to the public does not discount a bedwetting rage. The postmortem release is an entirely separate incident, in my opinion. It is likely the killer thought she was dead and she was not. I'm not spending more time explaining something that I think many of the posters here already understand. We'll just agree to disagree. :dance: