The Jury Hangs - Justice Delayed

[borndem]

I've been contemplating this case since the hung jury announcement came down. What can one say when they completely disagree with the jury verdict, whether yea or nay? It's our system and it's the best we can do.

I can't fault the jury if they honestly feel the pros didn't prove JY's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Just because we've watched the case since the get-go, this is how they feel after not knowing anything of Michelles murder except what the def/pros told them. To be honest, I'm glad that they showed the pros they did NOT prove guilt. Now the question is, "Where from here?"

I believe this pros and LE officers involved in the investigation believe that JY is guilty, no question. They MAY feel he had help, but they don't know who it could possibly be. That would be up to JY IF and when he's found guilty, to turn them in, IF it applies.

I think where the pros went wrong is they weren't ready for JY to testify and it's obvious by the timing of his testimony, it was strategicly planned by the def to NOT let the pros have time to cross JY on some important points,because they were unprepared for him to have a different version of the 'circumstances.' Like the lock, the twig, the gas, and I may have left out a few. But, if they retry him, this pros has the rare opportunity of a 'do/over!' They need to use it to their advantage!

Photo's, ie Justthefax did here, lock maintenance and testimony about other locks in the hotel, demonstration how someone could have tampered with the video camera undetected, questioning Gracie about the difference in the height, the contents of his suitcase, he may have miscalculated IF he put gas in the car from the garage BEFORE he left town AFTER the murder, and wasn't there originally a different hotel reservation? I could be mistaken, (I've just seen that since the end of the trial and never before brought up).....even an expert or two on how people react when told their loved one is dead and most specifically murdered. (it's never been stated, IMO I could be wrong, he even KNEW how Michelle died.)

In other words, there are so many ways they can improve their game and maybe even a different prosecutor. But the thought of this guy getting away with this is unthinkable to me. Maybe because I've already decided he's guilty and they just didn't present the evidence properly or thoroughly to show it HAD to be him and there's NO OTHER possibility except he's guilty! (ALLEGEDLY)

I haven't felt this strongly about any other guy I've seen getting away with their crime since the Natalee Holloway case. Just like that one, I said if 'he gets away with this, he'll be back in the news again!' I think we know how that one turned out! Another poor girl lost her life too!

Bet JY's on top of the world right now. Thinking he's going to be set free! :behindbar:

JMHO
fran

PS...oh, and I agree about the 911 call! They need to work on that, for sure. I know when this case first began, that's why so many of us here at Websleuths KNEW JY did it! C was just barely a toddler yet she spoke those words. Babies and toddlers do NOT know how to lie. It was an 'excited utterance,' that provided a window to solving this crime. imo, fran

BBM

All this CE -- and we all know how hard it is to get a jury to understand that you shouldn't (IMO) look at one piece and think, "This isn't enuff." And then look at another piece,and say, "Big deal, not enuff." Repeat, repeat, repeat. "Where's the guy who saw it?" and "Where's the guy to whom he bragged about it?" "This circumstantial stuff ain't diddly," and so forth. The pros needs to construct a better chain of evidence, complete with "the story." But there is indeed on more powerful piece of evidence, as you say, Fran -- and CY does indeed say it twice. Arrrrgggh.

Well, all-righty, then, we've got an eyewitness, and her name is CY."

She was the only survivor besides JY, and he ain't talkin'. Give 'em CY.

 

[tarheel8600]

The words "daddy did it" are obvious.
The problem is they were uttered by a 2 1/2 year old toddler and there is no way to authenticate today....unless CY takes the stand as a 7 year old and can recall that night. Thankfully for her, that tragic memory has apparently vanished.

I would never advocate putting CY on the stand; I agree with you that the memory has vanished, and that is a blessing.

What I would like to hear is her comments enhanced so that we could get a clear understanding of everything she said to MF during that 911 call. If this was done, I think CY's statements could be authenticated if her answers to MF's questions made sense under the circumstances.

CY's statements about her mother being hurt were authentic because she understood that her mommy needed a washcloth, she had boo-boos, and she needed Band-Aids. Maybe her other statements that were inaudible about what happened to her mother could be authenticated if they fit the crime scene.

I was impressed with CY's language skills at 2 1/2 years old. She seemed to be very articulate and aware for her age. I would bet that CY has a relatively high IQ and would have understood more at the time of the crime than many other children in the same age group. I think a child development expert could verify this by showing normal language patterns for a 2 1/2 year old vs. CY's language usage on the 9/11 tape.

I just think CY's statements on that 911 call would reveal some things that could be useful to the prosecution.

 

[tarheel8600]

On a side note, if I could have chosen a prosecutor to cross examine JY, I would have thoroughly enjoyed seeing JY being grilled on the witness stand by the renowned prosecutor, Vincent Bugliosi. During his heyday, he only lost one of 106 felony cases and won 21 out of 21 murder trials. I believe he would have put many hours of preparation into the possibility of JY taking the stand and put forth questions that would have shown him as the arrogant liar many of us believe he is. I think we would have seen the absolute withering of JY on the stand. It would have been a mighty fine show, IMO.

 

[borndem]

I would never advocate putting CY on the stand; I agree with you that the memory has vanished, and that is a blessing.

What I would like to hear is her comments enhanced so that we could get a clear understanding of everything she said to MF during that 911 call. If this was done, I think CY's statements could be authenticated if her answers to MF's questions made sense under the circumstances.

CY's statements about her mother being hurt were authentic because she understood that her mommy needed a washcloth, she had boo-boos, and she needed Band-Aids. Maybe her other statements that were inaudible about what happened to her mother could be authenticated if they fit the crime scene.

I was impressed with CY's language skills at 2 1/2 years old. She seemed to be very articulate and aware for her age. I would bet that CY has a relatively high IQ and would have understood more at the time of the crime than many other children in the same age group. I think a child development expert could verify this by showing normal language patterns for a 2 1/2 year old vs. CY's language usage on the 9/11 tape.

I just think CY's statements on that 911 call would reveal some things that could be useful to the prosecution.

ITA, again(!), Tarheel, with what you just stated.

Let me first say, in addition, that in an earlier post, when I said "Give them CY," I certainly DID NOT mean to put her on the stand -- I meant to, as you so much better stated than I, say let the jury hear the entire 911 call, with or without enhancement, so that her two "Daddy did it" declarations may be heard. The enhancement of the recording could be denied, but I still think that if the recording was loud enough, etc., that at least some of the jurors would certainly hear it at least once. Those who did hear it could point it out to those who did not during deliberations. Grrrrr.

And certainly, that statement has to be one of the big reasons why the Young family whisked her up into the mountains so that she could not be interviewed or evaluated, etc., etc. I'll bet that at least a couple of family members heard it.... And surely JY could hear it since he had heard that sweet little voice so many times. Grrrrr.

My question: Was replaying this recording (for that purpose) ever brought up with the court? Of course the DT would object, and the jury would not be present when this all was discussed.... Did it come up at a pre-trial hearing? I never saw anything on it, but I could have missed it.

Did the State ever ask to play it in its entirety. If not, that is one other thing to add to the "re-trial list." I mean that is, indeed, eye-witness testimony, from the mouth of a child. :banghead:

 

[Just the Fax]

BD, discussion in open court about CY's 911 utterance never happened.
I assume it was an agreement in judges chambers, because it would be highly prejudicial to include in the transcript.

 

[tarheel8600]

ITA, again(!), Tarheel, with what you just stated.

Let me first say, in addition, that in an earlier post, when I said "Give them CY," I certainly DID NOT mean to put her on the stand -- I meant to, as you so much better stated than I, say let the jury hear the entire 911 call, with or without enhancement, so that her two "Daddy did it" declarations may be heard. The enhancement of the recording could be denied, but I still think that if the recording was loud enough, etc., that at least some of the jurors would certainly hear it at least once. Those who did hear it could point it out to those who did not during deliberations. Grrrrr.

And certainly, that statement has to be one of the big reasons why the Young family whisked her up into the mountains so that she could not be interviewed or evaluated, etc., etc. I'll bet that at least a couple of family members heard it.... And surely JY could hear it since he had heard that sweet little voice so many times. Grrrrr.

My question: Was replaying this recording (for that purpose) ever brought up with the court? Of course the DT would object, and the jury would not be present when this all was discussed.... Did it come up at a pre-trial hearing? I never saw anything on it, but I could have missed it.

Did the State ever ask to play it in its entirety. If not, that is one other thing to add to the "re-trial list." I mean that is, indeed, eye-witness testimony, from the mouth of a child. :banghead:

Borndem, when I said that I would not advocate putting CY on the stand, I was not responding to your post but was responding to another poster. Sorry for the confusion.

I do not recall the court being asked for permission to play the entire 911 call including CY's statements saying "Daddy did it," but others on this forum would probably be able to answer that question better than I.

I agree that the entire 911 call (no white noise blocking out certain statements) should be allowed in the second trial. Hearing CY's voice saying that her daddy did it is one of the most chilling things I've ever heard.

I do believe there will be a second trial. It may not come quickly as the DA's office will need time to figure out how to present a stronger case. As far as the enhancement of the 911 call, there have been cases where this has been allowed - many mafia figures have been done in using this technique (unless they paid the jury or judge off :sick.

My question: If the entire 911 call were played in court, couldn't the prosecutors point out the 2 times CY says "Daddy did it," rather than relying on a few members of the jury hearing it and then pointing it out to the other jurors during deliberations that CY said it?

As far as whether or not JY's family has listened the 911 call and heard CY's statements, my answer would be a resounding YES! Remember, they tried to blame the murder on MF because they said she was too calm on the 911 tape. I'm positive that they listened to the 911 call several times to find fault with MF's statements and her response to finding her sister.

I also believe they ignored CY's statements or came up in their minds with an excuse that CY really said something like "Daddy hid it" referring to hiding Band-Aids because young children sometimes like to get into the Band-Aid box and cover themselves with them. I'm just giving an example of how people make up excuses to justify what they want to believe.

On a last note, I'm not sure if all of JY's family is convinced of his innocence. The email exchange with his older sister seemed to show frustration on her part towards him. I wonder if she resents him putting the family in this horrible position.

 

[Just the Fax]

~~~snipped

On a last note, I'm not sure if all of JY's family is convinced of his innocence. The email exchange with his older sister seemed to show frustration on her part towards him. I wonder if she resents him putting the family in this horrible position.

Kim Young was MIA for the entire trial.
JLY said he lost "family, friends and jobs"
Poor guy :boohoo:

 

[tarheel8600]

Does anyone know if JY is granted bond how that is handled in Wake County?
Can someone put up property in another NC county to cover it?

The reason I am asking is because I am assuming his family would be willing to put up their home and land to cover the bond. Home and land values in TC are extremely high.

Being able to cover a $500,000 bond in central NC with property would be much more difficult than covering that amount here in TC.

A 2,000 sq. ft. home on 3-5 acres in central NC would be valued less than a 1,500 sq. ft home on a lot in TC. When I moved here, the price of land and homes shocked the he!! out of me.

 

[No Coincidence]

Thanks for keeping this alive, friends! I haven't had much time to read/write. The 911 call is a very complex piece of evidence for me. CY did not just mumble "daddy did it" out of no where. She responded to MF asking her if anyone was at the house. Suggesting that she said "daddy HID it" about the bandaids would be a long shot, since MF didn't ask about the bandaids. I guess if you compare this to the Chris Porco link that was posted here, you may compare it to the "head nod" by his mother at the scene of the crime when asked if she knew the attacker and if it was her son. Because she (joan purco) couldn't remember the events, it was up to the jury to decide whether that initial nod was indicative or merely "random". As for CY, I feel that the legalities are similar. She can't remember, but there is evidence (audio) so the jury needs to decide if what she said was in fact in regards to who killed her Mommy.

 

[Just the Fax]

Does anyone know if JY is granted bond how that is handled in Wake County?
Can someone put up property in another NC county to cover it?

The reason I am asking is because I am assuming his family would be willing to put up their home and land to cover the bond. Home and land values in TC are extremely high.

Being able to cover a $500,000 bond in central NC with property would be much more difficult than covering that amount here in TC.

A 2,000 sq. ft. home on 3-5 acres in central NC would be valued less than a 1,500 sq. ft home on a lot in TC. When I moved here, the price of land and homes shocked the he!! out of me.

The bail amount will be key.
Judge Stephens has a track record of bonds in the millions for those accused of 1st degree murder....Ann Miller Kontsz $3MM, Brad Cooper $2MM.

Lets say it is $2,000,000. Most bail bondsmen charge a 10% fee for posting the bond. That amount would likely require several different bondsmen, as it is doubtful they can front the entire amount (bond fee -$200,000, non-refundable)

Another option is for Pat Young and his other Brevard enablers to post a property bond. This would be full appraised equity in land or real property pledged to the court to cover the full amount of the bail.

 

[cody100]

Does anyone know if JY is granted bond how that is handled in Wake County?
Can someone put up property in another NC county to cover it?

The reason I am asking is because I am assuming his family would be willing to put up their home and land to cover the bond. Home and land values in TC are extremely high.

Being able to cover a $500,000 bond in central NC with property would be much more difficult than covering that amount here in TC.

A 2,000 sq. ft. home on 3-5 acres in central NC would be valued less than a 1,500 sq. ft home on a lot in TC. When I moved here, the price of land and homes shocked the he!! out of me.

I am sure they can use property for the bond. I was shocked at the land and home values you indicated in TC. US. Census from 2005 to 2009 indicated $45,000 less for the average median value of property in TC as compared to Wake. Medium income was $27K below that in Wake, and percent below poverty was double in TC. Perhaps those figures are incorrect. Orange County's property values are higher than Wake County. Anyway, I hope he has to stay in prison to be honest.

 

[Madeleine74]

For everyone's sake, I hope Judge Stephens sets the bail amount over $2M, and optimally at $3M. Would the Young clan be willing to give up $200K - $300K (i.e. 10%) to secure a bond to get the slayer out for some period of time?

 

[Madeleine74]

On another note, I watched the state's closing arguments in the Casey Anthony trial. The Wake County DA's office should be required to watch Linda Drane Burdick's closing. Further, they should be required to watch LDB's direct and cross examinations to see how a prosecutor digs in on a reluctant witness. She is Florida's version of TX's Kelly Siegler, IMHO. Simply brilliant and fearless.

 

[borndem]

<snippet from Tarheel8600>

Borndem, when I said that I would not advocate putting CY on the stand, I was not responding to your post but was responding to another poster. Sorry for the confusion.
-------------------------------------

Tarheel, I was sure your posting above was not a response to my posting (what a cluster ####!). But it did make me realize that I should have been more clear -- so no worries there. Yours was a good post!

On your other post that mentioned the Master, Bugliosi, ITA!!!! Whew. Tuff Stuff for the Cream Puff CY.

Does the phrase, "chewed him up & spit him out," come to mind??!! :loser::bricks::bigfight:

 

[borndem]

On another note, I watched the state's closing arguments in the Casey Anthony trial. The Wake County DA's office should be required to watch Linda Drane Burdick's closing. Further, they should be required to watch LDB's direct and cross examinations to see how a prosecutor digs in on a reluctant witness. She is Florida's version of TX's Kelly Siegler, IMHO. Simply brilliant and fearless.

Mad74, you all but took the words out of my mouth! I watched it all, too, and I was nearly crying in my cheerios as I heard that mastery from both of those prosecutors -- and I'll bet lotsa loot that those two were ready for poor little ICA to get on the stand -- lies, lies, lies and all. Sliced and diced,that one would be. Just a little grease spot in a puddle of crock-o-dile tears.... (yes, crock, my friends.)

One question posed by Burdick really stuck with me and would also be appropriate in the Young case: She asked, "Who would be better off with little CA dead?" Indeed, folks, indeed.

 

[borndem]

For everyone's sake, I hope Judge Stephens sets the bail amount over $2M, and optimally at $3M. Would the Young clan be willing to give up $200K - $300K (i.e. 10%) to secure a bond to get the slayer out for some period of time?

And unrefundable??? Of course he IS their Precious, isn't he?

And would JS necessarily allow bond?? Would he be more likely to allow bond due to a mistrial?

 

[tarheel8600]

I am sure they can use property for the bond. I was shocked at the land and home values you indicated in TC. US. Census from 2005 to 2009 indicated $45,000 less for the average median value of property in TC as compared to Wake. Medium income was $27K below that in Wake, and percent below poverty was double in TC. Perhaps those figures are incorrect. Orange County's property values are higher than Wake County. Anyway, I hope he has to stay in prison to be honest.

When I moved up here, my husband already owned a house, but we looked around at other houses that were larger than ours - nothing huge - just houses in the 2,000 sq. ft. range. When I saw the listing prices of the houses, which were usually on lots or included less than an acre of land, I couldn't believe it. I remember one 18-year-old bare-bones doublewide listing with less than a 1/3 acre of land that was priced at $180,000.

The land values up here do not reflect the salaries of the people who live here since the Ecusta and Dupont plants closed down. That is probably the reason that TC has had a declining population for the last ten years, and many houses that have been on the market for long periods of time are still sitting unsold.

To answer another poster, I do not believe that JY's parents' property and home would be valued enough to cover a 2 or 3 million dollar bond. As to whether or not they could front 2 or 3 hundred thousand nonrefundable dollars to bail JY out, I don't know for sure, but I would seriously doubt it. I cannot even imagine asking my elderly parents to do such a thing - especially since she is a retired school teacher and he is retired from the Ecusta mill.

 

[cody100]

When I moved up here, my husband already owned a house, but we looked around at other houses that were larger than ours - nothing huge - just houses in the 2,000 sq. ft. range. When I saw the listing prices of the houses, which were usually on lots or included less than an acre of land, I couldn't believe it. I remember one 18-year-old bare-bones doublewide listing with less than a 1/3 acre of land that was priced at $180,000.

The land values up here do not reflect the salaries of the people who live here since the Ecusta and Dupont plants closed down. That is probably the reason that TC has had a declining population for the last ten years, and many houses that have been on the market for long periods of time are still sitting unsold.

To answer another poster, I do not believe that JY's parents' property and home would be valued enough to cover a 2 or 3 million dollar bond. As to whether or not they could front 2 or 3 hundred thousand nonrefundable dollars to bail JY out, I don't know for sure, but I would seriously doubt it. I cannot even imagine asking my elderly parents to do such a thing - especially since she is a retired school teacher and he is retired from the Ecusta mill.

Sorry about the decline in houses selling. I am sure that is why the property values may have dropped. In any case, I am delighted to hear that they can not likely cover his bail. 2 to 3 hundred thousand nonrefundable dollars is a lot of money for his family to lose. That is good news for everyone, especially to MF's family and to those in TC that do not want him back there.

 

[tarheel8600]

Another side note, I went to the fireworks in Brevard tonight and sat beside a lady who grew up in TC. I know this lady just as a casual acquaintance and had never discussed the case with her before.

While waiting for the fireworks to begin, I asked her if she had she heard of the JY case. She said yes and that she had followed the case. I asked her what she thought of the hung jury, and she said she was surprised that they didn't find him guilty. She said to me, "That man's guilty as sin."

I asked her what convinced her of his guilt. She said the one keycard entry into the hotel room, the missing shirt, the security camera being unplugged, the exit door propped open, and the fact that when he lived up here before his arrest, his behavior was not that of a grieving widower, but that of a free-wheeling bachelor."

I assured her that I agreed with her and asked her if she had listened to the 911 call where CY says twice, "Daddy did it." She was unaware of this, but I gave her the information where she could access this. She was very interested in this piece of information.

The more people I talk to about this, the more I hear, "Guilty, guilty, guilty." Hopefully, JY will get what he deserves eventually, and hopefully members of the "JY is Innocent" faction won't come after me for having an opinion that differs significantly from them. I know that I am putting myself in a precarious position talking to members of the community, but if it were my family member, I would want people to support me and more importantly, support justice.

Also, some people I have spoken with are very suspicious of the car accident that occurred up here when JY was driving. Many believe that may have been his first attempt to murder MY.

 

[No Coincidence]

I've never been more thankful for a hung jury as when I heard that clerk say that Casey Anthony was not guilty... What a sad day.

Justice for MY, better a re-do than nothing...