The Kratz book

[dexter75]

Who does KK think he is fooling with outrageous lies that anyone can fact check and learn are completely false claims?

The sexual abuse predates the Avery trial and the drug abuse he admits begins as early as the Avery trial.

I suppose there are still folks gullible enough to fall for his chicanery, and KK probably relishes the power to fool them.

Just MOO

There are many in the world who are falling for his version of events every time he speaks, or puts it in writing obviously😀
JMO

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[proudfootz]

There are many in the world who are falling for his version of events every time he speaks, or puts it in writing obviously
JMO

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When he manipulates his audience on this press blitz, I can't help but think that he gets the same sort of thrill he got when manipulating abused women into situations where he could rape them.

MOO

 

[dexter75]

Who does KK think he is fooling with outrageous lies that anyone can fact check and learn are completely false claims?

The sexual abuse predates the Avery trial and the drug abuse he admits begins as early as the Avery trial.

I suppose there are still folks gullible enough to fall for his chicanery, and KK probably relishes the power to fool them.

Just MOO

Yea, well, I was in the " forbidden " thread and all the Kratz facts are listed.
Seems they're a bit " off " from these..
SURPRISE!😀

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[dexter75]

When he manipulates his audience on this press blitz, I can't help but think that he gets the same sort of thrill he got when manipulating abused women into situations where he could rape them.

MOO

Omg I bet he does!
Eeeew

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[Saul Vesalot]

Is anyone aware of a "first" making a murderer movie presented at Columbia Festival? KK makes a big deal about this and that you can't find it anywhere now. I tried googling it but couldn't find it. I am curious as he makes it sound like the first movie was more accurate.

Have not found anything about MaM at the Columbia film festival

However, I did find that the makers of MaM are graduates of Columbia University, which hosts the festival.

Columbia University’s School of the Arts Film Program is one of the most prestigious programs in the country and boasts a graduate list that includes Moira Demos and Laura Ricciardi (Making a Murderer), Jennifer Lee (Zootopia, Frozen, Wreck-It Ralph), Simon Kinberg ‘03 (The Martian, Sherlock Holmes), Kathryn Bigelow (The Hurt Locker, Zero Dark Thirty), Nicole Holofcener (Enough Said), Ron Nyswaner (Philadelphia, Homeland), and Lisa Cholodenko (Olive Kitteridge, The Kids Are All Right) and an esteemed faculty that has included Tom Kalin, Mira Nair, Ramin Bahrani, Ira Sachs and Bette Gordon.

http://arts.columbia.edu/film/news/2016/CUFF

And that MaM premiered at the DOCNYC Festival

WORLD PREMIERE Netflix presents an exclusive preview of a captivating documentary crime series. Filmed over a ten-year period, Making a Murderer is an unprecedented real-life thriller about a DNA exoneree who, while in the midst of exposing corruption in local law enforcement, finds himself the prime suspect in a grisly new crime. Set in America’s heartland, the series takes viewers inside a high-stakes criminal case where reputation is everything and things are never as they appear. DOC NYC will screen the first two episodes of this ten-part series. — Thom Powers

http://www.docnyc.net/film/making-a-murderer/
But that was just the first 2 episodes which everyone else saw. Maybe Kratz is mixing up memories of these facts?

 

[CoolJ]

Ever since this Kratz fairy tale book came out there sure has been a lot made up stories being told and passed off as fact. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Who does KK think he is fooling with outrageous lies that anyone can fact check and learn are completely false claims?

The sexual abuse predates the Avery trial and the drug abuse he admits begins as early as the Avery trial.

I suppose there are still folks gullible enough to fall for his chicanery, and KK probably relishes the power to fool them.

Just MOO

BBM

That is the biggest problem IMO There are people that are capable of doing it, but I guess turning a blind eye to the facts doesn't really suit their agenda. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Is anyone aware of a "first" making a murderer movie presented at Columbia Festival? KK makes a big deal about this and that you can't find it anywhere now. I tried googling it but couldn't find it. I am curious as he makes it sound like the first movie was more accurate.

Hi Bethlamb16! I think you posted the other day too about this? I looked then, and I couldn't find anything more than what Saul has found. I do recall that there was something that they showed, somewhere, but I just can't remember where I read it and I believe it was early on when I started following. It's so hard to google and find their names not attached to Making a Murderer or the aftermath. I will keep looking and will post if I find something

 

[missy1974]

Here's another alternative fact....

Zellner promised back in January 2016 that she would have evidence or SA free in 30 days.


Here is a tweet from Zellner last week (thanks to proudfootz handy dandy link in the tweet thread)...

February 23, 2017
KK quote: "KZ promised to id the real killer w/in 30 days." Never said, never so reckless-leave that to those we sue. #MakingAMurderer


I have looked back at her tweets, I don't see anything, not even from deleted one's, so I'm not sure where KK is getting this from. As for the 30 days, that would be pretty amazing considering these cases usually take years. jmo

 

[proudfootz]

Have not found anything about MaM at the Columbia film festival

However, I did find that the makers of MaM are graduates of Columbia University, which hosts the festival.

http://arts.columbia.edu/film/news/2016/CUFF

And that MaM premiered at the DOCNYC Festival

http://www.docnyc.net/film/making-a-murderer/
But that was just the first 2 episodes which everyone else saw. Maybe Kratz is mixing up memories of these facts?

It's possible that another cut could have been shown somewhere - but when the biggest critique is that it didn't include more material ('look at all the stuff left out!') that would make it even longer than the 10 episodes aired on Netflix. Would an audience be likely to sit through that at a festival?

 

[Saul Vesalot]

It's possible that another cut could have been shown somewhere - but when the biggest critique is that it didn't include more material ('look at all the stuff left out!') that would make it even longer than the 10 episodes aired on Netflix. Would an audience be likely to sit through that at a festival?

Absolutely not. Plus a festival devote that much time to one project by people who were nobodies? No.
And like I said before, Kratz was not at the film festival, I am 99% certain of that, so his ability to gauge accuracy is non-existent.


Unless someone can pony up an actual source, this just goes into the category of Kratz's lies.

 

[Safeguard]

What I find perhaps the most interesting, amusing thing about this whole topic, is how those who hold MaM in contempt, citing inaccuracies, bias,and outright lies, are salivating over a book, full of...inaccuracies, bias ,and outright lies!

They seem to view it, as "setting the record straight" about MaM, when MaM got it right! (as has been born out in the actual records, time and time again!!) The producers had no dog in the fight. Sure they wanted to highlight injustices in the system, and they showed us those from the perspective of their chosen subjects, but they never made a case for guilt or innocence of SA himself. You cannot say THAT about Kratz!).

One thing that has always bothered me greatly about this sub, the Making a Murderer forum, is watching people deny that MaM had anything to do with their belief that SA & BD were railroaded by MCSO and are in fact innocent. "I did not JUST watch MaM", I NEVER even watched MaM", "I watched MaM A LONG TIME ago, and barely remember it", I am going by CASE FILES and NOT MaM" and on and on...

I feel like this does a disservice to the producers, who did a damn fine, job, and almost seems to validates the claims of those who hold MaM in contempt. No one wants to cop to making up their minds, from information they got by watching MaM, but I'll tell you what that's exactly what Zellner DID, and she said as much! And that's what a lot of us did... and guess what?

There IS no real measurable difference in how I feel about this case, after all the research and effort, pertaining to the actual case file participating/reading here, on Reddit, and in all the far corners of the internet...I know a hell of a lot more about this case, the players, (and about a plethora of different issues, more than I wanted to about some things! Ha!), but I feel largely the same,emotionally as I did right after watching MaM. I thought they were framed then, and I still believe it now.

My hat is off to the producers. MaM was riveting. I think everyone should watch it. It will have a powerful effect on any intelligent person, who has a human soul, and cares at all, about our fellow travelers in this life! BUT... There is no brainwashing involved. I've seen enough documentaries to know that they all have a point of view, but this one was far and away more impartial than any I have ever seen. (I'm looking at you OBE! )

 

[proudfootz]

The documentary made me aware of this case, but I haven't watched it a second time. It is too heartbreaking.

When speaking about the case I rely on resources outside of the film.

 

[Safeguard]

The documentary made me aware of this case, but I haven't watched it a second time. It is too heartbreaking.

When speaking about the case I rely on resources outside of the film.

It's true. I watched a second time and I had to skip parts, pertaining to Brendan, in particular.

I think there's no getting around needing to cite resources from other material., It would be incredibly difficult to keep uploading sections of the Doc., just easier to grab a case file url and stuff. Not to mention there's so much available that just translates better.

But I want to stick up for the Doc. It's a great look at the inequities involved in the CJS. and it get's such a bad rap, that people seem to not even want to be associated with it. But it's the reason these guys will get some measure of their lives back.

SA is old now, whatever opportunities he had to develop as a human being, are not gonna happen now, but Brendan could still enjoy a better life. No doubt he's institutionalized to some ( probably a lot!), degree, and will be uncomfortable learning to self-direct, (if he even can, some people never do well), but he has a better shot than he did before MaM!

 

[proudfootz]

I quite agree that the documentary did a fine job of bringing this sort of injustice to the forefront. In that it is invaluable.

It could have conceivable been even better had the family and even the prosecution decided to accept the invitation to participate. But the film makers couldn't force anyone to be a part of the documentary. Those people who turned down the opportunity now complain that their POV wasn't presented more forcefully have only themselves to blame.

To be honest I did not feel 100% persuaded of Steven's innocence based on watching the documentary. So when critics go on about how I've been 'brainwashed' into believing as I do by the film, I know they are just wrong. I have to point out how Steven's lawyers didn't talk about Steven being innocent, and how the film makers have to remind the critics that the film isn't about Steven's guilt or innocence, but about the process itself.

 

[missy1974]

Thanks for the reminder Safeguard that the documentary had a huge impact and started this discussion for most of us! During and after watching it... I just wanted more information! I did only watch it once, and I guess I should watch it again, I'm somewhat curious to see how I would feel about it now.

There are still some things that are only available in the documentary, like some of the clips of depositions, some clips from SA's police interviews and of course we get the behind the scene's look at the defense team.

Has anyone read any discussion about Buting's book? I think it was released today, might have to go looking for it, apparently it's a good overview of the justice system, and is not focused only on the Avery case. He also talks about his own career, his wife, his battle with cancer. I might have to go and see if I can find it, I could use a good book ;-)

 

[Safeguard]

Yes. it's true. I would have liked interviews, from many of the people we don't see a lot of the Doc, but figure prominently in the case. Shame they declined to participate... And many people have accused the film makers of deliberately not showing their side.

That was one reason I did think SA was most likely not guilty, after watching. He seemed to be the only one that was an open book! Wouldn't you think the guilty parties, would be the ones not wanting anyone to see into their lives in such intimate detail?

The very fact that I could look at the faces and body language of key players, gave me the perspective that I couldn't have found in files.

For instance Sandra, just reading her testimony, I might have been inclined to be sympathetic, but I found her absolutely repulsive on the stand. She was the very epitome of a "rode-hard and put away wet" barfly. The kind of small, petty gossip monger, with her nose in the air, proudly declaring that she patronizes several bars and drives under the influence with complete immunity.

I have seen her type before, they don't fare as well around here. Cops wife, or not.Boston is definitely not Manitowoc! Hahaha!
This was a game to her. She put the whole thing in play, and then cried "victim". I beg to differ.

There are others, too, that you need to see, or you miss the glaring, "what the hell is up, with that person?". Ryan H comes immediately to mind. His testimony was some of the most unnerving footage in the film...(Not a fan.)

** I am going to purchase butings book! I practically live at Barnes & Nobel's. My girl is very obsessed percy Jackson fan, as well as Warrior Cats , and of course...Harry potter!

 

[CoolJ]

The reason I feel that the documentary seems one sided is because this case is one sided. The truth is one sided. Kratz and company tell us that the producers ommited key evidence, but when they explain this "evidence" we find out its really not evidence at all, just made up stories, hearsay and assumptions.

JMO

 

[missy1974]

The reason I feel that the documentary seems one sided is because this case is one sided. The truth is one sided. Kratz and company tell us that the producers ommited key evidence, but when they explain this "evidence" we find out its really not evidence at all, just made up stories, hearsay and assumptions.

JMO

I agree CoolJ.

Just curious CoolJ... why do you think Kratz is out there now spewing all this stuff? Anyone else can answer too lol But I'm sitting here thinking... is it all about book sales? Is he that narcissistic, that he doesn't want his "win" to be reversed, and it's about trying to take back control of the narrative? Which I don't think is working from what I am reading elsewhere JMO Most are quite sceptical about KK's motives and credibility, I know I am, but that's JMO

The letter that Kratz included in his book from SA makes me laugh.... I would love to see all the letters between the 2. It seemed pretty clear that Kratz was looking to write a book long before MaM came out, and SA seemed to still be professing his innocence, so I'm not sure why he thought the letter he included made SA look guilty?

 

[missy1974]

oh and something else I have been thinking about.... Kratz hasn't been working for the State for many years. Through the FOIA, some documents and photo's, etc. SkippTopp was denied access too. How would Kratz get a hold of those? Can he keep copies when he is no longer working for the State? Just an example is the photo of Brendan's jeans that his girlfriend shared on twitter awhile back (which I believe she deleted when someone asked about it, but I'm not sure lol)

Anyway, I'm just wondering, maybe someone knows the answer TIA if you do!

All JMO