The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[UKGuy]

Because this was Christmas night and Burke had new toys to keep him occupied. He also got up early that day (not actually early for him) to open presents.

I don't see a sexual rage as much of an issue as sibling rage. JB was known to annoy Burke when he was playing with his legos. Imagine you're trying to master a great new toy, you're all excited about getting it done, and your stupid baby sister decides to play Godzilla again.

BoldBear,
That's if that's how things were. Your scenario might happen if its not BDI All, and the parents stage a sexual assault on JonBenet, to mask BR's sibling rage?

Some the contusions and abrasions, e.g. those on her face might be the result of being repeatedly whacked with the flashlight or similiar object?

Maybe BR dragged her down to the basement causing the abrasions?

The point being its not really an accident or even blunt force trauma arriving via impulse rage, since you have the sexual assault?

Without the sexual assault much of Kolar's case evaporates. With the sexual assault, you have blunt force trauma as a means to enact it.

Given BR and JonBenet's history sexual assault followed by blunt force trauma does not make much sense, i.e. its not required.

It looks like its BDI All, as per Kolar, or BDI Partial with Patsy faking a sexual assault and ligature asphyxiating JonBenet?

Accepting the latter more or less engenders PDI with the possibility that BR has been staged into the crime-scene by Patsy?


.

 

[spratsmum]

I think that the oversized panties were needed because a dead body is difficult to dress,

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

I am confused re: the oversized panties.

I've read quite a few pages back. Is the consensus that Burke put these panties on JB because they were near by (basement, Christmas tree) and the rest of the panties were missing? Am I missing something?

 

[andreww]

I am confused re: the oversized panties.

I've read quite a few pages back. Is the consensus that Burke put these panties on JB because they were near by (basement, Christmas tree) and the rest of the panties were missing? Am I missing something?

Nobody knows for sure. Could be that she was wearing them all along, but given Patsy's evasiveness about them and the fact that the rest of the package disappeared, it becomes pretty clear that somebody put them on her after the crime. Who? Thats anybody's guess.

Personally I feel they were used because they were brand new. I think the parents were aware of inappropriate behaviour going on between Burke and JB for some time, and who knows what stains (DNA) would have shown up on a random pair from her drawer. The Size 12s were clean, and those were the only panties in the house that they were certain of.

 

[kanzz]

I am confused re: the oversized panties.

I've read quite a few pages back. Is the consensus that Burke put these panties on JB because they were near by (basement, Christmas tree) and the rest of the panties were missing? Am I missing something?

Great question, EtherealMoonRose. I doubt there is a consensus, per se, only theories. And you're not the only one who is confused. Count me in.

Sometime in 2002, iirc, Lin Wood turned in an opened package of size 12-14 Bloomies (sans the Wed pair) to BPD that the R's said they found in the boxes that had been packed when they were moved from Boulder.

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

Thanks for clearing that up guys.

Hmm yes, I guess we will never know for sure. Just another thing in this case that doesn't make sense.

 

[AndHence]

Why would the Ramseys bother turning in the opened package of Bloomies? Turning them doesn't really serve their story since Patsy stated they let JonBenet have the size-12s and that they were placed in her drawer. The police never found any size-12s in her drawer, so the Ramseys turning in an opened package of them tells me they were never taken out and put in her drawer with the rest of her underwear. If, as some have suggested, the package came from the wrapped Christmas gifts in the basement, why chance turning it over to LE if, say, Burke's prints were found on the package?

 

[andreww]

Why would the Ramseys bother turning in the opened package of Bloomies? Turning them doesn't really serve their story since Patsy stated they let JonBenet have the size-12s and that they were placed in her drawer. The police never found any size-12s in her drawer, so the Ramseys turning in an opened package of them tells me they were never taken out and put in her drawer with the rest of her underwear. If, as some have suggested, the package came from the wrapped Christmas gifts in the basement, why chance turning it over to LE if, say, Burke's prints were found on the package?

To be fair, cops may have simply ignored the packaged panties in her drawer. I don't think they took the entire contents of the drawer and may not have been aware of the significance of the size 12s at that point. If they were taking underwear for the purposes of DNA sampling, it wouldn't make sense to take packaged panties would it?

Just speculation on my point as I haven't read a detailed account as to what was or wasn't in that drawer.


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[spratsmum]

the other reason that makes sense to me, is that they were going away, all of Jonbenet's other panties were either packed or dirty.

 

[andreww]

the other reason that makes sense to me, is that they were going away, all of Jonbenet's other panties were either packed or dirty.

Investigators did collect a number of pairs of panties from the underwear drawer, so I don't think thats it.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would the Ramseys bother turning in the opened package of Bloomies? Turning them doesn't really serve their story since Patsy stated they let JonBenet have the size-12s and that they were placed in her drawer. The police never found any size-12s in her drawer, so the Ramseys turning in an opened package of them tells me they were never taken out and put in her drawer with the rest of her underwear. If, as some have suggested, the package came from the wrapped Christmas gifts in the basement, why chance turning it over to LE if, say, Burke's prints were found on the package?

AndHence,
They were turned in to make the R's version of events consistent. During interview Patsy agreed that no intruder brought the size-12's into the house.

Also:
Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start

19 with what - I will make it very simple for

20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you

21 in possession of or what do you know about

22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing

23 at the time she was found murdered?

24 A. I have heard that she had on a

25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.

0078

1 Q. The underwear that she was

2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you

3 know where they come from as far as what

4 store?

5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.

6 Q. Who purchased those?

7 A. I did.

So unless the intruder left with the package of size-12's purchased by Patsy, then they should still be in the house.

The R's are claiming BPD missed them and that the R's subsequently found them!

The intruder leaving with the size-12's suggests the intruder wiped JonBenet down, as per the Coroner, redressed her in the size-12's, e.g. knew where they were located, then put the remaining six pairs in his/her pocket.

The resulting complexity, is I reckon, a consequence of Patsy inventing an explanation which allows JonBenet to be wearing those size-12, whilst in reality she is covering for Burke Ramsey, similar principles apply to Burke Ramsey's long johns.

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[UKGuy]

To be fair, cops may have simply ignored the packaged panties in her drawer. I don't think they took the entire contents of the drawer and may not have been aware of the significance of the size 12s at that point. If they were taking underwear for the purposes of DNA sampling, it wouldn't make sense to take packaged panties would it?

Just speculation on my point as I haven't read a detailed account as to what was or wasn't in that drawer.


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andreww,
Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you

2 aware that these were the size of panties

3 that she was wearing, and this has been

4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they

5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of

6 that?

7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.

8 Q. And how did you become aware of

9 that?

10 A. Something I read, I am sure.

11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

BPD are saying there were 15 pairs of underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer, and that not one pair was size-12!

i.e. there were no Bloomingdale size-12's period.

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[andreww]

andreww,
Atlanta 2000 Interview, excerpt


BPD are saying there were 15 pairs of underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer, and that not one pair was size-12!

i.e. there were no Bloomingdale size-12's period.

.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[andreww]

Was the niece that Patsy supposedly bought the size 12s for expected to be part of the group in Charlevoix?

The reason I ask is because if she was, the panties should have been wrapped and on the plane. If not, then they likely would have been in the basement with the other gifts.

 

[UKGuy]

Was the niece that Patsy supposedly bought the size 12s for expected to be part of the group in Charlevoix?

The reason I ask is because if she was, the panties should have been wrapped and on the plane. If not, then they likely would have been in the basement with the other gifts.

andreww,
Patsy's story was that she intended to mail them to her niece in time for Christmas, but that JonBenet intervened requesting them for herself?

As usual you should wave your skeptic stick over Patsy's claims.

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[andreww]

andreww,
Patsy's story was that she intended to mail them to her niece in time for Christmas, but that JonBenet intervened requesting them for herself?

As usual you should wave your skeptic stick over Patsy's claims.

.

Of course, because she didn't want cops to know that they were wrapped and among the presents that Burke ripped open.

 

[UKGuy]

Of course, because she didn't want cops to know that they were wrapped and among the presents that Burke ripped open.

andreww,
Sure, so along with no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, something Patsy should have been aware of, if the case were PDI, and the fake story about her niece, just who could Patsy be taking the bullets for, it sure aint herself!

.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
Sure, so along with no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, something Patsy should have been aware of, if the case were PDI, and the fake story about her niece, just who could Patsy be taking the bullets for, it sure aint herself!

.

Its a confusing issue.

- Patsy did buy them for the niece (why else would she buy size 12s?).
- Why weren't they mailed for Christmas? (thats why I enquired about her presence in Charlevoix).
- As the Rs would be in Charlevoix, then immediately off on the Big Red Boat, the earliest they could be sent was about Jan 7.
- So it doesn't seem likely Patsy had any intention of sending the size 12s to anyone.
- Given the above, Patsy's story that JB opened them actually becomes the most believable scenario.

That is unless you can come up with a more believable theory?

 

[UKGuy]

Its a confusing issue.

- Patsy did buy them for the niece (why else would she buy size 12s?).
- Why weren't they mailed for Christmas? (thats why I enquired about her presence in Charlevoix).
- As the Rs would be in Charlevoix, then immediately off on the Big Red Boat, the earliest they could be sent was about Jan 7.
- So it doesn't seem likely Patsy had any intention of sending the size 12s to anyone.
- Given the above, Patsy's story that JB opened them actually becomes the most believable scenario.

That is unless you can come up with a more believable theory?

andeww,

- Patsy did buy them for the niece (why else would she buy size 12s?).

Who knows, who cares, Patsy admits buying them.

Why weren't they mailed for Christmas?

Patsy says in the Christmas rush, she forgot.

That is unless you can come up with a more believable theory?

Its pretty obvious, BR opened them and Patsy is covering for him?

If it wasn't for Coroner Meyer's remarks about JonBenet being wiped down, JR might have been a candidate for dressing JonBenet in the size-12's?

Here is what I assume: Patsy was not present when the size-12's were opened, Patsy was not present when the remaining size-12's were removed.

Patsy is patently covering for the person who opened and removed the size-12's, that person likely took the remaining size-12's and size-6 underwear and hid them away?

Patsy's story about the size-12's nearly works, except BPD say there were no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer and after exhaustively searching the house, no size-12's period.

So if its all innocent behavior with JonBenet regarding the size-12's, why remove the remaining size-12's.

Fact Check: BPD have never confirmed or dis-confirmed that a Wednesday pair of size-6 Bloomingdale's was among the 15 pairs removed from her underwear drawer.

.

 

[andreww]

andeww,

Who knows, who cares, Patsy admits buying them.


Patsy says in the Christmas rush, she forgot.


Its pretty obvious, BR opened them and Patsy is covering for him?

If it wasn't for Coroner Meyer's remarks about JonBenet being wiped down, JR might have been a candidate for dressing JonBenet in the size-12's?

Here is what I assume: Patsy was not present when the size-12's were opened, Patsy was not present when the remaining size-12's were removed.

Patsy is patently covering for the person who opened and removed the size-12's, that person likely took the remaining size-12's and size-6 underwear and hid them away?

Patsy's story about the size-12's nearly works, except BPD say there were no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer and after exhaustively searching the house, no size-12's period.

So if its all innocent behavior with JonBenet regarding the size-12's, why remove the remaining size-12's.

Fact Check: BPD have never confirmed or dis-confirmed that a Wednesday pair of size-6 Bloomingdale's was among the 15 pairs removed from her underwear drawer.

.

BBM Then the question becomes, did they ever buy size 6 panties? Patsy waffles on that question as I recall. Does it really matter?