The Rope and the knots

[SunnieRN]

Someone on another thread here, stated that someone must have tied the knots that were in the rope, prior to this event. That would have meant that 'someone' would have had to then, rolled up and placed the rope on the shelf.

How could that have been done with absolutely no dna evidence being present. Don't believe that could have happened.

As for tracing the rope, I think that would have been next to impossible, as I have bought them at boat supply stores, walmart and an rv store. All of the ones I purchased were firm and had too be secured when rolled for storage. I realize there are peobably several brands and types, but they were NOT like the one used in LE's video.

That is another thing. There were no pnotos shown of her hands secured behind her back, or the ropes on the ankles and how they were secured. Do we know if she actually had the ropes in the figure 8 type knots? Just asking.:waitasec:

 

[SunnieRN]

Just thought of something. The area of pallor between the two ligature marks. Can this be due to the fact that the smaller ligature mark occurred PRIOR to death, whereas the larger, higher ligature marking occurred AFTER death? Otherwise, wouldn't they both have been from the ame time without pallor being visible between?:waitasec:

 

[SunnieRN]

Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.

I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.

 

[jjenny]

Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.

I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.

Yes, her feet were only 2' off the ground. If she miscalculated she could have ended up on the ground and not dead. But yet she apparently made no attempt to estimate if the rope she was using would end up being too long. I find it very bizarre that the woman contemplating suicide wouldn't have gotten onto the balcony prior to actually hanging herself. I mean, what if the railing was not going to hold? And why didn't she attach the rope to the railing itself rather than the bed?

 

[tvscum]

A freeze frame of the afternoon helicopter video clearly showed the rope hanging from the balcony in the exact same position as the evidence photo taken earlier in the day.

"The rope was hanging over the balcony from the moment (officers) arrived on scene until they seized it later in the evening as evidence," said Lt. Nesbit.

Some online observers have questioned the evidence photos themselves.

Three photos posted on the Sheriff's web site show the French doors of the mansion's balcony in three different positions.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

 

[IWannaKnow]

The thing about cutting rope with a knife (as opposed to scissors) is that I imagine some amount of sawing is necessary, which should produce fibers! I realize we aren't talking a very thick rope here, but presumably it's strong given its intended use and it wouldn't just break in half at the touch of a knife. There had to be some amount of sawing action, so where are those fibers? If it was cut with those knives at all.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

From AR page 8, BBM~

Neck:
The free "slipping" portion of the rope which passes through the knot extends 5 inches from it and has an additional 1-1/4 inch extension of frayed fibers.

I realize that the rope would probably fray from cutting, period. But my experience has been that the more 'sawing' action is required, the more it will fray...

Additionally, from the same page, it states that the right wrist had 5 loops, the left wrist had 6. The right ankle had 6 loops and the left had 8. More on the left side on both. That would imply a right handed person did this, IMO. Wonder if Rebecca was right or left handed?

 

[IWannaKnow]

Just thought of something. The area of pallor between the two ligature marks. Can this be due to the fact that the smaller ligature mark occurred PRIOR to death, whereas the larger, higher ligature marking occurred AFTER death? Otherwise, wouldn't they both have been from the ame time without pallor being visible between?:waitasec:

Indeed. How would those marks get there "separated by an area of pallor"? If it came from the rope, shouldn't those marks look the same as the ligature furrow? If the theory is that the rope "slipped" on the way down, once again, why an area of pallor? There shouldn't be any blood supply to the area....maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't think so.

Page 9:
discussing the ligature furrow:

HEAD AND NECK:
It is moderately deep, dried, and reddish-brown. Posteriorly, there is a parallel, thin, red line situated 1/8 inch below the dried ligature furrow for a distance of 2-1/2 inches and separated from it by an area of pallor.

 

[CalElliot]

I tried a loose re-creation of the rope use using a 60' fluorescent red-tow rope of 3/8" diameter with yellow tube on one end with markings that can be used for only two persons or maximum 340 lbs.

I used same number of loops as indicated in autopsy; loose bindings. The tow-rope knots easily enough, though I could not come close to replicating the precision knots in the video.

The bindings seem to account for about 20 feet of rope, which would leave at least 40 feet of tow-rope to account for running from the bed, through the room, over the balcony, and the noose.

New in the bag, the tow-rope has knotted loops at both ends with no frayed ends. It is a type commonly sold for $12-$20 in boating stores in Southern California.

It is somewhat flat in the braid, not as rounded as the rope shown in the LE video; the diameter gets considerably larger and rounder toward the knots at the ends. To me looks identical to the tow-rope used at crime scene.

 

[CalElliot]

By even the loosest estimates, this would leave a rather significant chunk of tow-rope unaccounted for.

Cynic, Bonepile, anyone else, based on depth of balcony and size of room, can you run the numbers from bed to noose... How many feet?

 

[sorrell skye]

Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".

In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.

The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Standard size for double beds is 75".

224" - 75" = 149".

So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.

149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.

I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.

 

[Curious Me]

Another thought. There was only the footprints that LE noted, on the balcony. How did Rebecca perfectly estimate and cut the rope the exact length she needed to execute a hanging that would leave her 2 1/2 feet off the ground? She certainly didn't walk onto the balcony, let the rope down and measure where to cut it. There would have been additional footprints.

I would have been fearful of the rope being too long and ending up on the ground.

My friend has asked me that very fact about this case. How did Rebecca estimate how much rope to cut if she did not go out to the balcony to get some calculations? How did she measure before cutting? Why aren't there more of her footprints on that balcony?

Didn't that seem extremely odd to LE?

I started thinking about if the rope was new, I would think it wouldn't be all loose and flexible like in the demo. Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting? Then, there's questions about the cutting of the rope and no evidence it was ever cut in that room. I guess LE thought we'd be satisfied with the rope demo.

 

[CalElliot]

Valhall (Hinky Meter) calculated the depth of the balcony @ 24".

In the SDSO diagram,the bedroom measures 224" long x 109.6" wide.

The bed (which looks like a double-sized bed) moved ~7.5" from the wall.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Standard size for double beds is 75".

224" - 75" = 149".

So there would have been 149" from the foot of the bed (minus a couple more inches for the footboard) to the balcony threshold.

149" + 24" = 173" from the foot of the bed to the balcony railing, but you need to add a few more feet for the rope going @ an angle up over the 36" high railing.

I'm going to guestimate that roughly 17' to 19' of rope (give or take a few inches) was used going from the footboard of the bed to where it went over the top of the railing.

So add another 10' for drop and that leaves 10' of the tow-rope missing.

 

[elementry]

My friend has asked me that very fact about this case. How did Rebecca estimate how much rope to cut if she did not go out to the balcony to get some calculations? How did she measure before cutting? Why aren't there more of her footprints on that balcony?

Didn't that seem extremely odd to LE?

I started thinking about if the rope was new, I would think it wouldn't be all loose and flexible like in the demo. Wouldn't a new rope be more kinked up and harder to do all that self knotting? Then, there's questions about the cutting of the rope and no evidence it was ever cut in that room. I guess LE thought we'd be satisfied with the rope demo.

The charitable view is that SD LE has proven themselves to be a lazy bunch, and possibly bungled the search for justice on behalf of Rebecca Zahau. The less charitable view is that they willfully forced a limited grouping of facts into a preordained conclusion, and that it wasn't mere bungling. ( Let it be added, that the most charitable view is that they happen to be right about all of this and only ne'er-do-wells and armchair Sherlocks and disgruntled family members of the deceased would disagree with LE's top of the line work on this case.)

Btw,as I may have quipped earlier: How many SD detectives does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

(16?)

 

[ehough22]

While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?

 

[Jade]

While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?

As far as measurements this is an interesting:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_units_of_measurement"]Burmese units of measurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

~Burma is one of three countries that still predominantly uses a non-metric system of measure, according to the CIA Factbook.[178] The common units of measure are unique to Burma but the government web pages use both imperial units[179] and metric units.[180]~

Maybe she learned a method of measurement that makes it easier to determine lengths.

Not a landlocked country, heavily agrarian with a huge amount of rice grown both aspects assume a working relationship with ropes and knots.

It seems the traditional skills are utilized by everyone. It says the country lacks inadequate infrastructure and skills in modern technology.

To me it makes sense she would have agrarian skills acquired during her youth.

IMO

 

[curiousjo]

http://www.examiner.com/us-headline...d-about-rope-used-rebecca-zahau-hanging-death

"If there was no rope hanging from the balcony and the doors were closed but she was found bound, gagged and with a noose around her neck, she would not have closed the doors if she did what they said. If there is no rope hanging then she wasn't hanging there.”

I would like to see the photos the neighbor boys took.

 

[curiousjo]

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

Rope discussed in video

 

[SunnieRN]

While I absolutely believe this was murder and that Rebecca would have needed to have some shockingly accurate visual measuring skills, the fact remains that someone did do all this with the rope without setting foot on the balcony. I don't believe Rebecca had the skills to do it. For those who believe it was murder- what is the thinking about her killer, then? How did they accomplish this?

I have theories on how this was done, as I also believe it was murder. As for measuring the rope, I don't truly believe that Rebecca had anything at all to do with that. moo of course.

http://www.examiner.com/us-headline...d-about-rope-used-rebecca-zahau-hanging-death

"If there was no rope hanging from the balcony and the doors were closed but she was found bound, gagged and with a noose around her neck, she would not have closed the doors if she did what they said. If there is no rope hanging then she wasn't hanging there.”

I would like to see the photos the neighbor boys took.

As would I. I would think/hope that LE confiscated the photos. I have heard from one person, however, that it did not happen and that people are still in have pictures of Rebecca and of the scene.

As for no rope hanging there, it truly makes one think, does it not? Who moved the rope if Rebecca truly was 'hanging' there?

 

[jjenny]

I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?

 

[sorrell skye]

I think it would be most interesting to see those photos other people took and if they got the balcony-were the doors opened or closed early in the day?

Yes - it would be very interesting to see photos of the balcony doors prior to the News 8 footage @ 4:45 p.m. on Sept. 13. I hope that private citizen photos are still preserved & available.