The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #5

[Missouri Mule]

MM, Calimama posted a question about this video in the Questions thread. Do you know anything more about it? Will it ever be more than a trailer?

The last I heard was that it lacked funding or something to that effect and there were no plans to finish it. Kathee may have more information about the film. I would very much like to see it finished.

 

[Simply Caustic]

I'm glad to see this general discussion thread is back....just when I caught up, it closed down! My typical luck.

I've taken the advice that I've found littered throughout the previous three threads I was able to read (1,2,4): Before asking a question/re-hashing an old issue, check the older threads and see if you can find your answer therein. Not to say you old-school 3MW sleuthers aren't nice about answering questions - it's just easier having done a thorough background of the case. That being said....the first mention that I saw, at least, of the stolen car nearby the Streeter/Levitt home, was in the Disappeared video. I have read through and realize some of you think it was irrelevant, or a red herring, etc. but I have a question: Was it brought up in print or tv media at the time of the disappearance, or was this newly 'discovered' for the Disappeared episode?

I ask because for the police to go to the expense of purchasing the van in question (and I'm not even going to modify van with a color..given that there's a slew of available shades, depending on who you ask or what paper you reference)...they must have been fairly confident that the van was, in fact, a part of this disappearance. Is it feasible that the van was the actual mobile-crime-scene, perhaps, and the stolen car the getaway car? So that after ditching the van in some random body of water, or torching it Chicago-style, (I'm partial to Chitown references, being from here)....they then had a relatively safe getaway car? Just some thoughts.

Perhaps they even intentionally let the PorchLady see them in the van, thinking she would report it immediately (although she didn't) and then they drove the stolen car to their final destination post-abduction/murder...thinking (erroneously, it turns out) that there could be a search for the 3MW first thing the following morning...and they could get away scot-free, as they weren't in the van. Just an idea.

 

[Simply Caustic]

I wish they would up the reward money. 42k in 2012 means nothing.

If you change that thing to 150k, I bet people start talking. You'll see ex-girlfriends come out of the woodwork.

I wonder if that $40,000 is even valid anymore. Meaning, was that money collected and held in trust, to be doled out upon a successful prosecution, or were certain caveats placed upon it? That's even assuming the monies were collected. Otherwise, it's entirely possible (even probable, in my humble opinion) that those were funds pledged by companies/firms/etc, in which case, there may have been a time frame placed upon their pledge, as well. I think (not sure) that there were certain monies paid into a reward fund by private individuals, which SHOULD still be available, but the pledges are by no means a sure thing.

It would be great if a renewed pledge was made by someone/some business, with some publicity behind it, to really jog some memories (and some greediness, but that's just my opinion). Perhaps that could assist in finally solving this case. But I honestly can't recall too many rewards that were actually paid out to an individual in a missing persons case, for finding the perps - although I'm sure such cases much exist.

Just my opinion, nothing more.

 

[Luzer]

One thing that bothers me about the porch lady van sighting is the tumor. What kind of tumor did Suzie have that would have been visible from the porch to the street. Does anyone have a picture showing Suzie's tumor?

 

[Trooogrit]

Couple years ago I was in springfield, and I was on the street that they turned around on ( I believe I was on the street) if the windows were down in the van and the lady would have been to the drivers side of the van I think it is a possible that they were close enough for the porchlady to clearly see and hear what she said. Which is interesting in itself because if this was true, it may have been a deliberate move to turn in her driveway, because she would have been seen also, the driveways and porch were close. That bears the question would Suzie have turned there so the woman was alerted to her, and called the police immediately?

 

[Simply Caustic]

I'm sure the reward money is not even that high anymore. There were donations collected from private individuals at banks, places of employment, etc and that money should be in an account somewhere drawing interest (if it were still possible to make any interest on your money). But most of the reward money was pledged from Smithy's and they are no longer in business. The way corporate pledged money works is that it is not collected until it is needed and paid out. Sometimes corporate pledged money even has a time limit placed on the length of the pledge. I suspect what reward money that would be available today is a very small portion of the original $42,000.

Okay....I totally overlooked this post of yours - concise and to the point....and thereby rendering my post from earlier today, redundant. My apologies Darn it, I thought I was all caught up - guess I missed a coupla pages.

 

[Simply Caustic]

One thing that bothers me about the porch lady van sighting is the tumor. What kind of tumor did Suzie have that would have been visible from the porch to the street. Does anyone have a picture showing Suzie's tumor?

I do not know how to bring forward posts from previous threads, but here's my vailiant effort at doing just that:


BOLDED AND ITALICIZED BELOW IS FROM POST BY HURRICANE IN THREAD 4, #41

It is my opinion that a van was used and I tend to believe the porch lady sighting is valid. Having said that however there has always been two points of contention for this:

*Could she have heard the unseen male voice instructing Suzie? I guess it is possible during the quiet time at 6:30 a.m. and if perhaps the male sat on the floor of the van behind the doghouse (engine). Everything would have to be just right.

*Could she have seen the small birthmark and/or fatty tumor near Suzie’s lip? That is a little harder for me to get around and accept.

Suzie’s friends are on record as saying that Suzie was very self-conscious about herself and she did an excellent job at disguising them with makeup. So if it is true that the porch lady was able to see them then there is no doubt that the girls were in the house and that the damp wash cloths were theirs from when they removed their makeup. That would also eliminate any plans that they might have had of going back out that night.


This post by Hurricane does tend to validate to me, at least, that the Porch Lady's sighting shouldn't be discounted sheerly because of the tumor on Suzie's lip/mouth. Makeup can work wonders, especially if one is already self-conscious about a particular feature.

 

[monkeymann]

Couple years ago I was in springfield, and I was on the street that they turned around on ( I believe I was on the street) if the windows were down in the van and the lady would have been to the drivers side of the van I think it is a possible that they were close enough for the porchlady to clearly see and hear what she said. Which is interesting in itself because if this was true, it may have been a deliberate move to turn in her driveway, because she would have been seen also, the driveways and porch were close. That bears the question would Suzie have turned there so the woman was alerted to her, and called the police immediately?

The address of the Porch Lady has NEVER been publically disclosed that I am aware of. If it has, please let us know which block of "Grand Street" it was located in.

I grew up in that neighborhood. Some of the driveways are long with the houses set fairly far away from the road. Some of the driveways are shorter. And then some of them are "Way" short.

On the "Long" driveways, the houses are set way too far back from where the drive way meets the road, for anyone to have ever been able to have heard or seen who was driving a van that had pulled into the driveway to turn around.

On the "Medium" driveways, the houses are STILL too far back from road for someone to be recognized. They may have been heard, but the person would have had to have talked really loud.

On the "Short" driveways it could be possible to see who was driving the van, and also may be heard as well.

But even then....I don't think someone sitting on their porch would have heard what someone was say who was inside the van.....over the noise of the vans engine. They would have had to have pulled all the way up to the house...not just "In To" the driveway.

Now I'm not saying that the Van Sighting, or the Porch Ladys sighting of the van weren't valid.....I just don't think she would have been able to hear what someone was saying who was inside the van, over the engine of the van, unless that person in the van was being pretty loud.

I DO however believe as well that, if it were one of the "Short" driveways, the Porch Lady probably would have been able to have seen...to some degree....who was driving the van.....at least enough to give a general description.

Just my thoughts and my opinion.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I'm reasonably familiar with the area and had assumed it was one of the "short" driveways on the south side of the street. I would surmise that it was a block or so from the "T" that runs north and south off Grand when it was necessary to turn around to get back to Oak Grove and then to Cherry. Somewhere I have read it was either 12 or 15 blocks to the east which would place it right about at this location.

One can look at Mapquest and see what I am referencing. Grand is one block to the north of Delmar. The van probably went up Kentwood to Grand and then went out east believing it would go completely out of town. Note: It would have been possible for the van to have gone south to Catalpa and out of town but Cherry is a better route. If the van had gone north at the "T" it would have dead ended, so the only two routes were south to Catalpa or back west to Oak Grove to Cherry, the most likely route.

It is easy to see why one would think Grand would go out of town as it appears to be a major route but it doesn't cross the by-pass. This suggests the driver was either flustered or didn't know the route which suggests the possibility this was not a well planned operation but more spontaneous.

 

[monkeymann]

I'm glad to see this general discussion thread is back....just when I caught up, it closed down! My typical luck.

I've taken the advice that I've found littered throughout the previous three threads I was able to read (1,2,4): Before asking a question/re-hashing an old issue, check the older threads and see if you can find your answer therein. Not to say you old-school 3MW sleuthers aren't nice about answering questions - it's just easier having done a thorough background of the case. That being said....the first mention that I saw, at least, of the stolen car nearby the Streeter/Levitt home, was in the Disappeared video. I have read through and realize some of you think it was irrelevant, or a red herring, etc. but I have a question: Was it brought up in print or tv media at the time of the disappearance, or was this newly 'discovered' for the Disappeared episode?

I ask because for the police to go to the expense of purchasing the van in question (and I'm not even going to modify van with a color..given that there's a slew of available shades, depending on who you ask or what paper you reference)...they must have been fairly confident that the van was, in fact, a part of this disappearance. Is it feasible that the van was the actual mobile-crime-scene, perhaps, and the stolen car the getaway car? So that after ditching the van in some random body of water, or torching it Chicago-style, (I'm partial to Chitown references, being from here)....they then had a relatively safe getaway car? Just some thoughts.

Perhaps they even intentionally let the PorchLady see them in the van, thinking she would report it immediately (although she didn't) and then they drove the stolen car to their final destination post-abduction/murder...thinking (erroneously, it turns out) that there could be a search for the 3MW first thing the following morning...and they could get away scot-free, as they weren't in the van. Just an idea.

It was mentioned by one of the investigators, during an interview with one of the local tv-stations, probaby KY3, early early early in the investigaton.

I will give you credit though....I have thought about the whole "Stolen Car" thing too. Not so much in the Porch Lady sighting aspect, but in the "Stolen Car", not tied to anyone that committed the crime aspect, women could have been put into the trunk of the car.

I think I remember that the car was eventually located in the Battlefield Mall parking lot, and police stated that it was determined to NOT be associated with the 3MW case. (Not that that means anything really.....Never know if the police are saying things like that as a matter of fact, or just saying that because it WAS pertinant to the investigation, and they just didn't want to compromise the evidence)

Even if the "Stolen Car" wasn't connected to the 3MW crime, I've always thought that the abductors may have used a car, and not a van like we've all been stuck on.

If the women were placed in the trunk of a car, instead of a van, it would have solved three problems for the abductor's. It would have provided them with the ability contain and control all three women, as well as keep them from being seen. Especially if the trunk didn't have anything in it. Even "Small" cars with trunks, have the capacity to hold three adults....especially since I'm sure the abductors wouldn't have cared if the women were "Crammed" into the trunk.......as long as they were contained and controlled, and out of sight.

 

[monkeymann]

I'm reasonably familiar with the area and had assumed it was one of the "short" driveways on the south side of the street. I would surmise that it was a block or so from the "T" that runs north and south off Grand when it was necessary to turn around to get back to Oak Grove and then to Cherry. Somewhere I have read it was either 12 or 15 blocks to the east which would place it right about at this location.

One can look at Mapquest and see what I am referencing. Grand is one block to the north of Delmar. The van probably went up Kentwood to Grand and then went out east believing it would go completely out of town. Note: It would have been possible for the van to have gone south to Catalpa and out of town but Cherry is a better route. If the van had gone north at the "T" it would have dead ended, so the only two routes were south to Catalpa or back west to Oak Grove to Cherry, the most likely route.

It is easy to see why one would think Grand would go out of town as it appears to be a major route but it doesn't cross the by-pass. This suggests the driver was either flustered or didn't know the route which suggests the possibility this was not a well planned operation but more spontaneous.

Remember.....I was the one who had originally talked about the possibility that they had gone south to Catalpa, then east to get past 65. It was when I was discussing the fact that Gerald Carnahan had a house that was less than a mile away from where Grand Street "T"'s. Craig Street is the last street on Grand before the "T". And if they had turned south onto Craig Street, or most of the streets prior to Craig, they could have gone aprox. two blocks south to Catalpa, then gone East past 65 Hwy a couple blocks, and you were into the Neighborhood where Gerald Carnahan lived.

Also, I've looked at Google Earth, there aren't a lot of driveways on the South side of the house, with porchs on them, with houses right next door.....Thats why I'd love to know "Exactally" which block the Porch Lady sighting happened on.

I will say that Google Earth doesn't give you the ability really get a good look at the short block/half block of Grand, just past Craig, that ends at the "T" where 65 hwy is. That may be where they're talking about the Porch Lady Sighting occuring. It would have made sense. That would have been about where they would have realized that Grand didn't go past 65hwy.

 

[CaliMama]

One thing that bothers me about the porch lady van sighting is the tumor. What kind of tumor did Suzie have that would have been visible from the porch to the street. Does anyone have a picture showing Suzie's tumor?

I read on the SPD website a couple of days ago that it was a tumor that made it appear that she had something in her mouth. That was the way they described it. However, when I was going back to read all of the general discussion threads, there was a poster who befriended her for a short time (I think he said that he moved to Iowa and only went to Kickapoo high for a couple of months) that said it looked like a beauty mark/birth mark (I'll see if I can find his exact description).

So I am a little confused about this also.

FOUND IT: Thread 1, post # 17 !

And here is the written description from the SPD website: White female, DOB 03/09/73, 5'2'', 102 lbs., brown eyes, straight bleached-blonde, shoulder-length hair, large teeth with no dental work. She has a 3-1/2'' scar on top of her right forearm and a small tumor in the left corner of her mouth which gives the appearance that she has something in her mouth. This link also has a pic showing what it looked like: http://www.springfieldmo.gov/spd/GeneralInfo/susiestreeter.html

 

[HmmWhoKnows]

The Grand Jury listed two suspects that were brand new to Springfield and recently out of prison, correct?

That would explain the mishaps of a van driving down unfamiliar paths if this person was driving.

I think the van tips have validity just don't take them too seriously. The people making claims about them could be grossly exagerrating. However, I think it was a van because tractor trailers (even smaller ones) are loud and hard to maneuver in small neighborhoods. Pickup trucks give the women freedom and display a struggle. So a van is the only logical vehicle for quick transport.

 

[CaliMama]

The Grand Jury listed two suspects that were brand new to Springfield and recently out of prison, correct?

That would explain the mishaps of a van driving down unfamiliar paths if this person was driving.

I think the van tips have validity just don't take them too seriously. The people making claims about them could be grossly exagerrating. However, I think it was a van because tractor trailers (even smaller ones) are loud and hard to maneuver in small neighborhoods. Pickup trucks give the women freedom and display a struggle. So a van is the only logical vehicle for quick transport.

My husband just reminded me the other day of how the SPD had a similar van parked on the grass in front of the station (with a sign encouraging tips to be called in and a phone #) for what seemed like years. We drove by it every day. They must have taken it seriously for some reason. Could there be more info regarding that van than just what the porch lady said?

 

[HmmWhoKnows]

My husband just reminded me the other day of how the SPD had a similar van parked on the grass in front of the station (with a sign encouraging tips to be called in and a phone #) for what seemed like years. We drove by it every day. They must have taken it seriously for some reason. Could there be more info regarding that van than just what the porch lady said?

Yes everyone and their dog saw a van and flooded the police station with tips.

There was a recent tip on an eBay forum where someone ran into the van almost on Grand street while they were up early driving. They said their information is with the cops. Also in the Barbara Highton book she claims her grandmother's (or great aunt, can't recall) sighting on N. Clay was a woman fitting Suzie's profile in just her shirt coming out of a van. This tip was actually followed up on according to the author.

I have a picture of a suspect's van. Fits the description, year, color DEAD on. the suspect was discussed by me here several times. He's "Can't Say's" number one guy.

 

[CaliMama]

Regarding Suzie's tumor/birthmark/beauty mark: If you go to the SPD website http://www.springfieldmo.gov/spd/GeneralInfo/susiestreeter.html, the description says it is on the left side, but it looks like the right side to me. I even asked my husband to confirm this to make sure that I am not crazy or just super exhausted and tired. Take a look. Am I seeing things?

 

[Trooogrit]

The address of the Porch Lady has NEVER been publically disclosed that I am aware of. If it has, please let us know which block of "Grand Street" it was located in.

I grew up in that neighborhood. Some of the driveways are long with the houses set fairly far away from the road. Some of the driveways are shorter. And then some of them are "Way" short.

On the "Long" driveways, the houses are set way too far back from where the drive way meets the road, for anyone to have ever been able to have heard or seen who was driving a van that had pulled into the driveway to turn around.

On the "Medium" driveways, the houses are STILL too far back from road for someone to be recognized. They may have been heard, but the person would have had to have talked really loud.

On the "Short" driveways it could be possible to see who was driving the van, and also may be heard as well.

But even then....I don't think someone sitting on their porch would have heard what someone was say who was inside the van.....over the noise of the vans engine. They would have had to have pulled all the way up to the house...not just "In To" the driveway.

Now I'm not saying that the Van Sighting, or the Porch Ladys sighting of the van weren't valid.....I just don't think she would have been able to hear what someone was saying who was inside the van, over the engine of the van, unless that person in the van was being pretty loud.

I DO however believe as well that, if it were one of the "Short" driveways, the Porch Lady probably would have been able to have seen...to some degree....who was driving the van.....at least enough to give a general description.

Just my thoughts and my opinion.

I was not able to determine the exact address, or there was no way to prove I was right. I just remember it occurred to me that the if this were a true sighting, and it happened the way the porchlady described it, it was one the houses just past South belcrest on the north side of the street. It was also quite a distance from the dead end. This led me to believe the perp was local and knew springfield pretty well, because he corrected the driver almost immediately after missing the turn to go south on Belcrest to Catalpa. This was my opinion of the streets taken, but some of the other streets cut straight through to Catalpa also, however this looked like the well traveled route. I do not believe the driveways closer to the dead end would have worked for that sighting. This also led me to believe the perp was local because this is 6 blocks west of that T. Someone not familiar with area would have gone all the way to the deadend.

 

[HmmWhoKnows]

I still think the likely suspect driving was a newcomer. While I lived here during my college years, I used to turn on Cherry or Grand hoping to hit 65 then realize my mistake or sometimes going all the way down. It's done commonly among people who aren't direction saavy. Surely someone taking 3 women has somewhat of a plan or maybe this was the one thing they didn't think of.

CaliMama, are you sure you're not confusing left/right based on looking at a mirror image of Suzie...right would be HER left.

Also, I've been thinking more and more about Montgomery Wards delivery of the water bed. How many males do we know of entering 1717 E Delmar while Sherrill and Suzie lived there? Could perhaps the waterbed guys tipped off a perp or was a perp themselves? Are one of these guys the ones that came into Springfield recently before the crime? Given by the GJ 3 suspects? Someone could have easily seen a defenseless mother and her attractive daughter as a good rape target. If the delivery was made within a week or two, I think they are likely. I'm sure the cops were hard on this angle that's why I think if this was a suspect, they;d be one of the GJ3.

 

[CaliMama]

I still think the likely suspect driving was a newcomer. While I lived here during my college years, I used to turn on Cherry or Grand hoping to hit 65 then realize my mistake or sometimes going all the way down. It's done commonly among people who aren't direction saavy. Surely someone taking 3 women has somewhat of a plan or maybe this was the one thing they didn't think of.

CaliMama, are you sure you're not confusing left/right based on looking at a mirror image of Suzie...right would be HER left.

Also, I've been thinking more and more about Montgomery Wards delivery of the water bed. How many males do we know of entering 1717 E Delmar while Sherrill and Suzie lived there? Could perhaps the waterbed guys tipped off a perp or was a perp themselves? Are one of these guys the ones that came into Springfield recently before the crime? Given by the GJ 3 suspects? Someone could have easily seen a defenseless mother and her attractive daughter as a good rape target. If the delivery was made within a week or two, I think they are likely. I'm sure the cops were hard on this angle that's why I think if this was a suspect, they;d be one of the GJ3.

That's a really good point! What I meant before about the van and other information was that maybe, one of the suspects of the GJ3 actually owned a similar van or had access to a similar van. I don't remember how it was back then, but now, random guys use their own vehicles to deliver items from stores sometimes. I don't remember seeing any Montgomery Wards trucks around, but that was a long time ago...I might be wrong.

 

[former central time]

I was not able to determine the exact address, or there was no way to prove I was right. I just remember it occurred to me that the if this were a true sighting, and it happened the way the porchlady described it, it was one the houses just past South belcrest on the north side of the street. It was also quite a distance from the dead end. This led me to believe the perp was local and knew springfield pretty well, because he corrected the driver almost immediately after missing the turn to go south on Belcrest to Catalpa. This was my opinion of the streets taken, but some of the other streets cut straight through to Catalpa also, however this looked like the well traveled route. I do not believe the driveways closer to the dead end would have worked for that sighting. This also led me to believe the perp was local because this is 6 blocks west of that T. Someone not familiar with area would have gone all the way to the deadend.

I have seen meteorological data from that morning, which showed a heavy fog over the Ozarks at dawn. That may have participated with the driver getting lost. While it had cleared well by 8 AM, at 6 AM was quite thick. Some of the accounts to this sighting say 'porch lady' saw this turnaround at 6 AM, peppered with such details as a mole on a blond female driver, given these conditions, I question. But, I can more easily accept a later time such as 6:30. I also have trouble with this lady missing Suzie's likeness in all the media coverage at the time of the case, and it was the posters in town at a later time that tipped her off. Opinions were also divided in LE at the time as well.

Eyewitness accounts are hardly fool proof. 60 Minutes ran a piece last year on a woman in North Carolina who misidentified the man who raped her, despite her careful and detailed account of the rape. The innocent man served time in prison until DNA evidence finally cleared him. The state can have their heads handed to them in eyewitness accounts with skillful defense attorneys raising the bar of doubt and credibility.

But, at the investigative stage, I can go along to get along with the 'porch lady' sighting, favoring a sighting time no earlier than 6:30 AMish.