The Stine And Ramsey Friendship/relationship

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by ItzShea, May 30, 2018.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    I think we have been here before. You appear to accept what you get in the wine-cellar at face value.

    That's fine and dandy if its real, but its a staged crime-scene, so who knows whats fake and whats authentic?

    I disagree. According to the Ramsey version of events they went to bed and when they awoke JonBenet was gone, i.e. an Intruder.

    This is why they wrote a RN, it validates the idea of an intruder, otherwise why not sprinkle LHP references in the RN?

    Why was something that could be linked to LHP not used to kill JonBenet?

    The wine-cellar has not been staged to look as if LHP kidnapped and killed JonBenet, later when in discussion with detectives JR and PR just flung everyone under the bus, including LHP, you can see this in the interviews, I don't recognize that, That's been moved, Somebody moved the suitcase, etc.

    If the R's intended the basement as LHPDI why was the broken window open, why was the suitcase down there, why were the gifts partially opened, why was the chair left in front of the door?

    Did LHP come through the window, did she escape via the window, if she walked out the door why did she not take JonBenet with her?

    Just because JR and PR are willing to fling LHP under the bus after the fact does not mean the wine-cellar staging has been designed with this in mind.

    JR even referenced some guy at AG as the potential killer, same tactics as used with LHP.


    Nearly everything in the wine-cellar, including JonBenet's clothes, the gifts, the toys, etc are all likely staged.

    JR repeated the LHP makeover on Lou Smit, except Lou Smit probably interpreted the basement forensic evidence as it was originally intended, prior to it being amended, e.g. a Psychopathic Intruder.

    JR plays along as LS enacts the window entry scene etc. This is JR's MO, he has done it throughout the case, most recently on Dr. Phil with his tale about the flashlight, i.e the murder weapon in the CBS Documentary, and most famously when he found the body !

    Remember JR telling Lou Smit Patsy never knew about the gifts in the wine-cellar?

    .
     
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  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    questfortrue,
    Sure, but that's not the same as staging the crime-scene so to implicate LHP. The staging came first then afterwards everyone was flung under the bus. Also the R's would have known up front that LHP would be cleared, it was just a facade. Everyone could have been flung under the bus without any staging, it's neutral wrt Who Did It.



    Funny that, in the interviews they repeatedly ask about JonbBenet playing on her bike, not Burke though.

    So John says Burke got a bike, Burke says he got a bike, Julie Poppen says Burke got a bike, and Barnhill says he saw Burke on a bike. That's a pretty good case for Burke getting a bike?


    You could be right, maybe GS knew how to offshore JR's liabilities?

    BlueCrab's theory lacks forensic evidence there is nothing to place an associate of Burke in the house that night. Yet as we all should know absence of evidence does not demonstrate no link since the parents could have cleaned stuff up?

    We still have a missing bike and photographs, its curious nobody has asked much about them, so patently they played some role?

    .
     
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  3. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    Is that what happened to BlueCrab?
    He got bullied into leaving? Then it sounds like he was on the right trail too! I wish he were still here.
     
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  4. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    That and what ever was in Johns’ golf bag that was so important that they get it out of the basement?
     
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  5. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    I think PR was hitting the booze pretty hard too.
     
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  6. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    UK- Your whole response gave me a
    headache. So, I will try and answer piece by piece or point by point.
     
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  7. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    I am BlueCrabs’ groupie - whether he needs one or not!
    I am learning All Things BlueCrab!
    DS and his Best Friend Psychopathic -although dismissed as autistic- BR (incidentally within the age range pointed out to be most dangerous to young girls), also JAR- who was the ONLY human of either sex to cover his visage. So, if he had been scratched in the face?
    A dying child would have fought. And Jonbenet was no shrinking violet. She was ‘a firecracker’ in her fathers’ own words. She did not die without taking some DNA with her.
    The missing bike. The bike marks in the snow?
    DS. The strange Stine/Ramsey relationship. The idea DS might have been meant to go to MI with the family and his Best Friend? That Precious Age when young boys are considered the most dangerous to young girls?
     
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  8. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    Sorry...
    Run your mouth about BlueCrab all you want; however- it is exactly what I thought. You won’t change my mind. Except- was JAR involved as well as DS and BR?
    He was the only one who covered his face after the murder and on live TV. To cover up scratches? He could forever deny involvement in JBR murder; until Christ calls his Virgin Bride home, unless the world saw scratches on his face! If he was the ONLY male residing in the Ramsey home who had scratches in his face that morning, when he covered his face with a coat and moved from the home to the minivan to escape the scene of the murder; then I would build my suspicions using JAR as the primary root and source of contention in this case.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
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  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SarahThePrincess,
    It's third-party information, but it does explain why BlueCrab seemed just to vanish?


    summarising: A PI was hired to ID BlueCrab and he was tracked down via his network address, so with no anonymity he had to retire?

    .
     
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  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    SarahThePrincess,
    Sure, JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms are still missing, and quite possibly her Wednesday DayOfTheWeek Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear.

    .
     
  11. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    More than one male. Maybe a young male who felt no guilt, remorse, or shame? An older male who was sadistic and had done this before? Another kid tied to a family who only valued money and social status?

    Were they like us at all, the people involved in JBR’s murder? Is this why the super rich are super rich?
    They can listen to the death screams of the innocent, and it doesn’t bother them at all? Because they are thinking of how they are going to spend all of that money?
     
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  12. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    W
    Well I have my evil half sister. And corpse for corpse I bet, (even though she hates me; and has thrown me to the wolves more times than I can count) no one will interfere with her steady flow of $$$ and live. They will not mess with me (her $$$$- lolol!). I believe I can freely state my opinion.
     
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  13. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    It is very important to note, the Ramseys did not originally blame an intruder from the beginning or Day zero of what happened. Somewhere between midnight and before they made the 911 call, the Ramseys chose to finger Linda Hoffman-Pugh from the get-go. Sometime that night they realized she was perhaps a natural choice to try and blame LHP(She needed money, was having problems etc.)

    Here I will show you that from the moment French walked in their door, both, JR and PR laid it on thick to French. Within the first hour both John and Patsy gave extensive reasoning to why they suspected LHP killed their daughter.

    Here are some experts from Officer French and Linda Arndt’s official police reports from the morning/day of Dec. 26, 1996:

    Officer French:

    As Mr. Ramsey made preliminary telephone calls to gather the intended amount of money he told me that the only other people with keys to the house were Linda Hoffman-Pugh and two relatives in Atlanta, GA. Ms. Ramsey told me that Linda Hoffman-Pugh had spoken to her on the telephone on the morning of the 24th and asked for a loan of two-thousand dollars. Linda has called later that day and seemed upset about an argument with her sister, and she made plans to come by the Ramseys house while they were out of town and pick up a check that the Ramseys would leave for them.


    When Nedra Paugh, Patricia Ramseys mother, was advised by telephone of the incident, she asked that the officers on the scene be told of Linda Hoffman-Pugh, often commenting on how beautiful JonBenet was and if Ms. Ramsey was concerned that she might be kidnapped. Mrs. Paugh’s comments were relayed to me by (REDACTED).


    These factors related to Linda Hoffman-Pugh were given to DET Arndt and she began to develop background information on Linda.

    Linda Arndt report:

    Patsy woke up this morning and found the suspected ransom note at the bottom of the spiral staircase. Patsy originally thought the note may have been left by the housekeeper.


    I asked Patsy who had keys to her home. Patsy said the woman who was responsible for the housekeeping, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, had a key to her home.


    I asked Patsy if she could think of anyone who might be responsible for JonBenet’s disappearance. Patsy told me that her housekeeper, Linda Pugh, had asked to borrow money on Dec. 24. Patsy told me that she had a Christmas party at her home on Dec 23. Linda, was supposed to clean up from this party on the morning of Dec 24. Linda Pugh had phoned Patsy on the morning of Dec 24. Linda Hoffman asked Patsy if she could borrow some money. Patsy had said yes. Patsy told me she had loaned money to Linda in the past. Linda phoned Patsy again on the afternoon of Dec. 24 Linda was crying. Linda said she needed to borrow $2,000. Patsy thought the money was needed for dental repair for Linda and her family. Patsy told Linda, that she would write a check for $2,000. Patsy said she would leave the check on the kitchen counter. Patsy told me that Linda was scheduled to be at the Ramsey home on Friday morning, Dec 27, at 0900 hours.


    Patsy told me Linda Pugh has worked as her housekeeper for about the past 2 years. Linda cleans the Ramsey home twice a week. Ms. Pugh is paid $200 a week. Patsy told me that Ms. Pugh’s husband (redacted). Patsy provided me with Ms. (redacted) husband’s name. Patsy also supplied me
    with Ms. (redacted) home phone number, (redacted). Patsy further told me that Ms. Pugh’s adult
    children have had problems in the past 2 months. Patsy believed that one of Ms. Pugh’s adult daughters had been in contact with Safe House because of domestic violence problems. Patsy did not
    know the name of this daughter, nor where she lived. Patsy thought the daughter lived in (redacted).
    Patsy thought the adult daughter’s domestic problems might have occurred prior to Thanksgiving of
    1996.


    The pastor told me about a telephone conversation Patsy had had with her mother. Patsy’s
    mother had spoken with the housekeeper, Linda, while Patsy’s mother had been living in the Ramsey home. Ms. Linda Pugh, had reportedly said that JonBenet was so cute that someone would kidnap her. I met with Patsy and asked her about her telephone conversation with her mother. Patsy told me that she had spoken to her mother after she had discovered JonBenet was missing.

    Patsy’s mother is Nedra Paugh. Nedra lives in Atlanta, GA. Nedra Paugh, had told Patsy that Ms. Linda Pugh, had said many times that JonBenet was such a beautiful girl, and wasn’t Patsy afraid that someone was going to kidnap her. Patsy supplied me with Linda Pugh’s home number. This home phone number is (redacted). Det. Patterson was going to follow-up on information regarding Ms. Linda Pugh and her family. Det. Patterson was going to attempt to have US West Communications place a trace on Ms. Linda Pugh’s home phone number.


    John told me that the housekeeper, Linda Pugh, did have a key to the house. Linda Pugh was the only person living in Colorado who had a key to the Ramsey house.


    After Linda Pugh had been named as a possible suspect, I asked John if he had any photos of Linda Pugh in the house. John Ramsey told me that he had a roll of film in his camera. Pictures had been taken of the Christmas party held at the Ramsey home on Dec 23. John told me that Linda had attended that party. I asked John for the film from that camera.


    I asked John if he had any paperwork in the house which might contain Linda Pugh’s handwriting. John checked the kitchen area for any note, but did not locate any. I asked John if he had cancelled checks which had been endorsed by Linda Pugh. John phoned his bank. John was told that the bank did
    have copies of checks which had been written to, and endorsed by, Linda Pugh asked John to have his
    bank fax those checks to me in care of the fax number located at the BPD Detective Bureau.


    I asked Patsy when Linda Pugh was next scheduled to be at their home. Linda was due to be at the Ramsey home at 0900 hours on Friday, Dec 27.


    One of the first things John told me after he came into the living room and had covered JonBenet’s body was, it has to be an inside job. John told me I was right, it had to be someone who knew the family. John told me that no one knows about the wine cellar in the basement, and therefore it has to be an inside job.

    As you can see the Ramseys plan was to pin this on LHP and her family. This is why the Ramseys tell French and Arndt that all doors and windows were locked the night before. This is why JR does not jump and down about the broken basement window. In fact, he did not want police in the basement at all. Wonder why?

    Only after Lou Smit entered the scene a couple months after the murder did the Intruder theory become JR new song and dance.

    One more thing on LHP. Think about this; Patsy called her mother early in the morning on the 26th. She had to of told her mother what happened and that why Nedra called later and Nedra tells the story to the cops about LHP past kidnapping comments. Nedra was in on the cover-up too.


     
  14. questfortrue

    questfortrue Well-Known Member

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    “No forensic evidence” and a missing 3rd bike actually support any number of additional theories - an invited guest like DS, a love child of JR’s who was there for Xmas (seen by Barnhill and looked like JAR), an intruder who entered while the Rs were at the Ws and copied PR’s disguised handwriting and linguistics, a friend of JARs who was hoping to earn additional holiday money . . .

    At one time in speculation about BC's departure from the forums I read a lot of past threads and have only heard one rumor about BC's absence from the forum. In that rumor someone from Jameson’s forum tricked BC into entering Jameson’s WEBBsleuths' forum in order to obtain the IP address. The theory was that the reason for discovery of BC’s identity was to stop his/her posting about the S tenant NI, student at CU and occasional babysitter for DS, BR and JB. (Or perhaps also to stop him posting about DS.) BC was then supposedly threatened by legal action.

    Anyway, in my desire to provide a succinct response, I omitted other thoughts. I don’t necessarily believe all of Kolar’s theory, and I’ll leave it at that.

    One of the additional reasons I’ve not had a ‘bead’ on DS is because the GJ only indicted the adult Rs. The GJ subpoenaed SS to give testimony, and, imho, if they believed and had corroborating evidence SS was assisting the cover-up of her son’s and BR’s involvement, there would have been an accessory after the fact charge against her as well. IMO

    BC didn’t have just one theory. He also implied the basement nanny of the Ss may have been there that night, and perhaps the University group APAC (Asian Pacific American Coalition) was the foreign faction and was involved. Another of his speculations was that kids wrote the RN.

    To twist the quote from Jerry McGuire (“You had me at ‘Hello’”), BC lost me with the idea that the kids, and he specified DS in particular, wrote the RN. Cherokee had the best quash of any such idea. Laying the Foundation For Borg Mentality - Page 3

    I agree a missing 3rd bike is a mystery, but have no idea where that mystery leads.
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    The R's did not need to say an Intruder Did It, the ransom note said that.

    A lot of what JR and PR say, e.g. RN left on the stairs, etc cannot be verified.

    IMO JR and PR just flung LHP under the bus, they knew it would never work, five minutes interviewing LHP would eliminate her, as it transpired.

    PR and JR never left any forensic link between the wine-cellar and LHP, my point is although the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, it was not staged with LHP in mind.

    I agree they suggested LHP as a suspect along with unsubstantiated accusations, but the Ramsey's knew they could never ever pin it on LHP and her family, since there would be no forensic evidence to back it all up, it looks like a JR smoke and mirror job to me.

    The R's knew LHPDI would never ever fly, but they needed a suspect, so she was tossed under the bus, the first of many, including JR's friend Fleet White.

    wrt Lou Smit I've come to wonder if JR's likely apocryphal account of praying with Lou Smit was when JR reverted back to the original staging in the basement, probably with a few choice references flung in?

    So yes the Ramsey's blamed LHP etc, but they never placed her in the wine-cellar, it was all post hoc assumptions, she was just a temporary scapegoat.

    .
     
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  16. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    LHP was the last known person to touch the paint tote. LHP is the last known person to touch Burke’s Swiss Army knife that was found at the murder scene next to JBR body.

    Patsy left the note on the spiral staircase because that is where LHP left notes for her.
     
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  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    questfortrue,
    Sure that the kids authored the RN was nonsense, the APAC speculation along with NI's alleged involvement was eventually shown to have no substance.

    SS reporting BR and DS discussing how JonBenet was murdered does seem to contradict SS covering for DS.

    I've read a few accounts regarding BlueCrab vanishing, that it was via his IP-address seems to be the common factor, whether he was mailed a cease and desist letter or someone whispered in his ear, it was serious enough to prevent him from posting again.

    Foreign Faction by James Kolar, excerpt
    Kolar is definitely alleging that BR was a Sexually Aggressive Child, he's leaving his readers to conclude the case is BDI?

    A supporting fact not mentioned in his book is that at the time of JonBenet's death, JonBenet was regularly attending a therapist.

    Its not just a bike that is missing, JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms are missing, hence the longjohns, some of the Christmas day photographs are missing, and presumably her size-6 Wednesday Bloomingdales, hence the size-12's.

    Is the bike an unimportant detail, duly highlighted by JR for effect,who knows?

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
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  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    Sure but none of that is a Smoking Gun, it's all hearsay and speculation by the Ramsey's just what you might expect if they have to come up with a suspect.

    In other words its just circumstantial evidence, you can make a case that the R's planned to pin it all on LHP, although it looks a pretty weak case to me.

    .
     
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  19. SarahThePrincess

    SarahThePrincess Former Member

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    PR also said ‘They’ killed my baby!
    I think she knew who exactly ‘they’ were. I think that is what Patsy called everyone to her home for. To come up with a plan to protect the 2 or maybe 3 who killed Jonbenet.
    It may have started on the 23rd.
    Whatever happened and to whom and by whom- SS answered the door when the police showed up.
    She may have been clonked in the head on the 23rd. And not feeling well with a concussion?
     
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  20. FY1234

    FY1234 Member

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    Interesting but how would they erase photos from that morning? I believe their camera had film and was not digital.
     

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