Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[carrie]

IIRC, KC's cell ping records for the 17 June do not place her in the vicinity of the A's home, plus AL states in his testimony that they spent that day together at his apartment. So if KC backed into the garage on 3 separate occasions, there must be another date involved.

Hi Devon

Actually, the ping maps do show KC near the A home around 4 pm on the 17th.

As Hercule says, the 18th is shovel day. Brian B. stated to LE that KC backed into the garage on the 17th, and either the 18th or 19th she backed into garage again and borrowed the shovel, but he couldn't remember which day. As the pings show KC near the A's on the 18th but not at all on the 19th - the 18th must be shovel day.

Then BB states she backed in again on the 20th. KC's cell pings near the A's around 1:45 on the 20th.

He states he believes he heard her there on the 23 and saw a green truck and Kc walking into the garage with a guy w/ dark hair. She does ping near the A's on the 23.

Here's a link to BB's statement to LE http://flawebhosting.net/docs092308/bb092308.pdf

The pings maps are all in the analysis forum.

 

[Intermezzo]

I believe June 17 is the date given to LE by Mark Furhman, sorry I can't find the link but I saw it in the last few days...

Hi Devon

Actually, the ping maps do show KC near the A home around 4 pm on the 17th.

As Hercule says, the 18th is shovel day. Brian B. stated to LE that KC backed into the garage on the 17th, and either the 18th or 19th she backed into garage again and borrowed the shovel, but he couldn't remember which day. As the pings show KC near the A's on the 18th but not at all on the 19th - the 18th must be shovel day.

Then BB states she backed in again on the 20th. KC's cell pings near the A's around 1:45 on the 20th.

He states he believes he heard her there on the 23 and saw a green truck and Kc walking into the garage with a guy w/ dark hair. She does ping near the A's on the 23.

Here's a link to BB's statement to LE http://flawebhosting.net/docs092308/bb092308.pdf

The pings maps are all in the analysis forum.

Was she trying to stage a drowing with the ladder incident? The body was placed on the ground in the A's backyard during that time. Then quickly decided not good and forgot to put the ladder back?

 

[Devon]

Hi Devon

Actually, the ping maps do show KC near the A home around 4 pm on the 17th.

As Hercule says, the 18th is shovel day. Brian B. stated to LE that KC backed into the garage on the 17th, and either the 18th or 19th she backed into garage again and borrowed the shovel, but he couldn't remember which day. As the pings show KC near the A's on the 18th but not at all on the 19th - the 18th must be shovel day.

Then BB states she backed in again on the 20th. KC's cell pings near the A's around 1:45 on the 20th.

He states he believes he heard her there on the 23 and saw a green truck and Kc walking into the garage with a guy w/ dark hair. She does ping near the A's on the 23.

Here's a link to BB's statement to LE http://flawebhosting.net/docs092308/bb092308.pdf

The pings maps are all in the analysis forum.

Thanks Carrie

 

[Skully]

Hi Devon

Actually, the ping maps do show KC near the A home around 4 pm on the 17th.

As Hercule says, the 18th is shovel day. Brian B. stated to LE that KC backed into the garage on the 17th, and either the 18th or 19th she backed into garage again and borrowed the shovel, but he couldn't remember which day. As the pings show KC near the A's on the 18th but not at all on the 19th - the 18th must be shovel day.

Then BB states she backed in again on the 20th. KC's cell pings near the A's around 1:45 on the 20th.

He states he believes he heard her there on the 23 and saw a green truck and Kc walking into the garage with a guy w/ dark hair. She does ping near the A's on the 23.

Here's a link to BB's statement to LE http://flawebhosting.net/docs092308/bb092308.pdf

The pings maps are all in the analysis forum.

So now the big question, can Toney say if the duct tape was on that can??? Boy I hope he saw it cause if not, JB and team will say it was put there to frame KC when she had the cans in the car.... trust me.

 

[BondJamesBond]

So now the big question, can Toney say if the duct tape was on that can??? Boy I hope he saw it cause if not, JB and team will say it was put there to frame KC when she had the cans in the car.... trust me.

...not an answer...but, an observation, FWIW, Tony held the cans for Casey while she poured the gas from the cans into the Pontiac 6/23.

I believe I saw a post where JWG commented that perhaps the tape was on the can to cover the vent hole (e.g. OEM cap lost).

The good news is that, while Tony didn't pour the gas into the Pontiac, he WAS directly engaged in the activity, and Casey would've had to remove the tape from the vent hole (if this was indeed the purpose it was serving) to pour in the gas. IIRC, the Laurel & Hardy ride-around interview w/ Tony regarding 6/23 was performed well before the body was discovered, hence, the presence/absence of the tape on the cans didn't enter into the questioning at that time. They were obviously focused on whether or not Tony observed the contents of the trunk, or any odor.

 

[TexasLil]

*Snipped

Laurel & Hardy ride-around interview

LMAO. You made my day with that one!!!

:floorlaugh:

 

[BondJamesBond]

We don't have any info released on cause of death and because of the state of the remains, direct evidence is unlikely. So "suffocation" has to be a guess?
I have trouble fitting Caylee's death being that early into a time line which includes 3 days that the body was in the trunk and disposal or rebagging of the body. If Caylee was dead before KC left GACA home on 16th, then she had to be messing about with the body on 19th and I think phone evidence has her not at GACA house 19th, so body re=arranging would need to be done with car exposed near AL apt, rather than out of sight in GACA garage. Also I think that day KC was driving AL's jeep?

...agree w/ everything here HP, 'ceptin' the bold part (by me)...

IMHO, there are at least two periods of cell inactivity on the afternoon of 6/19 that would've permitted Casey to seek cover at places other than Tony's apt. to perform bagging maneuvers. I wouldn't rule out Tony's apt. parking lot as a candidate...or remote area in JBPark...or Oviedo House...or...

IMHO, we need a little better info to nail down Casey's possession of the Jeep. We know she showed up @ Chris' in it...so we know there is a block of time she has to be associated w/ the Jeep, but, that doesn't preclude her using the Pontiac before or after that visit.

A detail that Bern will appreciate is thinking about the bagging sequence and the stain on the trunk mat. If the unbagged body lay on the mat and resulted in the stain...then a bagged body placed back into the Pontiac trunk onto the same mat (unlikely Casey woulda been mindfull 'bout avoiding it) woulda resulted in decomp contact with the outside bottom of that same bag. The sequence of bagging starts to make my head spin...perhaps threadworthy to muddle through the options since I've prolly seen the 3*2*1= all 6 possible combinations of their order suggested. Anyway...I happened to be handling some black plastic bags full of ~40lbs of stuff over the weekend and was thinking that Casey woulda tried to avoid actually handling the body/load in the bag in favor of trying to just lift it outta the trunk by the gathered top. Lifting this type of load outta the trunk it would've been very likely IMHO that the decomp contaminated bottom of the bag would've come in contact w/ Casey's (now laundered :furious pants as the weight tends to elongate the bag. This contact seems less likely if the laundry bag was on the outside and if it had some handles with which to tote it. Combine all of this with my finding it hard to believe Casey would look on Caylee's body post-mortem...blowfly activity engaging...and all. She HAD to handle the body to some extent 6/17...perhaps wrapped in the blanket. Then handling got complicated. Recall the body had to remain in stain-generating-direct-or-indirect-contact-with-the-mat mode until at least 6/19'ish...OR you hafta buy a 'spill/tear' during the final bagging procedure 6/19'ish. Backing into the garage would've facilitate a transfer into the handy laundry bag 6/17...but, that would require handling the body AGAIN 6/19'ish IF the laundry bag was exterior to the other 2 bags. Placing the body into the plastic bag(s) pre-6/19 means you hafta buy a 'spill/tear' episode.

None of the above addressed the possible use of the blue crate...

Too many degrees of freedom for my brain to work out here...gimme a hand? Threadworthy?

 

[Rumpole]

So now the big question, can Toney say if the duct tape was on that can??? Boy I hope he saw it cause if not, JB and team will say it was put there to frame KC when she had the cans in the car.... trust me.

LE had the cans early on and checked for finger prints and took swabs. Then they GAVE THEM BACK to CA.(8/13/08)
No mention of Duct tape then.
Can anybody testify to seeing the tape?
FOUR months passed between gas cans given back and collected with tape on. I believe I recall Lee borrowed them (but can not confirm) and who knows who had access?

PS I just remembered there was a picture/ video on or around the day the cans were retuned to CA which showed the tape. As BJB would say: Soooooooo..... at least it can be confirmed that the tape was on the can early on and not put on the can during the 4 months that the Gas Can was out on bail.

 

[JWG]

LE had the cans early on and checked for finger prints and took swabs. Then they GAVE THEM BACK to CA.(8/13/08)
No mention of Duct tape then.
Can anybody testify to seeing the tape?
FOUR months passed between gas cans given back and collected with tape on. I believe I recall Lee borrowed them (but can not confirm) and who knows who had access?

PS I just remembered there was a picture/ video on or around the day the cans were retuned to CA which showed the tape. As BJB would say: Soooooooo..... at least it can be confirmed that the tape was on the can early on and not put on the can during the 4 months that the Gas Can was out on bail.

Here's the picture from a news video taken Aug. 6:



Same gas can, same tape over vent hole.

 

[Skully]

...agree w/ everything here HP, 'ceptin' the bold part (by me)...

IMHO, there are at least two periods of cell inactivity on the afternoon of 6/19 that would've permitted Casey to seek cover at places other than Tony's apt. to perform bagging maneuvers. I wouldn't rule out Tony's apt. parking lot as a candidate...or remote area in JBPark...or Oviedo House...or...

IMHO, we need a little better info to nail down Casey's possession of the Jeep. We know she showed up @ Chris' in it...so we know there is a block of time she has to be associated w/ the Jeep, but, that doesn't preclude her using the Pontiac before or after that visit.

A detail that Bern will appreciate is thinking about the bagging sequence and the stain on the trunk mat. If the unbagged body lay on the mat and resulted in the stain...then a bagged body placed back into the Pontiac trunk onto the same mat (unlikely Casey woulda been mindfull 'bout avoiding it) woulda resulted in decomp contact with the outside bottom of that same bag. The sequence of bagging starts to make my head spin...perhaps threadworthy to muddle through the options since I've prolly seen the 3*2*1= all 6 possible combinations of their order suggested. Anyway...I happened to be handling some black plastic bags full of ~40lbs of stuff over the weekend and was thinking that Casey woulda tried to avoid actually handling the body/load in the bag in favor of trying to just lift it outta the trunk by the gathered top. Lifting this type of load outta the trunk it would've been very likely IMHO that the decomp contaminated bottom of the bag would've come in contact w/ Casey's (now laundered :furious pants as the weight tends to elongate the bag. This contact seems less likely if the laundry bag was on the outside and if it had some handles with which to tote it. Combine all of this with my finding it hard to believe Casey would look on Caylee's body post-mortem...blowfly activity engaging...and all. She HAD to handle the body to some extent 6/17...perhaps wrapped in the blanket. Then handling got complicated. Recall the body had to remain in stain-generating-direct-or-indirect-contact-with-the-mat mode until at least 6/19'ish...OR you hafta buy a 'spill/tear' during the final bagging procedure 6/19'ish. Backing into the garage would've facilitate a transfer into the handy laundry bag 6/17...but, that would require handling the body AGAIN 6/19'ish IF the laundry bag was exterior to the other 2 bags. Placing the body into the plastic bag(s) pre-6/19 means you hafta buy a 'spill/tear' episode.

None of the above addressed the possible use of the blue crate...

Too many degrees of freedom for my brain to work out here...gimme a hand? Threadworthy?

Now we are sleuthing here, as you know I am in the favor of the O house as the first stop to hid the body; very secluded and empty. I also think it may have been a re-bagging; staging, place as well. I fully get the picture you have painted and well done, I hadn't really thought of how the pants got the decomposition on them other than the bag broke as she was putting the body in the trunk to take her to Suburban. I just think all of the re-bagging is really a risk if it was done at the A's, she could have had someone walk up or come home and catch her. So the O house gives much more cover if you will. I can see how this may have taken place as you described above. I am not sure what she used the crate for other than to hull her stuff to Toney's place. At any rate, she was in such a hurry she forgot to toss Caylee's favorite doll. Any kidnapper would have at least done that much.

 

[Skully]

Here's the picture from a news video taken Aug. 6:

View attachment 3420

Same gas can, same tape over vent hole.

Thanks again, JWG,

So the cans have the tape lets say June 24th and still there August 6. Now we know Caylee probably died June 16th, and we think the tape was applied on that day or near to the 16th. So if we believe she was murdered at the house, the tape was in the home, same as the gas cans, with that tape. LE searches the home July 15th? They don't know at the time the tape is part of the crime, (body not found until Dec 11th) so cans are returned Without tape as we know they are a match to tape at scene. So the body is discovered Dec 11th with the tape that matches tape on gas cans, what am I messing up here, I am off on the date they took cans??? Also LE never found any duct tape in the week long search of Dec 11th. That is odd there isn't any tape, but no one had any idea that it was crucial until the body was found.

 

[Lady Loves Lurking]

Has decomp on pants been confirmed? How would you explain that?!

 

[Rumpole]

...agree w/ everything here HP, 'ceptin' the bold part (by me)...

*SNIP*
None of the above addressed the possible use of the blue crate...

Too many degrees of freedom for my brain to work out here...gimme a hand? Threadworthy? Bold by me

I accept some opportunities on 19th and I meant general neck of the woods, not just AL appt. (As opposed to the relative seclusion of the GACA garage)

Also NOT addressed is the kitchen knife!

 

[AZlawyer]

Thanks again, JWG,

So the cans have the tape lets say June 24th and still there August 6. Now we know Caylee probably died June 16th, and we think the tape was applied on that day or near to the 16th. So if we believe she was murdered at the house, the tape was in the home, same as the gas cans, with that tape. LE searches the home July 15th? They don't know at the time the tape is part of the crime, (body not found until Dec 11th) so cans are returned Without tape as we know they are a match to tape at scene. So the body is discovered Dec 11th with the tape that matches tape on gas cans, what am I messing up here, I am off on the date they took cans??? Also LE never found any duct tape in the week long search of Dec 11th. That is odd there isn't any tape, but no one had any idea that it was crucial until the body was found.

Why do you say the cans were returned without tape?

 

[Skully]

I just got it, LE noticed that tape in July, but didn't know it was part of the crime scene, and in Dec they go back and collect the cans....and the tape is still on them.

 

[Skully]

Has decomp on pants been confirmed? How would you explain that?!

CA told LE that she washed the pants as they smelled like the car, which they could have, just being in the car in the heat, locked up at the tow yard. We thought that there could have been decomposition on the pants because of the statement she made about the smell.

 

[jon_burrows]

Wow.. thanks for sharing this. It has been my theory that Casey suffocated Caylee in the home.

That's my theory as well. There is no way to prove it but I think she put the duct tape over Caylee's mouth (possible nose too), wrapped her body tightly in the pooh blanket so Caylee couldn't remove the tape or struggle, then placed a pillow or some object over her face for several minutes---until Caylee was no longer moving. Then she met up with Tony to rent movies.

 

[Skully]

I guess what I am driving at is that if the cans didn't have that tape on them or proof of it prior to KC and TL taking the cans, one could say that someone other that KC put the tape on Caylee and also the can. Highly unlikely but one could say that.

 

[Rumpole]

I guess what I am driving at is that if the cans didn't have that tape on them or proof of it prior to KC and TL taking the cans, one could say that someone other that KC put the tape on Caylee and also the can. Highly unlikely but one could say that.

It seems the tape with "henkel" is rare, in fact we only KNOW of three places it can be confirmed.
1. Remains site. Piece on skull (and other pieces?)

2.On GACA gas can

3.On one roll reported by WSer amongst hundreds of samples reported as not having that logo

The WSer is unrelated to this case, so we already have a significant link between the remains (and the murder since tape attached to body) and the GACA home. I think realistically that means link to KC, but they could hang all 4 of them just to be sure?

The statistical link for tape with logo is significant, but it would be hoped that FBI labs have found additional foresic links.

 

[ibyoungr]

That's my theory as well. There is no way to prove it but I think she put the duct tape over Caylee's mouth (possible nose too), wrapped her body tightly in the pooh blanket so Caylee couldn't remove the tape or struggle, then placed a pillow or some object over her face for several minutes---until Caylee was no longer moving. Then she met up with Tony to rent movies.

Within a minute Caylee would have passed out. Now.. there is a possiblity, IMO that she could have given her some medicine to make her really drowsy and as not to wake up while she was suffocating her.

I just keep seeing that look on Casey's face at the Aug 14th jail meeting. If she can get like that talking to her parents.. think about how she could get if Caylee was bugging her while she was texting, on the computer, planning an evening out...under pressure to rent a place with Amy...

I think Casey also had seen the look that Cindy gave at the depo many, many times in her life.

Quick burst of raging anger then alot of sweethearts.. and I'm sorries.