Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[deerpack2003]

According to the Spaghetti Factory website there are no locations in Florida.

The Oviedo Marketplace Mall would also be a mall close to the Seminole County Line.

 

[Marina2]

Thanks BJB. I did read it all the way through so that physician tx may be necessary. :crazy:

Seriously though...you've brought out some interesting points. Particularly, the part about KC never leaving the house at all that day. Also, I'll have to go looking for GA's work schedule the week prior. I never heard anything about him going to work at noon except in LA's interview. The detective stated that Lee was "all over it" so that made me think he was genuinely trying to get to the bottom of things with some real facts.
Regardless, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do now in the analysis threads....I may need ongoing treatment!

 

[Searchfortruth]

I don't understand why Casey would put duct tape around Caylee's mouth to stop fluids from coming out when she had put her in two trash bags and a material type canvas bag. Now the state has said the DP was brought back because after the remains were found they discovered sufficient aggravating circumstances to warrant the DP...

"Those circumstances include: that the killing was heinous, atrocious, cruel or depraved, involved substantial planning and premeditation, was committed without pretense of moral or legal justification, was committed by a person with previous felonies, or happened while another felony was being committed."

My "guess" is the duct tape played a role in the decision to bring the DP back, but I will have to wait for the trial to know for sure.

 

[BondJamesBond]

According to the Spaghetti Factory website there are no locations in Florida.

*snipped*

Thanks, DP. That's 'cuz I shoulda typed "Cheesecake" instead of "Spagetti" :doh: I corrected my original post.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thanks BJB. I did read it all the way through so that physician tx may be necessary. :crazy:

Seriously though...you've brought out some interesting points. Particularly, the part about KC never leaving the house at all that day. Also, I'll have to go looking for GA's work schedule the week prior. I never heard anything about him going to work at noon except in LA's interview. The detective stated that Lee was "all over it" so that made me think he was genuinely trying to get to the bottom of things with some real facts.
Regardless, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do now in the analysis threads....I may need ongoing treatment!

:laugh: I'll save a cell for you next to mine @ the sanitorium, Marina. What size straight-jacket do you need? Unfortunatley, they only come in white. :crazy:

Interesting point 'bout going in @ Noon. George made some comments in his FBI interview, IIRC, 'bout going in early & working late sometimes, esp. @ the end of the month (of June). So, its not out of the question that George would (a) work on a day off, or (b) go in early. The timecards are the only real hope I have of shedding light on the situation of 6/13. Be happy for someone to clue us in if they've got those records handy.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I don't understand why Casey would put duct tape around Caylee's mouth to stop fluids from coming out when she had put her in two trash bags and a material type canvas bag.

*snipped*

:wave: Hi, Search.

I'm guessing you are referring to JWG's more recent post 'bout stemming decomp fluid and the stain on the carpet. If so, I read his post as suggesting that the tape was done prior to/in preparation for the bagging. IOW...(inserting what I'm imagining he's suggesting here) Casey observes decomp coming from the mouth :cry: upon opening the trunk. Casey doesn't want to risk going outside and must go through the house to get to the backyard. So, before going through the house and risking some dripping decomp fluid, Casey applies the duct tape. Perhaps at this point the body is merely wrapped in the WTP blanket. Upon getting to the back porch door the body is set down on the green rug briefly (perhaps while Casey goes out, borrows the shovel, etc., or perhaps only long enough to get the door unlocked and through it. All of the above happens before the body is bagged whilst in the backyard.

There are many, many variations on the when/where bagged, esp. when you consider that the body could've gone through combinations. For example, originally in the Whitney laundry bag to be carried through the house (not leakproof) then subsequently bagged in plastic, once or twice. Then the plastic-bagged body being placed back into the Whitney bag. And it really gets problematic if you consider that bags might not have been completely sealed OR there could've been a slight tear. IOW...a basic premise we've been using is that the Accumulated Degree Day decomp clock stops when the body is bagged. This would NOT be true if there was a pathway for leakage from the bag(s).

Again, not trying to advance a particular detail...just hoping to clarify what I think I've read. HTH.

 

[Searchfortruth]

*snipped*

:wave: Hi, Search.

I'm guessing you are referring to JWG's more recent post 'bout stemming decomp fluid and the stain on the carpet. If so, I read his post as suggesting that the tape was done prior to/in preparation for the bagging. IOW...(inserting what I'm imagining he's suggesting here) Casey observes decomp coming from the mouth :cry: upon opening the trunk. Casey doesn't want to risk going outside and must go through the house to get to the backyard. So, before going through the house and risking some dripping decomp fluid, Casey applies the duct tape. Perhaps at this point the body is merely wrapped in the WTP blanket. Upon getting to the back porch door the body is set down on the green rug briefly (perhaps while Casey goes out, borrows the shovel, etc., or perhaps only long enough to get the door unlocked and through it. All of the above happens before the body is bagged whilst in the backyard.

There are many, many variations on the when/where bagged, esp. when you consider that the body could've gone through combinations. For example, originally in the Whitney laundry bag to be carried through the house (not leakproof) then subsequently bagged in plastic, once or twice. Then the plastic-bagged body being placed back into the Whitney bag. And it really gets problematic if you consider that bags might not have been completely sealed OR there could've been a slight tear. IOW...a basic premise we've been using is that the Accumulated Degree Day decomp clock stops when the body is bagged. This would NOT be true if there was a pathway for leakage from the bag(s).

Again, not trying to advance a particular detail...just hoping to clarify what I think I've read. HTH.

Hi BJB ! Thank you very much for the clarification on this. So many possible scenarios here.

The duct tape issue is one that keeps me wondering and I really wish we knew the answer to this one...my patience is wearing thin. In my mind, there is a huge differance between placing the DT after death and placing it prior to death, as far as the heinous nature of the crime goes.

 

[countzero]

*snipped*

:wave: Hi, Search.

I'm guessing you are referring to JWG's more recent post 'bout stemming decomp fluid and the stain on the carpet. If so, I read his post as suggesting that the tape was done prior to/in preparation for the bagging. IOW...(inserting what I'm imagining he's suggesting here) Casey observes decomp coming from the mouth :cry: upon opening the trunk. Casey doesn't want to risk going outside and must go through the house to get to the backyard. So, before going through the house and risking some dripping decomp fluid, Casey applies the duct tape. Perhaps at this point the body is merely wrapped in the WTP blanket. Upon getting to the back porch door the body is set down on the green rug briefly (perhaps while Casey goes out, borrows the shovel, etc., or perhaps only long enough to get the door unlocked and through it. All of the above happens before the body is bagged whilst in the backyard.

There are many, many variations on the when/where bagged, esp. when you consider that the body could've gone through combinations. For example, originally in the Whitney laundry bag to be carried through the house (not leakproof) then subsequently bagged in plastic, once or twice. Then the plastic-bagged body being placed back into the Whitney bag. And it really gets problematic if you consider that bags might not have been completely sealed OR there could've been a slight tear. IOW...a basic premise we've been using is that the Accumulated Degree Day decomp clock stops when the body is bagged. This would NOT be true if there was a pathway for leakage from the bag(s).

Again, not trying to advance a particular detail...just hoping to clarify what I think I've read. HTH.

I really shied away from the forensic evidence when it first was disclosed. Too painful, even now. But one needs to get past it to confirm what exactly happened. Was any forensic testing done for decomp on all the bags Caylee was wrapped in? Hope I asked this correctly.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I really shied away from the forensic evidence when it first was disclosed. Too painful, even now. But one needs to get past it to confirm what exactly happened. Was any forensic testing done for decomp on all the bags Caylee was wrapped in? Hope I asked this correctly.

In really, really round numbers in the neighorhood of 100 pieces of black plastic (sometimes single pieces, sometimes a group of pieces) were submitted to the FBI for testing. Hope that answers the "any" part of the question. JWG might be able to comment on specifically what types of testing were included.

 

[JWG]

In really, really round numbers in the neighorhood of 100 pieces of black plastic (sometimes single pieces, sometimes a group of pieces) were submitted to the FBI for testing. Hope that answers the "any" part of the question. JWG might be able to comment on specifically what types of testing were included.

The testing on the black plastic and in particular the garbage bags found at the crime scene was limited to determining if they matched the black trash bags taken from the Anthony home. Same with the laundry bag found at the crime scene. There really was no point in testing the crime scene bags for decomp, as Caylee's remains were found in and with the bags. On top of that, decomp fluids would have washed away after that much time in the swamp.

The stain found on the screen-porch rug was sent off for decomp testing and we have not seen the results of that testing. Maybe tomorrow?

 

[piratemom]

You don't suppose KC decapitated Caylee??? And the duct tape was to try and put the head back? We do know that the skull was not attached, that there was duct tape wrapped around some part of the head and that the latest news is the autopsy report will cause great anguish????

 

[Reagan]

The testing on the black plastic and in particular the garbage bags found at the crime scene was limited to determining if they matched the black trash bags taken from the Anthony home. Same with the laundry bag found at the crime scene. There really was no point in testing the crime scene bags for decomp, as Caylee's remains were found in and with the bags. On top of that, decomp fluids would have washed away after that much time in the swamp.

The stain found on the screen-porch rug was sent off for decomp testing and we have not seen the results of that testing. Maybe tomorrow?

Apparantly I missed this one. Which doc dump can I find the info about the rug?

 

[piratemom]

Bump!

Anyone think this theory could be correct?

 

[Ripley007]

BJBOND-I LOVE Most of JWG's posts (and Yours!), but, as a woman, and as a Mother, I can't imagine or see KC carrying her Dead Daughter through the house UNexposed. Wrapped inside of a blanket (WTPooh?), then, yes, maybe, I can see it. But bare and exposed....I challenge you to find even 5 (mother) peeps here who would agree that they could see this scenerio happening.
I live in a rural Farm House with 3 cats. When I learn that one of them has captured a mouse, I retreive it immediatly. It's really gross. But NOT as gross as finding out days later that there is a dead mouse in my house. Stinky, gross, and decompossing...

 

[okiedokietoo]

do we know if there was any evidence of broken bones, hairline fractures? I remember Dr. G saying something about no trauma but could that be limited to cut marks or animal marks or crushed bones?

 

[Marina2]

BJBOND-I LOVE Most of JWG's posts (and Yours!), but, as a woman, and as a Mother, I can't imagine or see KC carrying her Dead Daughter through the house UNexposed. Wrapped inside of a blanket (WTPooh?), then, yes, maybe, I can see it. But bare and exposed....I challenge you to find even 5 (mother) peeps here who would agree that they could see this scenerio happening.
I live in a rural Farm House with 3 cats. When I learn that one of them has captured a mouse, I retreive it immediatly. It's really gross. But NOT as gross as finding out days later that there is a dead mouse in my house. Stinky, gross, and decompossing...

Ripley, I can fully understand what you mean.
What I couldn't do, as a woman and a mother, is wrap my arms around my daughter's lifeless body to carry her through the house. To do that would require more than just a hand hold. It would mean a tight grip around her body. The feeling and horror of that would be incomprehensible to me. To actually feel her in my arms like that... nope, couldn't do it. I'm a nurse and the bloodiest, deepest lacerations don't phase me. I can clean them up, irrigate them and prep for sutures without feeling anything. But, one drop of blood coming from my own child or grandchild and I go absolutely limp.

With that in mind, if I had to get her to the backyard via the house, I could picture myself getting the rug off the porch and taking it to the garage. I would place her body on it and drag it through the house and out to the yard. Finding I couldn't bury her as planned, I would then drag her back to the garage to place her back into the trunk. This is the point where I might notice the stain for the first time in the trunk and on the rug. With the adrenalin and all from attempting to bury my child in the backyard without being seen, I might not notice it at first. Also, I would have taken her from the trunk and put her on the rug, blanket and all, while trying my best not to look at her lifeless body.
My mind would then go to the mess I'd made on my mother's rug and in the trunk and I would decide to put her in trash bags before returning her to the trunk. I might even get out that little green machine LE took into evidence and do a quick spot cleaning on the rug.

Like BJB said, there are many combinations of the yard, bagging, and trunk sequence. I've run plenty through my mind and the problem with them is that, however different, many seem to work with known evidence. The one above takes into account how a woman and mother feels about "gross" things and includes the rug with the stain. As a side note, I think Caylee left that house with the duct tape and heart sticker in place and wrapped in the blanket. I don't think KC ever looked at Caylee again after she was wrapped in that blanket..

 

[BondJamesBond]

BJBOND-I LOVE Most of JWG's posts (and Yours!), but, as a woman, and as a Mother, I can't imagine or see KC carrying her Dead Daughter through the house UNexposed.

*snipped*

Thanks, Ripley, I appreciate the kind words and understand exactly what you're sayin'. I certainly can't speak for JWG, but, after months of trying to wrap our heads around the possiblities I think I can say he's not trying to advance this specific theory...just offering up one more in a long series of possibilities to consider.

Like BJB said, there are many combinations of the yard, bagging, and trunk sequence. I've run plenty through my mind and the problem with them is that, however different, many seem to work with known evidence. The one above takes into account how a woman and mother feels about "gross" things and includes the rug with the stain. As a side note, I think Caylee left that house with the duct tape and heart sticker in place and wrapped in the blanket. I don't think KC ever looked at Caylee again after she was wrapped in that blanket..

*snipped & bold by me*

Marina, esp. re: bolded above. I've proven time & time again that my thinking is a pretty poor model for Casey-think. But, hafta share that my personal instinct is precisely in line w/ yours here - that Casey never looked on Caylee again.

I will share that the question above about testing on black plastic took me to something I hadn't noticed before that I believe would fit Casey's m.o. I'll be posting that on the Crime Scene thread shortly.

 

[countzero]

BJB, thank you so much for all the insights you, JWG and others have so clearly given the rest of us. I have to utmost respect for all who take the painstaking time to go back and review info and give a change of perspective to our questions.

I do believe it is good to see and read new posts that might open possibilities to our past thinking of how Caylee passed and what KC was doing at any given time.

Like others, I believe the info from where Caylee was found and how she was found gave the SA cause to re-file the DP and you and other WS's will put all the info together in a way a lay person such as I am can clearly understand it all.

The why is a deep troubling question that I don't ever believe will accurately be answered.

The testing on the black plastic really is intriguing for me. Can't wait until I read your post.

 

[JWG]

I have not noticed this discussed on the board, but the charge details in the criminal case docket filed on October 14 show an offense date of June 15, not June 16. AFAIK, this is what the prosecution originally filed. A [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2899503&postcount=410"]post[/ame] waaaaay back on Nov. 4 by tennisgirlsc asked specifically about this, but given that it was a pretty busy day for posting, her question seems to have been overlooked.

By October 14 when the charges were filed and the final arrest made, the investigation was 3 months old, lots of interviews had already taken place and the cell logs had been endlessly studied. So one would think the prosecution would record a date they had confidence in, right? :waitasec:



Just to note, the original charge on July 16 incorrectly listed the offense date as July 9 - they meant June 9, which is what they were led to believe at the time.

 

[cecybeans]

I have not noticed this discussed on the board, but the charge details in the criminal case docket filed on October 14 show an offense date of June 15, not June 16. AFAIK, this is what the prosecution originally filed. A post waaaaay back on Nov. 4 by tennisgirlsc asked specifically about this, but given that it was a pretty busy day for posting, her question seems to have been overlooked.

By October 14 when the charges were filed and the final arrest made, the investigation was 3 months old, lots of interviews had already taken place and the cell logs had been endlessly studied. So one would think the prosecution would record a date they had confidence in, right? :waitasec:

View attachment 4151

Just to note, the original charge on July 16 incorrectly listed the offense date as July 9 - they meant June 9, which is what they were led to believe at the time.

Could this have been because, despite GA's detailed description of seeing Caylee on June 16th, his credibility (as that of the other Anthony family) may be suspect or influenced by ulterior motives - so that LE made the prudent decision in October that, for all intents and purposes, the last actual date she was seen that was verifiable by an outside source was June 15th?