"Theories only" - thread

[Shinichi_Kudo]

She was possibly playing a game with another person in the hotel (hence she casually gets on the elevator). She hits all the middle buttons, one being the floor she was on I believe, which caused the elevator to get stuck (that elevator has probably been there since at least the 80s of not earlier). She starts to have a panic attack of sorts (probably due to the lack of taking her Meds) which explains her odd behavior outside the elevator.

She must have met up with the second party and they decided to go to the roof. Since she didn’t think the elevator worked she takes the fire escape (from what I gathered from the Netflix show is the k9’s lead them to a window where the fire escape was on the 5th floor, which was the same floor she was staying on).

The second party was probably familiar with the roof because they had to have used a later to get into the tank. She probably got in first naked and went into shock from the water causing her to drown. The second party probably freaked out throw everything she had into the tank with her, the second party probably had some sort of record and didn’t want to get caught up in her death. They probably also were a long term resident.

I believe she most likely did all this willingly, though I wouldn’t rule out foul play.

 

[glamourkitty1922]

She was possibly playing a game with another person in the hotel (hence she casually gets on the elevator). She hits all the middle buttons, one being the floor she was on I believe, which caused the elevator to get stuck (that elevator has probably been there since at least the 80s of not earlier). She starts to have a panic attack of sorts (probably due to the lack of taking her Meds) which explains her odd behavior outside the elevator.

She must have met up with the second party and they decided to go to the roof. Since she didn’t think the elevator worked she takes the fire escape (from what I gathered from the Netflix show is the k9’s lead them to a window where the fire escape was on the 5th floor, which was the same floor she was staying on).

The second party was probably familiar with the roof because they had to have used a later to get into the tank. She probably got in first naked and went into shock from the water causing her to drown. The second party probably freaked out throw everything she had into the tank with her, the second party probably had some sort of record and didn’t want to get caught up in her death. They probably also were a long term resident.

I believe she most likely did all this willingly, though I wouldn’t rule out foul play.

The elevator wasn't stuck, it was working properly. She hit the door hold button which is there so people can load the elevator without it taking off on them when they have a lot of luggage or belongings.

 

[mitzy]

If Elisa was exploring the hotel and decided to go up on the roof, what if she got into the tank accidentally? Everyone thinks she went for a swim. But when she was found, the hatch was opened. Meaning it could've been opened when she went in. She was up there at night, bad visibility, maybe she accidentally stepped into the hole and fell down into the water. Then she removed her clothing because swimming without is easier. And then she drowned.

What I don't understand is why the police never checked the tanks on their first search. They went up there with a helicopter above to give them light and they didn't find anything. why didn't they check the tanks? When you're at a potential crime scene, every barrel, tank, dumpster should be checked. IMO

 

[cat2234]

If Elisa was exploring the hotel and decided to go up on the roof, what if she got into the tank accidentally? Everyone thinks she went for a swim. But when she was found, the hatch was opened. Meaning it could've been opened when she went in. She was up there at night, bad visibility, maybe she accidentally stepped into the hole and fell down into the water. Then she removed her clothing because swimming without is easier. And then she drowned.

What I don't understand is why the police never checked the tanks on their first search. They went up there with a helicopter above to give them light and they didn't find anything. why didn't they check the tanks? When you're at a potential crime scene, every barrel, tank, dumpster should be checked. IMO

that was what I was thinking about too if you had a helicopter flying above and you didn't see that one of the tanks were open... its so strange. also I question that I feel like It needed to be answered was why in the video footage is there a foot in the bottom corner that doesn't look like her shoes at all..

 

[Texashorn]

Could anyone kindly answer these Qs the Netflix doc didn’t address. Feel free to correct anything inaccurate, I’m going off of memory.
No one asked how she got up to the 14th floor, unseen by any cameras? The only footage of her is entering an elevator from the 14th floor. She either climbed 10 flights of stairs (her room was on 4), or used another elevator that was without camera (or had a broken camera). If a security camera could be left inoperable, could a rooftop alarm also go unarmed? Either way, it creates an “access artery” for someone(s) to be around her unseen by cameras. If there was an elevator without an operational security camera that means anyone from outside the hotel could enter and leave unseen. How is that there isn’t more footage of her, she was there for so many days never using the elevator? Clearly she was having a psychotic episode in the footage, which as pointed out by LAPD, renders her more vulnerable to being attacked/threatened, even more so if she was causing loud disturbances in the hotel, making her presence known. The situation she was in, was definitely risky for multiple crime scenarios. Ask any streetwise female who’s ever traveled alone, Ms. Lam was open to several dangerous hypotheticals. We have no proof that the door to the roof was ever alarmed, just hearsay from the Manager. Ms. Lam could have been coaxed there or hiding from someone(s). She could have been murdered WHILE battling a psychotic episode. Said otherwise, having a psychotic episode does not rule out murder. Here’s what doesn’t jive. I grew up scuba diving with my mother, when I was 13 I nearly had hypothermia from diving in a lake in February, my lips turned dark purple. I can say with authority, when in bone-cold water, one does not experience an overwhelming desire to strip off every garment of clothing! I laughed out loud when he said that! My fingers couldn’t operate my BC vest, I lost dexterity from the cold. Further, gentlemen, it takes a lot of dexterity to remove one’s panties while swimming. They don’t slip off, they roll up into a tangled bunch when pushed too fast down the thigh. Her clothes came off BEFORE she went into the tank. (Sigh.. we need more female detectives) So, why would she throw her clothes in the tank before jumping in? Also, trial lawyers will tell you toxicology reports are REGULARLY disputed in court. They are subject to error, (eg “It was an 8, not a 5!”) Any trial lawyer would challenge that the body was submerged in bacterial infested water for many days, badly decomposing, can’t trust the integrity of a rape kit! “She wasn’t bruised” Yes, she was having a psychotic episode and could be easily overpowered without much force. One person couldn’t lift a body climbing those ladders. Two people could, or she could have been coaxed under duress.
I don’t buy the conspiracies. The Stay On Main barely had the budget for new sheets, let alone a tech savvy film editor on staff. The police botched the initial search, rookie mistake to not check the water tanks. I doubt they could execute a flawless conspiracy.

I don’t like to theorize what happened, rather read the evidence, let it tell the story. She was able to get to the 14th unseen, she was in a vulnerable state, she was disturbing 700 rooms of strangers of varying sanity and anger management, in one of the most dangerous intersections in America. She was found naked, with her clothes also hidden in the tank. It saddens me that having a psychotic episode is being used to rule out foul play.

 

[Texashorn]

If I may add a clarifying message about “paradoxical undressing” associated with hypothermia, "Paradoxical undressing" in fatal hypothermia - PubMed
It occurs during the FINAL stages of hypothermia, most often seen in “open land”, just before death.
The fact she was found without wearing underwear in a tank of water is probably the single most important indicator of foul play among all the evidence. Here is why paradoxical undressing is unlikely in Ms. Lam’s death:
The coroner ruled accidental drowning, therefore they presume she entered the tank alive. 1. The aerobic endurance required. It would have taken substantial time for her to enter the final stages of hypothermia, where she would experience the urge to “paradoxically undress”, therefore a he would have had to tread water for a significant amount of time. With no edge to cling to, to rest. Anyone with access to a pool, try this. Jump in the deep side and start treading water with your arms straight up. You would need to be a solid swimming to keep this up long enough to enter the last stage of hypothermia conscious. 2. The acrobatic dexterity to undress In a state of exhaustion with no side of the pool to which to cling, maybe a solid swimmer could have successfully removed a jacket or tshirt. But a bra? Panties? 3. Removing panties while drowning again try this at home (in privacy) Do some heavy cardio by treading and slashing frantically now try to remove a pair of panties from your self. They will roll and become constricting on your legs, further restraining your tired legs ability to keep you afloat. This is a task of Herculean coordination and body awareness in water. 4. The darkness as previously stated I scuba dove a lot growing up. My mom is a rescue diver and has various niche certifications since the 1970s. I went on one night dive with her and that was my last. I was equipped with a flashlight and lots of training and swim lessons, and found it a claustrophobic experience. The documentary was misleading showing an actress flowing in a pool of water with light shining down. On my night dive (at age 14) it was hard to tell which way is up and down. She would have been in a tank of water, echoing her screams and splashes, nothing to hold onto to rest, in pitch black. She was also having a psychotic episode, compounding her ability to keep calm and engage in getting ones panties and bra off!! Without entangling one’s tired limbs. 5. Ms Lam’s swimming skills. I doubt growing up in Canada she was a strong swimmer. Immigrant parents who owned a restaurant probably did not have her swim at the local club or in the back yard pool. Did the detectives investigate her swim skills? Someone without swimming skills would not have been physically able to successfully (ie completely) remove a bra and panties in a tank, in pitch black.
Therefore, she was undressed BEFORE entering the tank. If so why would she throw her clothes in before jumping inside? She had her wits about her enough to operate an elevator, despite experiencing a psychotic episode. She pressed buttons it’s buttons. She stood, she waited. It is a significantly different level of psychosis to enter a pitch black tank of water, to go skinny dipping. If she were to have died from complications of psychosis she would have jumped off the building. SOMEONE ELSE put her clothes in the tank to HIDE them. Now, why? I don’t know. They need to reverse the accidental death ruling.
Lastly, no bruises on the body. She would have had to enter the tank very carefully, in the dark. A seamless lowering of self. No thrashing, no scraping ones skin accidentally on rusted bolts, or scratching ones legs with fingernails trying to get panties off in the water in the dark. She would have had some injury in that effort. Some bruise against the side of the tank she couldn’t see in the blind dark. Someone(s) quietly lowered her lifeless body in that tank.

 

[CinnamonSalty]

If I may add a clarifying message about “paradoxical undressing” associated with hypothermia, "Paradoxical undressing" in fatal hypothermia - PubMed
It occurs during the FINAL stages of hypothermia, most often seen in “open land”, just before death.
The fact she was found without wearing underwear in a tank of water is probably the single most important indicator of foul play among all the evidence. Here is why paradoxical undressing is unlikely in Ms. Lam’s death:
The coroner ruled accidental drowning, therefore they presume she entered the tank alive. 1. The aerobic endurance required. It would have taken substantial time for her to enter the final stages of hypothermia, where she would experience the urge to “paradoxically undress”, therefore a he would have had to tread water for a significant amount of time. With no edge to cling to, to rest. Anyone with access to a pool, try this. Jump in the deep side and start treading water with your arms straight up. You would need to be a solid swimming to keep this up long enough to enter the last stage of hypothermia conscious. 2. The acrobatic dexterity to undress In a state of exhaustion with no side of the pool to which to cling, maybe a solid swimmer could have successfully removed a jacket or tshirt. But a bra? Panties? 3. Removing panties while drowning again try this at home (in privacy) Do some heavy cardio by treading and slashing frantically now try to remove a pair of panties from your self. They will roll and become constricting on your legs, further restraining your tired legs ability to keep you afloat. This is a task of Herculean coordination and body awareness in water. 4. The darkness as previously stated I scuba dove a lot growing up. My mom is a rescue diver and has various niche certifications since the 1970s. I went on one night dive with her and that was my last. I was equipped with a flashlight and lots of training and swim lessons, and found it a claustrophobic experience. The documentary was misleading showing an actress flowing in a pool of water with light shining down. On my night dive (at age 14) it was hard to tell which way is up and down. She would have been in a tank of water, echoing her screams and splashes, nothing to hold onto to rest, in pitch black. She was also having a psychotic episode, compounding her ability to keep calm and engage in getting ones panties and bra off!! Without entangling one’s tired limbs. 5. Ms Lam’s swimming skills. I doubt growing up in Canada she was a strong swimmer. Immigrant parents who owned a restaurant probably did not have her swim at the local club or in the back yard pool. Did the detectives investigate her swim skills? Someone without swimming skills would not have been physically able to successfully (ie completely) remove a bra and panties in a tank, in pitch black.
Therefore, she was undressed BEFORE entering the tank. If so why would she throw her clothes in before jumping inside? She had her wits about her enough to operate an elevator, despite experiencing a psychotic episode. She pressed buttons it’s buttons. She stood, she waited. It is a significantly different level of psychosis to enter a pitch black tank of water, to go skinny dipping. If she were to have died from complications of psychosis she would have jumped off the building. SOMEONE ELSE put her clothes in the tank to HIDE them. Now, why? I don’t know. They need to reverse the accidental death ruling.
Lastly, no bruises on the body. She would have had to enter the tank very carefully, in the dark. A seamless lowering of self. No thrashing, no scraping ones skin accidentally on rusted bolts, or scratching ones legs with fingernails trying to get panties off in the water in the dark. She would have had some injury in that effort. Some bruise against the side of the tank she couldn’t see in the blind dark. Someone(s) quietly lowered her lifeless body in that tank.

Do we know she was wearing a bra and underwear? As she was wearing sweats/lounge type clothes she may have not been wearing any.

 

[Texashorn]

Per Josh Dean article American Horror Story: The Cecil Hotel

“Two days later, on February 21, police confirmed that the body was Lam’s. She had been found near the bottom of a tank that was three-quarter filled with water— nude, with her clothes nearby. Those clothes — a pair of shorts (size men’s medium), a T-shirt, black underwear, sandals, and a red American Apparel hoodie — were a precise match for what Elisa Lam had been wearing in the video”

 

[Texashorn]

She was possibly playing a game with another person in the hotel (hence she casually gets on the elevator). She hits all the middle buttons, one being the floor she was on I believe, which caused the elevator to get stuck (that elevator has probably been there since at least the 80s of not earlier). She starts to have a panic attack of sorts (probably due to the lack of taking her Meds) which explains her odd behavior outside the elevator.

She must have met up with the second party and they decided to go to the roof. Since she didn’t think the elevator worked she takes the fire escape (from what I gathered from the Netflix show is the k9’s lead them to a window where the fire escape was on the 5th floor, which was the same floor she was staying on).

The second party was probably familiar with the roof because they had to have used a later to get into the tank. She probably got in first naked and went into shock from the water causing her to drown. The second party probably freaked out throw everything she had into the tank with her, the second party probably had some sort of record and didn’t want to get caught up in her death. They probably also were a long term resident.

I believe she most likely did all this willingly, though I wouldn’t rule out foul play.

This is actually quite plausible! I like mulling on this idea. Meeting a long term resident who knew about the “roof top pool”. She definitely undressed before entering the tank, not while in the water. Could have been playing truth or dare on the roof. A second party with a criminal record could have panicked for some reason tossing her clothes in to avoid any association. I still wonder, entering a pitch black tank of water, at night. Especially not being a strong swimmer.

 

[Pathology]

I just think it's weird that amidst this investigation, the LAPD had to deal with someone "of their own" who basically was a turncoat.

Does anyone remember the person's name? I'd be interested to see what he was accusing LAPD of doing

 

[Shinichi_Kudo]

This is actually quite plausible! I like mulling on this idea. Meeting a long term resident who knew about the “roof top pool”. She definitely undressed before entering the tank, not while in the water. Could have been playing truth or dare on the roof. A second party with a criminal record could have panicked for some reason tossing her clothes in to avoid any association. I still wonder, entering a pitch black tank of water, at night. Especially not being a strong swimmer.

Someone had to show her how to get on the roof without setting the alarm off (which only goes off down at the lobby and the security office). Presumably someone on the 14th floor, but they might have taken more then me trip to the roof (which explains why the tracking dogs tracked her to the one fire escape)

 

[Shinichi_Kudo]

I just think it's weird that amidst this investigation, the LAPD had to deal with someone "of their own" who basically was a turncoat.

Does anyone remember the person's name? I'd be interested to see what he was accusing LAPD of doing

Christopher Dormer, I was in a class where we were following the case. He apparently had called out two fellow officers for kicking a handcuffed man. It ended with him getting let go, he killed one or two officers one of which was his representative (I think) for his case.

He wrote a manifesto though beforehand, basically warning anyone on the force who wasn’t on the list to stay out of the way.

LAPD spotted a vehicle that matched his, before confirming they opened fire. Turns out it was two asian ladies who had nothing to do with anything.

They finally caught up with him, and in an attempt to “smoke him out” they threw a smoke bomb (if I recall) into the cabin he was hiding in. It caught fire he was burned to death.

 

[Shinichi_Kudo]

The elevator wasn't stuck, it was working properly. She hit the door hold button which is there so people can load the elevator without it taking off on them when they have a lot of luggage or belongings.

Yeah I found that out after I posted that x-)

Regardless it rules out the being followed theory.

 

[Srs89]

This is my first post on a web sleuth forum.
Her autopsy shows she wasn’t taking her meds like she was supposed to. Ironically I am taking the exact meds she was on.

this is only me giving my experience with these medications and maybe what was going on with her.

my own experience with the drug venlafaxine is that, if I don’t take the right amount when I’m supposed to take it, I will have hallucinations. My depression is heightened. I have actually attempted to jump out of a moving vehicle while having withdrawals from this medication.

While on this medicine I am perfectly fine but one slip up and I have to lock myself in a room with no human contact.

now I understand that everyone is different, but everything I’m hearing on this Netflix series about her actions match with mine in a crazy way.

Her actions in the elevator to me aren’t surprising at all. When having withdrawals of this medication, it is like not having control of your body.


I just wanted to get on here and give my experience from these exact medications because this could be a possibility.

thanks for reading. Again I’m new here and created an account just to post this. if you have anything to add please do so.

 

[Blanche]

This is my first post on a web sleuth forum.
Her autopsy shows she wasn’t taking her meds like she was supposed to. Ironically I am taking the exact meds she was on.

this is only me giving my experience with these medications and maybe what was going on with her.

my own experience with the drug venlafaxine is that, if I don’t take the right amount when I’m supposed to take it, I will have hallucinations. My depression is heightened. I have actually attempted to jump out of a moving vehicle while having withdrawals from this medication.

While on this medicine I am perfectly fine but one slip up and I have to lock myself in a room with no human contact.

now I understand that everyone is different, but everything I’m hearing on this Netflix series about her actions match with mine in a crazy way.

Her actions in the elevator to me aren’t surprising at all. When having withdrawals of this medication, it is like not having control of your body.


I just wanted to get on here and give my experience from these exact medications because this could be a possibility.

thanks for reading. Again I’m new here and created an account just to post this. if you have anything to add please do so.

Welcome to the forum!

I totally agree with your post , from the first time I viewed that video my thought was that she was suffering from mental illness and having a psychotic episode , it's sad that people did not "see " that and instead read all sorts into it which were not the actual facts of the case which is that she had not taken her required dose of medication and she was suffering with symptoms of her illness. This was an accidental death no matter how much people want to see it as otherwise. that is my view

 

[Kurzz10]

This is my first post on a web sleuth forum.
Her autopsy shows she wasn’t taking her meds like she was supposed to. Ironically I am taking the exact meds she was on.

this is only me giving my experience with these medications and maybe what was going on with her.

my own experience with the drug venlafaxine is that, if I don’t take the right amount when I’m supposed to take it, I will have hallucinations. My depression is heightened. I have actually attempted to jump out of a moving vehicle while having withdrawals from this medication.

While on this medicine I am perfectly fine but one slip up and I have to lock myself in a room with no human contact.

now I understand that everyone is different, but everything I’m hearing on this Netflix series about her actions match with mine in a crazy way.

Her actions in the elevator to me aren’t surprising at all. When having withdrawals of this medication, it is like not having control of your body.


I just wanted to get on here and give my experience from these exact medications because this could be a possibility.

thanks for reading. Again I’m new here and created an account just to post this. if you have anything to add please do so.

Thanks for posting, it's great to get feedback from someone who understands these medications and their effects when taken improperly. Very insightful! Welcome.

 

[TwoStep]

The no finger prints around the tank gets me. Seeing as there should have at least been the maintenance staff. Also if someone is freaking out there should be scratch marks in the tank and at least fragments of paint under her nails. Especially if she was in a manic state of mind. Because that would place her in a much more aggressive and fearful state. And if you are fighting for your life there should have been some types of bruising or scratch marks on her from trying to climb the wall.

 

[TwoStep]

I'm on medication for ADHD and I also have CRPS. There are definitely side effects when you miss a dose or having withdrawals.
The only thing I question is we don't know when she stopped and started. She could have picked it up and still had some left from the previous bottle she finished first. Also they didn't have a timeline of how long she had been in there so of course there was going to be a lower amount in her system because she couldn't take it if she had already passed away. I agree she was acting strange but waving her hands in side the door could be her looking for a sensor to figure out why it wouldn't close. The other movements only she truly knows.

Also she had to have had knowledge of the rooftop, security free fire exit, and the water tanks prior to going up there. If she wasn't in the right mind people generally go to what's common not unknown.

 

[EmMaBu]

This is my first post on this thread. I believe she died accidentally due to her mental health, possibly exacerbated by medication. I have seen people suggest both ambien and sleepwalking and agree that the video footage might be interpreted that way. Possibly she had taken ambien to sleep during a manic episode and experienced the crazy effects it can have. I think the hand gestures just before she appears to be counting might even be a swimming gesture, i.e. possibly she was hallucinating or dreaming (or, if medication was not a factor, just thinking) about swimming, which would link to the tank.

Conversely, I also think it's possible she didn't actually understand, due to her mental state, that there was water in the tank. Possibly she got in the tank for some other reason logical to her not thinking she was lowering herself into water at all.

The bit towards the start of the footage where she quickly puts her head out of the elevator and back in again - she was just trying to check if there was a reason the doors weren't closing without them closing on her. I have done that lots of times, sometimes they close quite aggressively so you avoid being in their path.

 

[josiemaria93]

I have thought about this for a while and I don't believe her manic episode caused her to go up onto/into the water tank. I also don't believe that someone carried her (dead) up into the water tank. Perhaps someone was actually filming her - or getting her to reenact scenes from that movie dark waters, she believed she was just acting (could explain why she kept jumping out of the elevator doing weird things.. if someone outside was filming her). After she got up there onto the tank the person filming either pushed her in the tank knowing she wouldn't be able to get back out or she jumped in as part of the film and the person filming her tried to help her/pull her out (asking her to remove her clothes, tie them together to make a rope) though this was unsuccessful and the person just left her there out of fear that they'd be accused of something.