TH's emails shed light on Horman split

[SurfieTX]

But she wasn't really "paying him" was she? She was contributing to their joint household. I think (MO) that's what you do as a couple.

Sure, if they had joint accounts, which I'm thinking they probably didn't. Plus that email was written in April. J**** was sent to live with her parents in February. (? about the money - sometimes it is done through direct deposit/wage garnishments ?)

 

[ami]

But she wasn't really "paying him" was she? She was contributing to their joint household. I think (MO) that's what you do as a couple.

I totally agree. Terri wasn't paying Kaine, any more than Kaine was paying Terri by depositing his own paycheck in their account. You don't consider it paying your spouse when the money you have is contributing to the mortgage and the kids clothes - otherwise you could say the same for Kaine, that Terri had so little respect for his education and hard work that he had to pay her to live in his own home. I'm sure he didn't see it that way. You put money in the bank and use that money to pay the electric bill and grocery fund. I don't know any working class marriage in which one parent puts their money in the bank for joint use and the other one keeps everything they earn for themselves. That seems grossly unfair, and illogical.

My mom was also a stay at home to 5 of us. She budgeted fiercely, which was how she contributed to the finances. The money she saved by making clothes and food from scratch was money she essentially "earned" for the household. She was very proud of it, and good at it. My dad respected it hugely, respected it enough to know that our home wouldn't run at all without her hard work. Maybe Kaine respected Terri enough to treat her like an equal partner, rather than like someone whose money was peanuts and irrelevant in their budget.

 

[SmoothOperator]

"Three months later, the couple got married in their bathing suits in a small ceremony presided over by Kaine's dad on a beach in Kauai, Hawaii.

~~~ snip

About the same time, Terri was working as an assistant manager at Newport Bay restaurant in Washington Square. Don Alanen, a former customer, had many conversations with her when eating there with his wife. He was impressed by her professionalism.

Terri talked to the couple about wanting to become a manager in the high-tech industry where Alanen worked. She also said she had been a bodybuilder and planned to return to intensive workouts at some point.

And she talked about Kyron.

"I can't recall that she called him a stepson," Alanen said. "I'm pretty sure she said our son."

Alanen said that when Terri became pregnant, she told him she was thrilled to be having another baby."

A few more things:
1. Terri was working as a manager here in 2007: http://newportbay.com/page/location (? location - there are a few).
2. She let her teaching cert. expire in 2007.
3. She was interested in becoming a manager (? like Kaine ?) in a high-tech industry.
4. She was friendly with one customer and his wife who remembered her announcing her pregnancy, so she would still presumably be working there in 2008.
5. Looks like K was a Valentine's Day baby.
6. Terri's first marriage lasted 4 years. The second one lasted 6 years. Kaine and Terri were together for 8 years.

Terri had goals and an occupation up until the beginning of 2008, it seems. That's when her unemployment kicked in, the economy started to tank, and she spent most of the year pregnant, and was a full-time, stay-at-home mom with the kids. After that, it seems she was more of a homebody for whatever reason - and that seems really out of character to me.

SurfieTX you are making some excellent, informative, relevant, and extremely telling points in your last couple of posts... Thank you!

Especially telling is BBM.. Only thing I wanted to "tack on" was that this IMO was the "beginning of the end" for Terri psychologically, physically, emotionally, etc, etc... In all aspects of her..her appearance, her psyche, her emotional and mental stability...

In no way am I blaming anyone...Hindsight as we know is ALWAYS 20/20... and now upon looking back the signs were happening, the red flags, as well.. But who was to know this woman would be capable of what has been done...Once again, as I said HINDSIGHT IS ALWAYS A CRYSTAL CLEAR 20/20...

 

[ami]

SurfieTX you are making some excellent, informative, relevant, and extremely telling points in your last couple of posts... Thank you!

Especially telling is BBM.. Only thing I wanted to "tack on" was that this IMO was the "beginning of the end" for Terri psychologically, physically, emotionally, etc, etc... In all aspects of her..her appearance, her psyche, her emotional and mental stability...

In no way am I blaming anyone...Hindsight as we know is ALWAYS 20/20... and now upon looking back the signs were happening, the red flags, as well.. But who was to know this woman would be capable of what has been done...Once again, as I said HINDSIGHT IS ALWAYS A CRYSTAL CLEAR 20/20...

Considering this, you guys think Terri's potential defense might argue PPD for some of her more egregious behavior (rather than guilt over her part in Kyron's disappearance)?

 

[Charlie09]

This is all IMO regarding the OP.

I don't believe that Terri's "perception" is much of a reality. Having a diagnosed NPD for an ex husband, I see the so many similarities. My ex husband hasn't seen his daughter in two years, but tells people he has. He started an endless legal assault on us starting when my now 13 yo was five because I said "no" to him about something trivial--he tells everyone I started and continue to initiate all the legal fights. He complains endlessly of how poor he is because he must be forced to pay child support, while he and his wife make a whopping 175K more than my family each year (and we aren't even close to six figures!). I controlled him during the marriage he says, but he was the one carrying on numerous affairs instead of going to the poker games, sporting events and basic hang out events he claimed he wanted to go to...all with my support and a hug on the way out the door. He was afraid of me being violent--a person who is quiet and withdrawn when upset, but he punched holes in walls and turned red with rage.

I do believe that Terri didn't feel she had any freedom. Do I believe it was Kaine doing the controlling? No. I'm not just projecting my past onto this. Her history as reported--given that information--I'm just not buying it.

Unless you've seen first hand - and have lived through it, it's impossible to imagine. It's unfortunate how many here can imagine it...

 

[stmarysmead]

Truer words were never spoken, you just can't take isolated statements or actions, without any knowledge of the context, spin a story around them and expect to arrive at a real depiction.

Nor can you take every single thing in isolation, as if none of the other statements or actions existed...and dismiss them in single row....failing to view the bigger picture.

Kind of like cutting down single trees and denying there is a forest.

In time we will know which "depiction" of Terri is most accurate. I think, for now, I will stand with the one that the grieving parents...who have much more knowledge of the real evidence than any Internet sleuthers or MSM sources...have revealed to us.

 

[Chili Fries]

My two cents...

- Being married to Kaine is probably difficult. He seems to me to be what my grandmother would have called a very particular person, and one who doesn't seem to have much sense of self-reflection.

- But as many have pointed out, Terri could have just divorced him. She surely does have some real mental health issues surely exacerbated by substance abuse. I think the sexts by themselves clearly show that. The rest of her actions...I'm not trained as a psychologist so I can't really speculate beyond the obvious of her focusing her hatred of Kaine on Kyron while maybe still desperately wanting Kaine to love her.

I still feel like there is another component. Maybe it is a twisted money scheme, an accomplice or somebody Terri communicated with before June 4th, somebody beyond the extended family member whose e-mails Desiree talked about.

I really hope Kaine is seeking the therapy he's going to need to get through this. He's absorbed a huge amount of trauma, that's not a burden he can carry alone.

 

[miabellamoure]

All I can say is that I would never, ever, be with a man who thinks so little of my education, my person, my mommy skills, that I would have to pay him to be a stay-at-home mom. Would never be interested in a man who needs to keep all material possessions in his name only, with no thought as to my future.

My mom was a stay-at-home mom and us children talk all the time about how lucky we were.

Could it be that Terri was thinking the same way? my opinion

bbm

Nor would I...but, I'd bet some hard money that was not the case in this family dynamics but, only how Terri spoke of it to garner sympathy from anyone who would listen.

As for why "material possessions" such as a home might be only in one spouses name? Even tho' I think the home might have been purchased BEFORE Kaine & Terri married (not that makes a big diff) it also might have had to do with something as simple as Terri having a poor credit rating and including her name on the mortage loan would've been cause for a higher interest rate...? I dunno...lol...just thinking of the why's.

Furthermore, we are not privy to what Kaine actually had in place (will) for Terri and his family in the event of his death. Just because a name is not on a deed or a loan does not have any bearing on whether the person not named was cared for now or would be in the future.

 

[SurfieTX]

SurfieTX you are making some excellent, informative, relevant, and extremely telling points in your last couple of posts... Thank you!

Especially telling is BBM.. Only thing I wanted to "tack on" was that this IMO was the "beginning of the end" for Terri psychologically, physically, emotionally, etc, etc... In all aspects of her..her appearance, her psyche, her emotional and mental stability...

In no way am I blaming anyone...Hindsight as we know is ALWAYS 20/20... and now upon looking back the signs were happening, the red flags, as well.. But who was to know this woman would be capable of what has been done...Once again, as I said HINDSIGHT IS ALWAYS A CRYSTAL CLEAR 20/20...

Aww.:blushing:, thank you. I read this article again today, and found it fascinating to piece together some things we know now with what had been said before. I was surprised at how much I overlooked. And I agree with you 100% that, for her, this was the beginning of 'the end.' I'm still not 100% convinced, i.e., I could not convict her w/o a reasonable doubt knowing what I know now, that she is guilty. But it does help to paint a picture.

I guess the one thing that sticks out at me the most is her drastic and sudden loss of independence. It certainly was a mixture of things (NOT KAINE, and I think him wanting her to go back to the gym was to help her, not hurt her) - pregnancy, the economy, and probably a dose of postpartum depression and perhaps some underlying depression/psychiatric problems to boot. I'm now getting a real feel that Terri was a real independent, strong and rebel sort of spirit and she really had no business being a stay-at-home mom with 3 kids.

And, again, I am not being critical. I am not built that way either. I need my job, my friends, my life. I just do.

Of course, if she did do this, then certainly none of the above is even remotely meant to give her a 'reason' or 'alibi,' because she could have left the house just as easily as Kaine could have left her.

Whole thing is just so sad.

 

[GrainneDhu]

bolded in red and underline by me
Reminds me of another mother of a killer from Orlando "CA" did sorta the same.:furious: And I believed she did it for the same reason.
I am lost here, haven't been following very closely lately. I am reading back to see where I stopped following. Is there a link to these emails or have they not all been disclosed to the public?
TIA

I'm confused here. Johnny Gosch was a 12 year old boy who was abducted from Des Moines, IA, back in 1982. His mother has spoken publicly about what she believes happened to her son but that explanation is difficult to believe.

I cannot find it in me to criticise Johnny's mother or to judge her harshly. What happened to her was a nightmare that just never let up. If she believes that Johnny is still alive and that helps get her through her life, who am I to say she should not believe that? I honestly believe that every human being can only endure a certain amount of pain before they are compelled to do something to relieve that pain. For some people, I think the unsolved abduction of a deeply loved and wanted child could drive them to that point.

The point I was trying to make was that if LE decides to move forward with a "no body" homicide prosecution, I think it would make it more difficult for a jury to vote to convict if they were faced with the mother of the missing child saying that she believes that child is still alive.

So, one of the things LE would want to do is try to get everyone on the same page.

The emails under discussion have not been released publicly. KH and DY were apparently shown the texts last Friday and have each held press conferences in which they mentioned the existence of the emails.

 

[cluciano63]

Kind of OT but I remember the case of Carrie Culbertson in Ohio; LE had a very hard time convincing her mother that Carrie was dead, as they wanted to proceed with a case against her ex-boyfriend for murder. They did eventually get her to testify that in her heart she knew Carrie was dead and the ex was convicted of kidnapping and murder.

 

[cluciano63]

OT, but her lawyers are probably working on a post-partum psychosis break with reality about now...

Not saying it will work, but we may see it. Kaine is outlining a case for them, in a way, detailing the various signs he missed that he now sees, etc...

 

[BringKyronHome]

"I have no money because I stayed home with Kyron at birth since his natural mom wouldn't - spent all of my 30k to do so. … "

This sentence sticks out to me the most because she also was able to stay at home with her daughter and her son. Some mothers out there would really love to be able to be a stay-at-home mom.

And about the unemployment - where'd that come from? I would love to see an employment history. We know that she taught here and there, but didn't her license get revoked after the DUI? She had just recently re-applied for it, IIRC.

No her license did not get revoked. Teaching licenses don't get revoked. She simply let it lapse....and recently applied to reistate it as she was looking to get back into teaching.

I wonder what the year of this e-mail is, because I too wonder how she could have been on unemployement...unless she has an employement history that we are unaware of, she hasn't been employed for way more than 19 months (isn't that the current length of benefits?).

Wasn't there an article sometime at the beginning that outlined her work history?

We've had a couple confusing explanations about Kaine & Terri's relationship at the beginning. I'm wondering if Terri was the daycare service...that may be what makes all this make sense.

And I bet Desiree didn't know.

And I bet Kaine was paying her.

After they got married I bet those payments stopped and then Kaine wanted the child support payments (which makes sense). But I bet her not having her own independence is what she is really freaking out about.

I know you are all saying she's complaining, complaining...but I kinda get what she is saying.

I feel kinda 'trapped' too, now that all my money is gone...trapped might be a harsh word though...it's more or less the feeling of not having a safety net or any means by which to get one.

I am a SAHM...and have been for almost 8 years. My pay would probably be laughable in my industry IF, and that's a big IF, I could actually get a job there during this lovely economy. Reality is, if I were to go back to work (at whatever) chances are it wouldn't come close to covering afterschool programs & day care for my little one. And then factor in the obvious...how could I face my children and say something like, mommy's need to spend time with adults is way more important...because it's NOT...but where does that leave me...here...I love it, but even if I wanted a change, it makes no sense...I gotta ride it out.

Meantime DH hates the time I spend online too..but oh well I say, cuz it's the only adult interaction I get somedays (while all my friends & hubby is at work).

I hope that doesn't sound harsh...like maybe Terri's e-mail sounds. Cause I don't resent anyone...but I used to have a TON more control over my days, and I do miss that, and finacially I feel pretty disabled. I couldn't even bare to review my 401K at this time...I havent' looked at it since the stupid crash...all the work I put into it, and now I'll be relying on my husband for that as well - it's a pretty lowsy feeling!

In a few years, when the littlest is in school fulltime, I'll be hoping for better luck in the job market - I've got a pretty short window to make it to anything respectable in terms of retirement, meantime, let's toast to SS being around when I retire.

Does that make any sense?

 

[SurfieTX]

I found this too. Not sure if it means anything:

"As a family, the couple played video games and occasionally took trips, visiting Walt Disney World in Orlando, Fla., and traveling to Israel."

A few things:
1. That is really cool if they took Kyron and J***. What an opportunity to see the world! Hmmm...passport, anyone?
2. My mom is a 110% Christian and could not wait to visit Israel, which she did after retired; however, it does kind of beg the question about the religious orientation of the family. Hormann (with the extra N) is a Jewish name, but Moulton is not - per my cursory search. I only say this because some psychotic/postpartum women "hear" God.

 

[SurfieTX]

No her license did not get revoked. Teaching licenses don't get revoked. She simply let it lapse....and recently applied to reistate it as she was looking to get back into teaching.

I wonder what the year of this e-mail is, because I too wonder how she could have been on unemployement...unless she has an employement history that we are unaware of, she hasn't been employed for way more than 19 months (isn't that the current length of benefits?).

Wasn't there an article sometime at the beginning that outlined her work history?

We've had a couple confusing explanations about Kaine & Terri's relationship at the beginning. I'm wondering if Terri was the daycare service...that may be what makes all this make sense.

And I bet Desiree didn't know.

And I bet Kaine was paying her.

After they got married I bet those payments stopped and then Kaine wanted the child support payments (which makes sense). But I bet her not having her own independence is what she is really freaking out about.

I know you are all saying she's complaining, complaining...but I kinda get what she is saying.

I feel kinda 'trapped' too, now that all my money is gone...trapped might be a harsh word though...it's more or less the feeling of not having a safety net or any means by which to get one.

I am a SAHM...and have been for almost 8 years. My pay would probably be laughable in my industry IF, and that's a big IF, I could actually get a job there during this lovely economy. Reality is, if I were to go back to work (at whatever) chances are it wouldn't come close to covering afterschool programs & day care for my little one. And then factor in the obvious...how could I face my children and say something like, mommy's need to spend time with adults is way more important...because it's NOT...but where does that leave me...here...I love it, but even if I wanted a change, it makes no sense...I gotta ride it out.

Meantime DH hates the time I spend online too..but oh well I say, cuz it's the only adult interaction I get somedays (while all my friends & hubby is at work).

I hope that doesn't sound harsh...like maybe Terri's e-mail sounds. Cause I don't resent anyone...but I used to have a TON more control over my days, and I do miss that, and finacially I feel pretty disabled. I couldn't even bare to review my 401K at this time...I havent' looked at it since the stupid crash...all the work I put into it, and now I'll be relying on my husband for that as well - it's a pretty lowsy feeling!

In a few years, when the littlest is in school fulltime, I'll be hoping for better luck in the job market - I've got a pretty short window to make it to anything respectable in terms of retirement, meantime, let's toast to SS being around when I retire.

Does that make any sense?

It does. I came to the same conclusion as I was working through the thread in later posts.

 

[Chablis]

OT, but her lawyers are probably working on a post-partum psychosis break with reality about now...

Not saying it will work, but we may see it. Kaine is outlining a case for them, in a way, detailing the various signs he missed that he now sees, etc...

Except, stuff like saying you dont really like a 7 year old boy who is missing months before he disappeared really wont help anyone believe it was a post partum that came from Kaine exposing Terri for what she is.

 

[SurfieTX]

Considering this, you guys think Terri's potential defense might argue PPD for some of her more egregious behavior (rather than guilt over her part in Kyron's disappearance)?

I absolutely do. Kaine/Rackner made no bones about wanting to subpoena her medical records for the RO parenting amendment. It is possible she was exhibiting drug-seeking behavior and/or had stated to her doctor that she was suffering from depression (that she may or may not have hid from Kaine). Yep, I believe that is a card that Houze has in his pocket.

 

[cluciano63]

Except, stuff like saying you dont really like a 7 year old boy who is missing months before he disappeared really wont help anyone believe it was a post partum that came from Kaine exposing Terri for what she is.

Kaine is going back about 2 years or more, telling of a slow destruction of her personality in a way, increased alcohol abuse, mood swings, etc...the e-mails may just end up being one part of the picture depending upon what they say.

Mind you, I did not say this was a valid defense, just that it might be something they will put forth.

 

[Billylee]

Does anyone know if KATU just received this copy of this email, or whether or not they had this one back when they released the first Terri Horman emails (the male chaperon one, etc.)? If they had this one since then, I'm really curious as to why it wasn't released when the others were?

 

[SmoothOperator]

bbm

Nor would I...but, I'd bet some hard money that was not the case in this family dynamics but, only how Terri spoke of it to garner sympathy from anyone who would listen.

As for why "material possessions" such as a home might be only in one spouses name? Even tho' I think the home might have been purchased BEFORE Kaine & Terri married (not that makes a big diff) it also might have had to do with something as simple as Terri having a poor credit rating and including her name on the mortage loan would've been cause for a higher interest rate...? I dunno...lol...just thinking of the why's.

Furthermore, we are not privy to what Kaine actually had in place (will) for Terri and his family in the event of his death. Just because a name is not on a deed or a loan does not have any bearing on whether the person not named was cared for now or would be in the future.

This is 100% accurate.. I married young and the marriage did not last{tho wouldn't change a single moment as I have a 13yr old son from that marriage}...but back to whose name is on what...

My name was not on the house. Mortgage, Nor Deed.. and I still had 50% rights to that home...As the marital residence.. It mattered NOT..

As for 4 other ppl whom are family or close family friends...on their homes there is only 1 of the spouses name on the Deed/Mortgage...None of these 4 are for nefarious, selfish, or controlling reasons... NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY..

Rather for very GOOD and very REALISTIC reasons and situations just as mia has stated ^above^... One spouse having A-1 credit, the other having something as minor as a late payment on a credit card, to in one case something even MORE SIGNIFICANTLY MINOR... a late fee to BlockBuster Video was turned into her credit report..therefor lowering her score and that making enough of a difference that it would have raised the rate on their monthly mortgage...

Those above^ are realistic, valid, and 100% true and ACCURATE reasons for why one spouses name ends up on a Home's mortgage/deed..

Not a single thing nefarious, controlling, selfish about why it was done that way...Nor is it some shameful "mark" against one whose name is not on the deed/mortgage... This is the reality of how real ppl live, work, pay bills, and live their lives.. No drama or dark reason thats hidden away rather its the way things work in the "real world" that we live in...