Time of the crime?

[Camper]

It is very strange, at least that I am aware of, that no approximate time of death wa established. After all, it isn't rocket science.

===

narlacat " I think from the autopsy report time of death has pretty much been established at around 1pm."

narlacat, this would establish in my mind that the pineapple was eaten around 11 PM, and that PERHAPS the R's were still up and running around later than WEall thought.

Buzzml, there was a walk in refrigerator in the Ramsey home, which could have delayed rigor. IF the body was in there for any time.

To the new folks, read the books, Perfect Murder Perfect Town, Cyril Wechts book, DOI, Douglas book about finding the motive knowing the motive for the murder, will enable the finding of the murderer. I have the book but have forgotten the title. Above all read Steve Thomas book.

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[Chrishope]

If there really was an intruder who wrote the note, and ransom really was the motive, then it wouldn't matter if the Ramseys got up at 5:30 or 10:00.
The note says the call will come between 8-10. If you're the kidnapper, you simply call. It's not absolutely necessary that they find the note before the call comes. "Tomorrow" fits with most IDI theory, which has the intruder in the house for hours, starting fairly early in the evening of the 25th.


If the Rs wrote the note, the 8-10 time frame may have no significance at all. It's just a time they made up for the ransom call. It's interesting though, that most of us on the RDI side feel the Rs put in 118k to make police think it was someone who had info about the family - yet the 8-10 time frame for the ransom call implies the author didn't know the family was flying to Michigan next morning. It's possible of course that someone could know the amount of JR's bonus w/o knowing of the family's flight plans. It's also possible that if the Ramseys wrote the note, they just didn't think of every angle. "Tomorrow" seems almost necessary in a note written by the Rs. The closer the time of death is to the 911 call, the worse it looks for the Rs.

 

[Cypros]

Yeah.... but it was a big house, no one went in the wine cellar until hours later. They could have snuck out the basement window and no one would have seen.. possibly....

You must forget any notion that the basement window was used for escape. Remember that John Ramsey says that he had to remove a chair and boxes BLOCKING the entrance to the train room when he was searching the basement that morning. The open window was in the train room. It is impossible to block the outside of a door once you are inside, which is what an intruder would have had to do before escaping through the window. John Ramsey's own testimony about the blocked doorway eliminates the window from being an escape route.

 

[Chrishope]

I was wondering if the mail gets delivered in the USA on 26th December because it sure doesn't here in Australia!

In '96 Christmas was on a Wednesday. Thursday I think would have been a normal delivery day for the post office. We don't have boxing day - it's not a holiday. How much time people have off at X-mas varies quite a bit. Union workers might have had a long weekend. Lot's of people wouldn't have had Th/Fr off.

 

[Omega]

You must forget any notion that the basement window was used for escape. Remember that John Ramsey says that he had to remove a chair and boxes BLOCKING the entrance to the train room when he was searching the basement that morning. The open window was in the train room. It is impossible to block the outside of a door once you are inside, which is what an intruder would have had to do before escaping through the window. John Ramsey's own testimony about the blocked doorway eliminates the window from being an escape route.

Yeah I know all of that, i don't believe for a second that anyone got in or out via that window, I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying to suggest alternatives... none of which are more probable than the Ramsey's doing it themselves

 

[OceanEyes]

You must forget any notion that the basement window was used for escape. Remember that John Ramsey says that he had to remove a chair and boxes BLOCKING the entrance to the train room when he was searching the basement that morning. The open window was in the train room. It is impossible to block the outside of a door once you are inside, which is what an intruder would have had to do before escaping through the window. John Ramsey's own testimony about the blocked doorway eliminates the window from being an escape route.

Does the door open into the train room, or out into the basement? If it opened in, if there was an intruder, he could have very well pulled things in front of the door to buy himself some time, then closed the door from inside the train room.

 

[angelwngs]

Does the door open into the train room, or out into the basement? If it opened in, if there was an intruder, he could have very well pulled things in front of the door to buy himself some time, then closed the door from inside the train room.

Additionally, an intruder could have indeed done this for the specific purpose of slowing down anyone entering that room interrupting his/her escape.

 

[Love_Mama]

Free to wander through the house unsupervised. but not in Jonbenet's room, I presume, because it was at that time the "crime scene". At first the cops were treating it as a kidnapping and so Jonbenet's bedroom was presumed to be the place she was taken from and her bedroom was secured as the crime scene. Is that right?

But to lose right to Ramsey from 10:40 till noon - my goodness, what slack policing! The ransom note instantly makes JR a suspect; he shouldn't have been free to wander the house unsupervised possibly contaminating evidence etc.

Anyway. So the known events were:

1. Patsy rings 911.
2. Cops arrive ten or so minutes later.
3. Half of Boulder arrives at the Ramsey's invitation.
4. They wait for the phone call.
5. At 10:40 after no phone call JR wanders off in the house.
6. At noon he has mail in his hand.
7. At 1pm ish they organise a search of the house.
8. Just after 1 pm JR and some neighbours discover the body.

I seem to have read a report that said someone had already looked in the winecellar and said there was no body in there earlier in the day. So it becomes crucial what JR did from 10:40 to 1pm. And another report said he went down to the basement that morning. Can someone confirm those reports for me? As I say, there is a swamp of misinformation and it is very hard to find facts.

Who delivers mail on Dec 26th?

John Ramsey supposedly discovered the body. Fleet White was in the basement when John was there but had not looked into the wine room.....
Fleet While no longer talks to or has any communication with the Ramseys...or I should say John only now that Pasty is dead . Fleet White was the neighbor who had given the Chrismas party the nite before. Fleet White has openingly voiced that he thinks the Ramsey's are guilty.

xxxxxxxoooooo
mama

 

[angelwngs]

John Ramsey supposedly discovered the body. Fleet White was in the basement when John was there but had not looked into the wine room.....
Fleet While no longer talks to or has any communication with the Ramseys...or I should say John only now that Pasty is dead . Fleet White was the neighbor who had given the Chrismas party the nite before. Fleet White has openingly voiced that he thinks the Ramsey's are guilty.

xxxxxxxoooooo
mama

Mamma~

From Det. Linda Arndt's statements that I read, I thought:

Fleet White had looked in the wine cellar on a previous trip to the basement. He did not see JBR's body. He was with John Ramsey in the basement later in the day, when John Ramsey entered the wine cellar and found JonBenet, but Fleet didn't go immediately into the wine cellar w/ John Ramsey when he (JR)discovered her body. Upon returning upstairs, Fleet White called Det. Linda Arndt over to tell her privately that he had looked in the wine cellar previously and not seen JBR.

~~IMO, Every indication was that it was at this moment that Fleet White's actions showed that he indeed 'smelled a rat'.

 

[Love_Mama]

Mamma~

From Det. Linda Arndt's statements that I read, I thought:

Fleet White had looked in the wine cellar on a previous trip to the basement. He did not see JBR's body. He was with John Ramsey in the basement later in the day, when John Ramsey entered the wine cellar and found JonBenet, but Fleet didn't go immediately into the wine cellar w/ John Ramsey when he (JR)discovered her body. Upon returning upstairs, Fleet White called Det. Linda Arndt over to tell her privately that he had looked in the wine cellar previously and not seen JBR.

~~IMO, Every indication was that it was at this moment that Fleet White's actions showed that he indeed 'smelled a rat'.

Angelwings..............I heard that he, Fleet White had looked into the wine cellar.......but because it was dark he didn't see Jon Benet. Now I'm getting confused! Also didn't know that Fleet White actually told that to Linda Arndt. ............IF that is the case, how did the body turn up in the wine cellar LATER! Just push me in the direction where you saw that.......Please......pretty please!
xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
whose been on this computer for 9 hours.........

xxxxxxxxooooooo

 

[angelwngs]

Angelwings..............I heard that he, Fleet White had looked into the wine cellar.......but because it was dark he didn't see Jon Benet.

Correct. It was said that when Fleet White first looked in the wine cellar he didn't see JBR. It was also assumed that it was because it was dark and he did not turn on the lights. ( The switches for these lights were apparently on the outside of that room instead of on the inside where they would normally be. I don't know who put this 'spin' on the Fleet White story about it being too dark for him to see, but I have a decent idea who it might have been. But Fleet White made more than one trip to the wine cellar. He went down again to the basement with John Ramsey, when John went into the wine cellar and found JBR. Fleet White was not inside the wine cellar when John initially found JBR. This makes John Ramseys time which he apparently is unaccounted for during the day of the 26th even more suspicious. Det. Linda Arndt also said that JR said he was going to 'get the mail' and she 'assumed' he meant the mail that 'should have been' dropped through the mail slot in the door, but that in fact, that mail slot was not used by the Ramsey's to receive mail. So JR vanishes from Arndt's sight for a suspicious period of time.

Now, Fleet White runs upstairs and says, 'someone call 911'. Nobody makes the move, so Fleet White calls 911 himself. Next, JR brings JBR upstairs. etc.so forth... At sometime after this, Fleet White calls Det. Linda Arndt over and says privately to her as if to make a point...., I was in the wine cellar earlier and I did not see JBR.

PR also said in interviews later w/LE that she saw a change in FW the day of the 26th, but that she knows that they already know about all that. (incinuiating that Fleet White might be guilty of something to do with the crime!)

Now I'm getting confused! Also didn't know that Fleet White actually told that to Linda Arndt. ............IF that is the case, how did the body turn up in the wine cellar LATER! Just push me in the direction where you saw that.......Please......pretty please! See link that I posted below. ~~~~~
xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
whose been on this computer for 9 hours.........

xxxxxxxxooooooo

~~~~~~~~~~~

Scroll down to 1:50 PM (for Linda Arndt's version of Fleet White conversation when he pulled her aside privately to tell her he had been in cellar and did not see JBR):

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer/primer4_time.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[txsvicki]

Maybe JonBenet was put into the wine cellar room because it was chilly and would hinder decomposition until found. I find it really strange that right away, the Ramsey's called in a "team" of doctor, minister, friend who happened to be a lawyer, and friends to take Burk. Seems like they had it all thought out.

 

[Albert18]

Hope you don't mind me digging up an old thread.

I have always wondered why the Rams put the 25th as JB's date of death. Nothing seems to be straight forward with these people so there must be a convoluted reason.

It may or may not have been known that JonBenet was still alive after the head injury. If it was thought she was dead at that point, the autopsy report saying she died when the cord was tightened around her neck had to be devastating.

Could it be the head injury did happen before midnight. The cord around her neck was placed after midnight, the 26th. The 25th was put on her headstone to reaffirm for themselves the belief she was dead after the head injury.

 

[UKGuy]

Angelwings..............I heard that he, Fleet White had looked into the wine cellar.......but because it was dark he didn't see Jon Benet. Now I'm getting confused! Also didn't know that Fleet White actually told that to Linda Arndt. ............IF that is the case, how did the body turn up in the wine cellar LATER! Just push me in the direction where you saw that.......Please......pretty please!
xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
whose been on this computer for 9 hours.........

xxxxxxxxooooooo

Love_Mama,

It has been speculated that when John went missing on the morning of the 26th, that he relocated JonBenet's corpse from some other hiding place in the basement, then proceeded to discover her later?

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[Solace]

Hope you don't mind me digging up an old thread.

I have always wondered why the Rams put the 25th as JB's date of death. Nothing seems to be straight forward with these people so there must be a convoluted reason.

It may or may not have been known that JonBenet was still alive after the head injury. If it was thought she was dead at that point, the autopsy report saying she died when the cord was tightened around her neck had to be devastating.

Could it be the head injury did happen before midnight. The cord around her neck was placed after midnight, the 26th. The 25th was put on her headstone to reaffirm for themselves the belief she was dead after the head injury.

I think you are right Albert. It was to reaffirm.

 

[lviola]

I think you are right Albert. It was to reaffirm.

Wow, you may be on to something.

 

[sister]

Hope you don't mind me digging up an old thread.

I have always wondered why the Rams put the 25th as JB's date of death. Nothing seems to be straight forward with these people so there must be a convoluted reason.

It may or may not have been known that JonBenet was still alive after the head injury. If it was thought she was dead at that point, the autopsy report saying she died when the cord was tightened around her neck had to be devastating.

Could it be the head injury did happen before midnight. The cord around her neck was placed after midnight, the 26th. The 25th was put on her headstone to reaffirm for themselves the belief she was dead after the head injury.

It could be a lot simpler than that. Maybe they put the 25th because Christmas was JonBenet's favorite holiday. Or maybe because of the religious significance - birth of Christ.

 

[azwriter]

I think some scenario such as that ought to be considered. It doesn't make much sense, but no scenario makes much sense. This is the type of scenario I have in mind, trying to match the RN with the crime scene. But then the RN says 'You will be denied her body'. The note is so long, it seems, because the author is very, very anxious to impress upon Mr Ramsey that he should not contact the authorities. He had no hesitation doing just that. He's not blameworthy for that. I would have called the cops immediately too, regardless of the note. But I don't detect anything about the body and crime scene that specifically says "We warned you Ramsey!" And nothing else would indicate a death at around 6ish in the morning. Everything points to death earlier than that time.

Good to consider alternatives, though. The idea of "monitoring" the Ramseys could involve the "kidnapper" hiding in the house to watch what the Ramseys do. Where else would they monitor them from? But very, very unlikely.

The ransom letter only makes sense if you consider it is a fake. Written only as a cover-up. First it's entirely too long for what a kidnapper would intend. "Got your daughter,get us the money," is what is really needed. But this thing goes on forever. If this was written by a real kidnapper, don't you think more emphesis and time would have been taken to clearly explain the exchange of the money for the release of their daughter. Isn't that the main reason for a ransom note?
Instead, the exchange of the money, the most important part of a kidnapping for the criminal standpoint, is confusing. There's nothing to solidily indicate the day of the exchange. Just the word tomorrow which means one thing for the writer of the note and another for the person reading the note for the first time.
Balance the amount of information given on how the exchage will take place in comparison to how the so-called small foreign faction (the author of the note) explains why the kidnapping has taken place. Most of the script deals with the reason and what will happen if the parents inform anyone than how to get the money to the kidnappers.
Very simply, this lenghty ransom note is a phony!
jmo

 

[Ames]

Hope you don't mind me digging up an old thread.

I have always wondered why the Rams put the 25th as JB's date of death. Nothing seems to be straight forward with these people so there must be a convoluted reason.

It may or may not have been known that JonBenet was still alive after the head injury. If it was thought she was dead at that point, the autopsy report saying she died when the cord was tightened around her neck had to be devastating.

Could it be the head injury did happen before midnight. The cord around her neck was placed after midnight, the 26th. The 25th was put on her headstone to reaffirm for themselves the belief she was dead after the head injury.

John was actually asked this question, and he said that it was because it was the last day that they saw JB alive. Now whether he is telling the truth or not....thats ANOTHER story.

 

[Ames]

The ransom letter only makes sense if you consider it is a fake. Written only as a cover-up. First it's entirely too long for what a kidnapper would intend. "Got your daughter,get us the money," is what is really needed. But this thing goes on forever. If this was written by a real kidnapper, don't you think more emphesis and time would have been taken to clearly explain the exchange of the money for the release of their daughter. Isn't that the main reason for a ransom note?
Instead, the exchange of the money, the most important part of a kidnapping for the criminal standpoint, is confusing. There's nothing to solidily indicate the day of the exchange. Just the word tomorrow which means one thing for the writer of the note and another for the person reading the note for the first time.
Balance the amount of information given on how the exchage will take place in comparison to how the so-called small foreign faction (the author of the note) explains why the kidnapping has taken place. Most of the script deals with the reason and what will happen if the parents inform anyone than how to get the money to the kidnappers.
Very simply, this lenghty ransom note is a phony!
jmo

Exactly!! And this ransom note contains several indented paragraphs...and the mention of money comes up in the SECOND paragraph. If it was real....it would have been short and sweet...just like you said...and the money would have been the first thing that was mentioned, and not go on with a whole paragraph, about how she is safe and unharmed.