Trial break: The State vs Jodi Arias; trial resumes 4 February 2013

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BritsKate said:
I'm not a mental health professional either despite what my facebook says. ;) Disordered people, just like regular folks, have stressors and triggers too in my experience. My ex was diagnosed as comborbid APD/NPD (and I believe he would have been dx'd with conduct disorder but he was in counseling before that was even a dx). Prior to my knowing him he'd had some minor scrapes with the law but had been lucky and avoided incarceration. He had a further history of arson as a young adult I only knew about after he set our house on fire when we'd been together many years.

Prior to his diagnosis though he was married twice, once for 7 years and once for 10 years. He had three children and maintained relatively continuous employment. He had several friends on a very superficial level and some semblance of a relationship with his family. While he was abusive during our entire relationship it wasn't until the birth of our second child and financial stressors came about that his 'condition' began worsening. Fast forward a few years later, after the death of my parents, and he was arrested, plead guilty to, and convicted of drugging and raping his 14 year old niece. He was 43 years old at the time. For many years though he appeared 'normal' to those who did not know him intimately. Myself, and many, many others excused and minimized his behavior for much of it. (He was just stressed; he just had a temper; I'd just been thoughtless, etc.)

I believe disordereds are fully capable of maintaining facades...the effectiveness and length of such are determined in part by those surrounding them as much as everyday stressors. JMO
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With all due respect, and I am incredibly sorry you had to go through that awful set of circumstances... There were still indicators, like the arson.

What I have seen that dissuades me from thinking this has been a constant issue with Jodi Arias is that we have not seen any sort of childhood or even adolescent/teenage issues. Does she have a criminal history before this? Was she in trouble a lot as a child/teenager? Even into her early 20s? It really does seem like she had a fairly normal life up until she met Travis. Then things started falling apart.

One of the criteria for diagnosing something like ASPD is a recurring element of delinquency and illegal behavior and violating social norms and things of that nature. There is also a requirement for the individual to have had noticeable behavioral issues under the age of 15. I just don't see it. Maybe it's been well hidden, but I think with the random, scattered things we've heard cropping up (hitting someone with a baseball bat?), anything of this nature would have surfaced long ago. I just haven't seen a recurrent theme.
 
I finally decided what I want to be! I hereby decree myself a PROFESSIONAL link finder! (This however does not absolve Linda of her obligation to provide two links once every third blue moon. Just so ya know!) ;)
 
BritsKate said:
I'm not a mental health professional either despite what my facebook says. ;) Disordered people, just like regular folks, have stressors and triggers too in my experience. My ex was diagnosed as comborbid APD/NPD (and I believe he would have been dx'd with conduct disorder but he was in counseling before that was even a dx). Prior to my knowing him he'd had some minor scrapes with the law but had been lucky and avoided incarceration. He had a further history of arson as a young adult I only knew about after he set our house on fire when we'd been together many years.

Prior to his diagnosis though he was married twice, once for 7 years and once for 10 years. He had three children and maintained relatively continuous employment. He had several friends on a very superficial level and some semblance of a relationship with his family. While he was abusive during our entire relationship it wasn't until the birth of our second child and financial stressors came about that his 'condition' began worsening. Fast forward a few years later, after the death of my parents, and he was arrested, plead guilty to, and convicted of drugging and raping his 14 year old niece. He was 43 years old at the time. For many years though he appeared 'normal' to those who did not know him intimately. Myself, and many, many others excused and minimized his behavior for much of it. (He was just stressed; he just had a temper; I'd just been thoughtless, etc.)

I believe disordereds are fully capable of maintaining facades...the effectiveness and length of such are determined in part by those surrounding them as much as everyday stressors. JMO
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I understand, and I've certainly seen instances where a person is able to function within societal bounds, hold a job, maintain some superficial relationships, and at the same time be a seething, personality disordered abuser who only lets his/her real self be known behind closed doors and in very limited circumstances.

I think our DSM does not completely capture all the different manifestations of pathological behavior. There are outliers who don't fit neatly into any diagnostic criteria, but they are clearly pathologically disordered (in my unprofessional opinion)
 
Pensfan said:
You are searching for the the concept called latent psychopathology. Although Jodi did not obviously appear to be a psychopath in her early years, she had behavioral markers, behavioral vulnerabilities (maybe genetic too?), and likely few protective factors for developing into a psychopath. I’ll bet one obvious early sign was Conduct Disorder, impulsivity, and heightened responses to unpleasant stimuli. She dropped out of high school for some reason, but no one will discuss why she dropped out. The answer to why she dropped out of high school will also tell us about her previous behavioral problems.

When Jodi began to experience extreme stress, her underlying psychopathic personality could no longer be hidden.

You might like this article:
http://www.nih.gov/news/health/mar2010/nida-15.htm

Numerous suicide attempts frequently occur with psychopaths. Maybe Jodi tried to kill herself in high school and this is why she had to drop out (long admission to a psych unit).
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Great link, thank you
 
Pensfan said:
You are searching for the the concept called latent psychopathology. Although Jodi did not obviously appear to be a psychopath in her early years, she had behavioral markers, behavioral vulnerabilities (maybe genetic too?), and likely few protective factors for developing into a psychopath. I’ll bet one obvious early sign was Conduct Disorder, impulsivity, and heightened responses to unpleasant stimuli. She dropped out of high school for some reason, but no one will discuss why she dropped out. The answer to why she dropped out of high school will also tell us about her previous behavioral problems.

When Jodi began to experience extreme stress, her underlying psychopathic personality could no longer be hidden.

You might like this article:
http://www.nih.gov/news/health/mar2010/nida-15.htm
Click to expand...
Conduct Disorder requires a long-term recurrence of delinquency and criminal behavior as a child, up until 15. If there were pervasive instances of this type of activity, I think that a lot more individuals would be coming out of the woodwork to say "Hey, I knew her and she was in trouble all the time." There just really has been no indication of this at all. I think there was one incident from when she was really young, and she dropped out of high school. Neither of these instances fit the criteria by themselves. Dropping out of HS isn't even really a factor.

:twocents:
 
BritsKate said:
I finally decided what I want to be! I hereby decree myself a PROFESSIONAL link finder! (This however does not absolve Linda of her obligation to provide two links once every third blue moon. Just so ya know!) ;)
Click to expand...

You are well qualified and suited for this position. :)
 
m00c0w said:
Borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, maybe some sort of late-onset schizotypal thing going on.

It's being discovered more and more that some people already have latent predispositions to certain disorders. Schizophrenics are a great example of this. They can go on for years (usually until late teens, early 20s) being completely normal and either a stressor or other factor comes in and all of a sudden they're displaying classic symptoms in a full-blown case. Marijuana use is something that's been correlated to to these incidents, as well. However, sometimes you have the chicken and the egg thing... Are they using it because they're trying to self-medicate, or are they dysfunctional because of it?

I don't think it's anywhere near out of the realm of possibility for her to have had a completely normal life/lifestyle and then stressors caused a condition to become more apparent.

:twocents:
Click to expand...

That is exactly what happened with by brother. He obtained a college degree and owned a home independently. Showed some oddities but nothing like the full blown schizophrenia he lapsed in after our sister was killed. Nut the flip side of that, we designed a new lifestyle for him and pulled him in close to the family and his symptoms have miraculously abated. But we are really lucky I know.
 
I have been mystified by the fact that even her old BF's seem to care about her.

And the fact that the women in jail support her as well is strange. Women under stress and who knows what kind of issues are not the friendly type.

I wonder if minor 4th description is not closer to something more accurate.

I really think people who had relationships with her would not be hesitant to say things she did.
 
Has it ever been reported what JA was doing between dropping out of high school in the 11th grade and buying/moving into home with Darryl?
 
nursebeeme said:
The Stranger Beside Me - 48 Hours - CBS News

I am watching this 48 hours (brian stuart case) and our guy Juan Martinez was the prosecutor and is in this video!

(and I just saw the SEAL)


oh.. and he takes the stand in this case (good to see Juan in action!)
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DUDE!!!! I'm watching this. If Juan can convict this guy with no body and no forensic evidence; JA is in the bag - body bag that is.
PS. Thanks so much for the link, nursebeeme!
 
m00c0w said:
With all due respect, and I am incredibly sorry you had to go through that awful set of circumstances... There were still indicators, like the arson.

What I have seen that dissuades me from thinking this has been a constant issue with Jodi Arias is that we have not seen any sort of childhood or even adolescent/teenage issues. Does she have a criminal history before this? Was she in trouble a lot as a child/teenager? Even into her early 20s? It really does seem like she had a fairly normal life up until she met Travis. Then things started falling apart.

One of the criteria for diagnosing something like ASPD is a recurring element of delinquency and illegal behavior and violating social norms and things of that nature. There is also a requirement for the individual to have had noticeable behavioral issues under the age of 15. I just don't see it. Maybe it's been well hidden, but I think with the random, scattered things we've heard cropping up (hitting someone with a baseball bat?), anything of this nature would have surfaced long ago. I just haven't seen a recurrent theme.
Click to expand...

We simply don't know anything definitively about her childhood or teen years. I'll bet it is there.

I find it troubling that she is only supported by her mother in court. I'd love to know who all visited her in prison. I see no long term connections with people.

Some psychopathic children learn very early and very fast to manipulate to get what they want. They do damage covertly and are often believed because of their charm.
 
BritsKate said:
I finally decided what I want to be! I hereby decree myself a PROFESSIONAL link finder! (This however does not absolve Linda of her obligation to provide two links once every third blue moon. Just so ya know!) ;)
Click to expand...

Roflmao!
 
Linda7NJ said:
We simply don't know anything definitively about her childhood or teen years. I'll bet it is there.

I find it troubling that she is only supported by her mother in court. I'd love to know who all visited her in prison. I see no long term connections with people.

Some psychopathic children learn very early and very fast to manipulate to get what they want. They do damage covertly and are often believed because of their charm.
Click to expand...
BBM

Exactly. But a lack of evidence doesn't mean something's there. I just don't feel it's proper to "diagnose" someone with a mental condition by just assuming what you (general "you," not you as an individual) want to be there is there. Of course, everyone has a right to their opinion. That is mine; everyone else is fully entitled to theirs.

:twocents:
 
katiecoolady said:
That is exactly what happened with by brother. He obtained a college degree and owned a home independently. Showed some oddities but nothing like the full blown schizophrenia he lapsed in after our sister was killed. Nut the flip side of that, we designed a new lifestyle for him and pulled him in close to the family and his symptoms have miraculously abated. But we are really lucky I know.
Click to expand...

What a blessing you and your family are for your brother! I recently read something that explained that this is often how schizophrenia first rears its ugly head in young adult males. So sad.

O/T but check this out the video below if you have not seen it. Accounts of very successful and accomplished individuals who are managing schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11113
 
omg you guys.. watch this video where jodi talks about notes from the ninjas!

[ame="http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50139242n"]Jodi Arias on threats received in Calif. jail - 48 Hours - CBS News[/ame]
 
m00c0w said:
BBM

Exactly. But a lack of evidence doesn't mean something's there. I just don't feel it's proper to "diagnose" someone with a mental condition by just assuming what you (general "you," not you as an individual) want to be there is there. Of course, everyone has a right to their opinion. That is mine; everyone else is fully entitled to theirs.

:twocents:
Click to expand...

I'm perfectly comfortable diagnosing her here on Websleuths. I am under no professional constraints. I just need slap an IMO and everything is great:)

Stick around, as I'm going to find her guilty of first degree murder and sentence her to die by lethal injection. :)

All IMO
 
BritsKate said:
I got my legal decoder ring out of a Cracker Jack box so take this for what its worth. It would seem according to jury instructions published by the Arizona bar that lesser offenses are included with a first degree murder charge (except felony). I'm including the link so one of our esteemed attorneys can take a peek when they have time.

http://www.azbar.org/media/292098/2011_cumulative_supplement.pdf

Relevant portion of instructions begins at pp. 112 with felony and premeditated definitions just above.
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I have looked this over, and I'm going to take it to the legal thread and discuss it there. I don't want to interrupt the flow of this great discussion that's taking place now.
 
:moo:

RE: Emotional Stressors

The only piece of info I think could add as a stressor was what Jodi revealed in the interrogation about having been cheated on before by another lover. It also seems that Darryl was not going to marry her after all that time and she maybe she felt particularly rejected. She bet it all on Travis and he let her down too.

It doesn't answer whether she showed signs of being so angry, cold, or cruel before. (well, there's the cat she abandoned and sibling fights, but nothing yet that seems enough to put a name on it)
 
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