Trial Discussion Thread #31

[jay-jay]

The thing is, if OP has slipped up a couple of times during testimony, I could understand that. It would be natural. What I wasn't expecting was the ease with which he lies. Or how comfortable he is calling other people liars. Or how if he's not calling them liars, he's shifting the blame onto them for something he did. Or how he can steadfastly deny a proven fact (he had to have pulled that trigger in Tasha's). The very fact he can do all this stuff under oath and with no conscience whatsoever about lying, must surely give the Judge some serious concerns about whether any of his testimony can reasonably possibly be true.

Yes, this is the bit I found truly astonishing and it just makes the whole thing all the more sinister, on top of the actual killing itself.

 

[soozieqtips]

AFAIK the 03:12 was from Mr. Johnson's notes where Roux said there was a woman was screaming at 03:12. Unless I missed another reference?

Baba said that shortly after 03:00 a guard reported shots. Mrs. Stipp looked at her clock and it was 03:02 (3-4 minutes fast. Shortly after that she heard the first set of sounds.)

Your other question was what had to have happened after the shots at 03:16-03:17.

The things you mention here (the bat, the legs, the gun) could all happened between the two sets of sounds.

They argue.
She's locks herself in the toilet.
He gets a bat.
He hits the door and makes a hole/holes in the wood in the process.
(Witnesses hear the first set of "shots.")
(They also hear terrified screams.)
He goes to the bedroom.
He puts on his legs.
He gets the gun.
He goes back to the bathroom.
(Witnesses hear the intensity and fear in the screams escalate.)
He shoots her through the door.
(Witnesses hear the second set of "shots.")
(Witnesses hear the screaming stop.)
He uses the tip of the bat to crack as a lever to crack the door then breaks it open with his hands.
He drags her into the bathroom.
At 03:18:45 the texting and phoning starts.
After the 03:22 call he carries her down the stairs.
She dies on or at the bottom of the stairs.

Thank you liesbeth for laying out this logical sequence of events to explain how OP had time to do things in between. He didn't have to rush around too much afterwards as he was multitasking beforehand! I enjoy your posts very much by the way.

 

[Viper]

I'll admit that I proposed that there may have been bleeding from the liver as it was pale from blood loss. But I can let that go!

Thanks for reintroduction of clarity re arterial blood loss.

BIB. I am glad that you finally did let it go! All that talk about Reeva's liver bleeding and internal bleeding. Thank you!

I am curious about the time that it took Reeva to die. And I am even willing to give her a hypothetical full six (6) minutes to die - for her heart to stop beating and pumping blood through her body with much of it bleeding out through her gunshot wounds. Her brain function was gone and her respiratory functions were gone nearly instantly, that we can all agree on now, hopefully.

Looking at the blood loss in the WC it looks like a small amount to my eyes. Nest says it came from the severed artery of Reeva's right arm; and that was bled out all the time until OP broke open the door and carried her out of the closet to the bathroom floor. There on the bathroom floor the blood pools are much smaller. The bleeding appears to slow dramaticly. I am attaching an image of a woman who bled to death for reference of what the volume if blood would look like.

And then there is the hypothetical six minutes to consider with the blood. At some point Reeva's heart is going to stop, sometime less than six minutes. The DT says the shots were fired at 3:00, the PT says the shots were fired at 3:15-3:17, so say 3:16. The Standers and Baba arrived at 3:25, so that is 9 and 16 minutes, respectively. Either time is much greater than the maximum six minutes used in the hypothetical and makes arterial spurt at the staircase impossible.

But if there is arterial spurt on the staircase, then how is that possible given that it looks like Reeva died in the WC, or perhaps the bathroom, just by looking at the blood pools. And the time is just to long, way too long if it is nine (9) minutes.

 

[Bazinga]

"Likely scenarios" are ok for defence... not so good for prosecution.
Prosecution have this "Burden" to prove their case "Beyond reasonable doubt"

It is the defense who have the luxury of just raising REASONABLE doubt... that's the rules

Rumpole,
Do you agree with the likely scenario that it was Reeva heard arguing but feel it won't pass the burden of beyond reasonable doubt?
Could you be convinced that some of this evidence puts Oscar's version into doubt?
I'd love a little crumb of possibility that you could see it that way? Pretty please?

 

[sleuth-d-]

The only things that had to have happened after the gunshots at about 03:16 to 03:17 are:

a) OP breaks open the door (if it's already damaged by the bat this takes a few seconds);
b) He drags Reeva out of the toilet (again this takes seconds not minutes, remember no prints of him sitting or standing in the blood only lifting-and-dragging marks into the bathroom)
c) He gets his phone (the one he smuggled out of the crime scene) and this is what we find:
03:18:45 – GPRS – 75 seconds
03:19:03 – Outgoing call to 2251 (Johan Stander) – 24 seconds
03:20:02 – GPRS – 79 seconds
03:20:05 – Outgoing call to 082911 (ambulance service) – 66 seconds
03:21:22 – GPRS – 61 seconds
03:21:33 – Outgoing call to 6797 (Baba, security) – 9 seconds (a misdial?)
03:21:47 – Outgoing call to 121 (voicemail) – 7 seconds (a misdial?)
03:22:05 – Incoming call from 6797 (Baba, security)

d) He picks her up and carries her down the stairs.

I have a question for you.

If he shot her at shortly after 03:00 why did the frantic texting and calling only start at 03:18:45? Because before that the only other phone activity was at 01:48:48 – GPRS – 309 seconds – tower closest to Oscar’s house.

that is a very good question at the end. listing the activity beautifully highlights this.

 

[Rumpole]

Putting Oscar's version to one side (or in the rubbish bin :wink
I can easily see him getting Reeva out of the toilet and to the top of the stairs as the Standers arrived. The door panel is already broken and he has identified its Reeva. Phone calls while taking a moment to put prosthetic legs on, (if they weren't already on) a few seconds to grab the key from of the inside lock and open the toilet room door, a minute to drag Reeva out. Run to unlock the front door and panic for a moment, then back upstairs to pick up her up and walk 15 or so metres. I don't need any what ifs to make this work.

After Oscar's call to Stander he and his daughter were there at Oscar's house within about 5 minutes. It is very reasonable to believe that in that same amount of time Oscar simply got Reeva from the toilet room to the top of the stairs.

I think there is still available time for some other actions.

If gunshots started 3:17... you'd have to give some time to fire, recover etc. It simply takes human beings time to do stuff. He had to at least get bat (or pick it up if you think it was there already?) and bash door, wrench it open, drag body out, make 3 phone calls, go to bedroom and put legs on, come back... minimum stuff and I would contend any human being would be pausing to look think, be horrified etc. I really still consider it impossible for shots to have been at 3:17. First phone call at 3:19, Stander at 3:22.

I dont even think you could do it after rehearsing and going for it like an Olympic event... I see it as impossible.

On top of that it would require that NOBODY heard the bat strikes, though all witnesses were alerted to something serious happening, and it leaves sounds earlier that the Stipps were SURE with gunshots unexplained. People have posted that those sounds could be any old thing... doors slamming etc. Funny that people will accept that a door slamming CAN sound exactly like a gunshot(to a guy with military experience).. but will not entertain the idea that a frantic bashing of a door with a bat can sound anything like a gunshot? Not sure how you slam a door 3 or 4 times in rapid succession?

IF Nel wants to contend that something other than gun or bat on door made "Gunshot noises" why has he not done sound tests to show say a door slamming sounds anything like a gunshot? Maybe he tried and failed?


Regardless. Nel has not presented evidence of a third event that caused noises that sounded just like gun shots. What the Judge has before her is TWO events that made loud bangs, and two witnesses (closest) who heard two sets of bangs. I think I KNOW what the Judge will make of that, and the rest of the "Gestalt" from the State evidence.

I do have high hopes for a reasoned deliberation, and sensible decision from a Judge. I would be less confident if this trial was before a Jury

 

[Viper]

I agree, keeping in mind, he was shooting to kill. What would be the weight of Oscar's gun?

Mine weights about 6lbs when it is fully loaded, but my Glock has a lot of plastic pieces. His Taurus would weigh a little more.

 

[Carmelita]

minor4th, I understand what you're saying. We are in the phase of the trial where evidence is being presented and tested. To date we have heard snippets of what the two cases may be, but never the whole enchilada. This will come during the next phase of the trial. Argument based on the evidence presented.

Wait, I know we still have closing arguments (maybe a day or two's worth ) and the prosecutor will cross but hasn't the state presented it's case? I realize SA is different than the US but surely the state can't just throw together a wholly unspecified scenario in closing, giving the defense no chance at rebut it.

 

[liesbeth]

Thank you liesbeth for laying out this logical sequence of events to explain how OP had time to do things in between. He didn't have to rush around too much afterwards as he was multitasking beforehand! I enjoy your posts very much by the way.

Thank you so much, soozieqtips. I enjoy reading your posts too.

 

[sleuth-d-]

AFAIK the 03:12 was from Mr. Johnson's notes where Roux said there was a woman was screaming at 03:12. Unless I missed another reference?

Baba said that shortly after 03:00 a guard reported shots. Mrs. Stipp looked at her clock and it was 03:02 (3-4 minutes fast. Shortly after that she heard the first set of sounds.)

Your other question was what had to have happened after the shots at 03:16-03:17.

The things you mention here (the bat, the legs, the gun) could all happened between the two sets of sounds.

They argue.
She's locks herself in the toilet.
He gets a bat.
He hits the door and makes a hole/holes in the wood in the process.
(Witnesses hear the first set of "shots." Willow wood on a Meranti door.)
(They also hear terrified screams.)
He goes to the bedroom.
He puts on his legs.
He gets the gun.
He goes back to the bathroom.
(Witnesses hear the intensity and fear in the screams escalate.)
He shoots her through the door.
(Witnesses hear the second set of "shots.")
(Witnesses hear the screaming stop.)
He uses the tip of the bat as a lever to crack the door then breaks it open with his hands. The straight crack runs through bullet hole D.
He drags her into the bathroom.
At 03:18:45 the texting and phoning starts.
After the 03:22 call he carries her down the stairs.
She dies on or at the bottom of the stairs.

this for me too. ^^^^^^^

 

[liesbeth]

Ya reckon?

PT have rested their case... and I missed it

I really do not think the PT have proved beyond reasonable doubt that OP shot KNOWING that Reeva was behind the door. There is still a LOT they could have proved... but they have not focused on that, so I am not sure how much the Judge will have got of that. It is NOT the Judges job (I would think) to be looking through the evidence to find points that the PT could have made.

The defense have a dozen or more witnesses to come.

Cape Town Crim. mentioned that the PT has the option to reopen their case to rebut some of the DT's evidence. Only after that will the PT and the DT state their cases and argue the evidence. Looking forward to that myself.

 

[Rumpole]

Rumpole,
Do you agree with the likely scenario that it was Reeva heard arguing but feel it won't pass the burden of beyond reasonable doubt?
Could you be convinced that some of this evidence puts Oscar's version into doubt?
I'd love a little crumb of possibility that you could see it that way? Pretty please?

I can not say I think it "likely" it was Reeva heard arguing. It is possible.
And even if it WAS likely... that is still nowhere close to proved beyond reasonable doubt.

It is possible that OP's version is made up. I was 50/50 on believing him when the trial started.

I can at least see that evidence could put OP's version in doubt. But I view the evidence with a presumption that OP is not guilty.. and so far nothing is a strain to reconcile with OP's version. If something did then I would still need several of those somethings to be convinced Beyond reasonable doubt.

I find the whole notion of a guy in a Romantic relationship deciding to shoot his girlfriend at 3:00 AM... the entire PT case... makes no sense to me.
I can though (at a pinch) imagine a paranoid, double amputee, in SA, shooting at an imagined intruder. I think there SHOULD be consequences for doing that... of course.

 

[Carmelita]

Exactly. The ONLY way to prove that it was Oscar screaming is for HIM to replicate that screaming. It seems it would be an easy thing for him to do, I am surprised [not] that Roux didn't have him do it.

OP is fighting for his life, after all, he should be able to confirm that it was HIM they heard.

Well, guess what? That is not gonna happen.

If Oscar screams like a woman in court and the witnesses verify that is what they heard, I will send every one on this board $100.00 US.

:winkaway: :razz:

I just don't understand why people think someone can replicate their response or behavior, that occurred during an extreme situation, on demand.

 

[Greater Than]

.. also, as far as I can make out, it wouldn't even slam into the frame of the window on the LH side .. the three windows seem to be staggered (not sure how to explain this) .. ok, you've got the one on the LH side which is innermost and slides across to the right over the centre panel on the bathroom side from what I can make out of it (can't seem to find a really clear, crisp image) .. then you've got a fixed centre panel, then you've got the panel on the RH side which slides across to the left on the outside over the centre panel. I'm presuming there must be some kind of mechanism to stop the window sliding any further, but it's not a frame and it's not the other (LH) window.

The other thing that never rang true to me was why OP thought an intruder would even think they would be able to get through a closed bathroom window in the first place, without having to smash the glass to either release a catch or undo a lock or a bolt .. they simply wouldn't bother, imo, and would gain access downstairs. Or, the only way they would bother to gain access through a bathroom window would be if it was already open, but it wasn't already open, not in OP's testimony it wasn't, anyway. So on all counts, the 'intruder - hearing the bathroom window slide open' story fails. No, 'an intruder' is not the immediate thing anybody is ever going to think if they hear a bathroom window opening (that's if it even did, anyway, which I very much doubt .. I think OP opened it later) .. first it would flash across their mind that no-one could open that window from the outside anyway and second it would flash across their mind that the most likely cause of the noise is the person who is sharing that room with you. BS, the lot of it!

Agreed. If there really was an intruder, they would have either gained entry through the bedroom balcony door that was wide open or though the unrepaired broken window downstairs. They wouldn't scale the wall with the hope that the bathroom window was unlocked. Moo

 

[Freya1977]

BIB. I am glad that you finally did let it go! All that talk about Reeva's liver bleeding and internal bleeding. Thank you!

I am curious about the time that it took Reeva to die. And I am even willing to give her a hypothetical full six (6) minutes to die - for her heart to stop beating and pumping blood through her body with much of it bleeding out through her gunshot wounds. Her brain function was gone and her respiratory functions were gone nearly instantly, that we can all agree on now, hopefully.

Looking at the blood loss in the WC it looks like a small amount to my eyes. Nest says it came from the severed artery of Reeva's right arm; and that was bled out all the time until OP broke open the door and carried her out of the closet to the bathroom floor. There on the bathroom floor the blood pools are much smaller. The bleeding appears to slow dramaticly. I am attaching an image of a woman who bled to death for reference of what the volume if blood would look like.

And then there is the hypothetical six minutes to consider with the blood. At some point Reeva's heart is going to stop, sometime less than six minutes. The DT says the shots were fired at 3:00, the PT says the shots were fired at 3:15-3:17, so say 3:16. The Standers and Baba arrived at 3:25, so that is 9 and 16 minutes, respectively. Either time is much greater than the maximum six minutes used in the hypothetical and makes arterial spurt at the staircase impossible.

But if there is arterial spurt on the staircase, then how is that possible given that it looks like Reeva died in the WC, or perhaps the bathroom, just by looking at the blood pools. And the time is just to long, way too long if it is nine (9) minutes.

Great post. The amount of blood in this case is really relatively small - she certainly did not "bleed out" as I've seen some people here say.

The photo you've shown clearly illustrates the difference between what we see at OP's house after the event, and what it actually looks like when someone does bleed out.

I believe that she was only alive a few seconds after being shot in the head, if not instantly. There's simply no way to have such a small amount of blood, with those wounds and a beating heart.

I do believe what is being seen as arterial spatter in the staircase and lounge is actually cast-off from the act of her being carried with those open wounds, and Oscar himself being covered in blood, and in motion.

 

[Jake18]

BIB. I am glad that you finally did let it go! All that talk about Reeva's liver bleeding and internal bleeding. Thank you!

I am curious about the time that it took Reeva to die. And I am even willing to give her a hypothetical full six (6) minutes to die - for her heart to stop beating and pumping blood through her body with much of it bleeding out through her gunshot wounds. Her brain function was gone and her respiratory functions were gone nearly instantly, that we can all agree on now, hopefully.

Looking at the blood loss in the WC it looks like a small amount to my eyes. Nest says it came from the severed artery of Reeva's right arm; and that was bled out all the time until OP broke open the door and carried her out of the closet to the bathroom floor. There on the bathroom floor the blood pools are much smaller. The bleeding appears to slow dramaticly. I am attaching an image of a woman who bled to death for reference of what the volume if blood would look like.

And then there is the hypothetical six minutes to consider with the blood. At some point Reeva's heart is going to stop, sometime less than six minutes. The DT says the shots were fired at 3:00, the PT says the shots were fired at 3:15-3:17, so say 3:16. The Standers and Baba arrived at 3:25, so that is 9 and 16 minutes, respectively. Either time is much greater than the maximum six minutes used in the hypothetical and makes arterial spurt at the staircase impossible.

But if there is arterial spurt on the staircase, then how is that possible given that it looks like Reeva died in the WC, or perhaps the bathroom, just by looking at the blood pools. And the time is just to long, way too long if it is nine (9) minutes.

BIB I would postulate (and this is speculation, if someone else corrects me I am happy for this to happen) that the slowing of the blood loss is because of the head shot stopping her breathing. Following stress such as lack of oxygen the heart rate initially speeds up to compensate - the same thing happens with blood loss. An increased heart rate = more blood initially. However as more and more blood is lost the heart rate slows and then eventually stops. Bearing in mind though that - as we all agree - the head shot stopped her breathing so the slowing of her heart would have been significantly hastened by her hypoxaemia (low levels of oxygen in her blood). I have no doubt that she would have bled more if she'd been able to breathe, as her cardiac muscle would have been able to function better. I can't tell if the woman in the picture had been shot in the head as well.

Arterial spurting doesn't have to be robust jets of blood. Before a heart stops there is a progression from a normal range heart beat to bradycardia (abnormally slow heart rate) to arrest. A weakly and very slowly beating heart would still produce a spurt pattern but wouldn't result in as much blood loss. I am assuming (i.e. again speculating) that the change in the spurt pattern is how the computer ascertains the time of death.

I don't think we'll ever know the time line but I agree that a shorter time for the heart beating is most likely.

 

[Greater Than]

I remember this differently. The carpet meets the tile at the beginning of the hallway leading to the bathroom. OP fired from a point further on than that. OP said he went down the left side of the hallway and fired from the entrance to the bathroom leaning back on the left wall; this makes sense as it frees up his right arm and hand for firing the gun. I remember Mangena saying the shots were fired from 60 cm to 3 m away.

About arm's length for OP? Arm locked, in gun shooting stance.

He wasn't hiding from an alleged intruder. He was VERY close to that door.

 

[Carmelita]

Cape Town Crim. mentioned that the PT has the option to reopen their case to rebut some of the DT's evidence. Only after that will the PT and the DT state their cases and argue the evidence. Looking forward to that myself.

Trying to understand this here. According to your post my understanding is that the state has not yet made its case.

 

[liesbeth]

Wait, I know we still have closing arguments (maybe a day or two's worth ) and the prosecutor will cross but hasn't the state presented it's case? I realize SA is different than the US but surely the state can't just throw together a wholly unspecified scenario in closing, giving the defense no chance at rebut it.

Hi, Carmelita. This is what I know. And I could be wrong.

The state has presented its evidence (but not its case). The defense has tested the state's evidence by cross examination. Now the defense is presenting its evidence and the state is testing.

SA law requires the state to give all its evidence to the defense before the trial. But the defense is not required by law to disclose all its evidence to the state before the trial. I understand from Cape Town Crim's posts that if the defense presents new evidence then the state will be allowed to reopen its case to address the defense's new evidence.

Once the evidential phase is finished both parties will have some time to prepare to present (meaning: explain/stipulate/lay out) their cases to the judge and argue their cases based on the evidence presented during the trial.

Does that make sense?

Found a link that gives a bit of information on this.
http://www.ipt.co.za/pdf/Criminal_justice_book.pdf

ETA: I should have said: The state has presented its evidence (but not its whole case). Because I use the word "case" here to include all phases of the trial: the presentation and testing of evidence as well as the phase where each party gets to tell the judge what they think happened and then argue why they are right.

 

[Carmelita]

Hi, Carmelita. This is what I know. And I could be wrong.

The state has presented its evidence (but not its case). The defense has tested the state's evidence by cross examination. Now the defense is presenting its evidence and the state is testing.

SA law requires the state to give all its evidence to the defense before the trial. But the defense is not required by law to disclose all its evidence to the state before the trial. I understand from Cape Town Crim's posts that if the defense presents new evidence then the state will be allowed to reopen its case to address the defense's new evidence.

Once the evidential phase is finished both parties will have some time to prepare to present their cases to the judge and argue their cases based on the evidence presented during the trial.

Does that make sense?

Found a link that gives a bit of information on this.
http://www.ipt.co.za/pdf/Criminal_justice_book.pdf

Thank you

I am understanding your post better now, there is not an extra part of the trial, but the state will make it's case in its closing argument? The state will also be allowed to call possibly new witnesses/experts to rebut the defense before summation?

I read some of Crim's posts but I don't recall one about the state not having made it's case yet (and/or) that being normal. Which doesn't mean I didn't miss it altogether as I am reading backwards and forwards.