Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[Carmelita]

Your definition of a delusion is incorrect. It is quite possible to have delusions that are "within the laws of physics" - they are delusional simply because they are not true. For example, I could have a delusion that Johnny Depp comes to visit me every afternoon and we drink tea in my backyard. That is presumably within the laws of physics, but it is not at all true (sadly) and so it is a delusion.

If Oscar believes that the police are out to get him, it is possible that he has some evidence that suggests this. In that case, he could be mistaken - he could have drawn incorrect conclusions from the evidence. On the other hand, if he has no evidence or reasoning behind his conclusion, it is possible that this could be a delusion. You would need to know more about his thinking on this.

Tink

Someone else suggested that I am wrong and I could be I am going to look further into it. Delusional has a very specific meaning in psychiatry. I'll have to look further into it, thank you.

 

[katydid23]

Voster testimony did not suggest that he was an aggressor in the sense of a provocateur, her testimony suggested that his instinct would be to fight rather than flee given his deformity and GAD. There is a world of difference between the two.

But look at prior incidents in his life. He seemed to be the aggressor and provocateur in other incidents. The girl at the party who later sued him, Mark Batchelor, the gun through the sunroof, etc

 

[Budgie]

ok so in a nutshell, Nel is looking for this assessment hoping for what? Have OP declared what?

My understanding is Nel wants to prove OP isn't insane, doesn't have PTSD and his anxiety prior to killing was no different to most other people with GAD. It's to rule out any acquittal and possibly a conviction under culpable homicide and go straight for the jugular with Murder ( he intended to kill) or at worst premeditated the killing. And also to stop any possible future appeal by OP. Inother words, Nel is crossing every T and dotting all i's.
IMO....in what Nel did, and is going to do, was a very clever strategy. It has thrown the defence off kilter and sent Roux into a tail spin.:scared:

 

[Val1]

i just want my life back.....lol

op?

 

[katydid23]

I don't know that she has any choice but to allow the application.

I can apply to have anyone committed that I want to, but if the person is not a danger to himself or anyone else the application will get filed and the person will go about their day.

BBM

It's not like Nel picked a random man on the street and offered the application for mental review. OP is, in fact, on trial for murder, and has admitted to killing his girlfriend. That in itself says he is a danger to others, at times anyway.

 

[james83]

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Uncle Arnold's house this evening :floorlaugh:

I wonder if everyone else in that house sleeps with a bell round there neck so they feel safe when going to the toilet in the middle of the night.

 

[Gryffindor]

Truth be told, I think there is some truth in the fact that he was a "danger" to society considering his negligence with gun ownership, after all I have learned about his conduct, I can't be surprised that it all ended this way for him, it was almost the inevitable. It still stuns me when I think about how close someone came to loosing their life while innocently enjoying their lunch at Tasha's.

Today's big shocker for me was that he abuses alcohol excessively when not training..I honestly didn't see that comming and had quite a few debates back in the day not believing he would be a huge drinker...looks like I was wrong after all

I took it to mean he just got "pished" now and again when he was outwith his training schedule.

 

[Carmelita]

While the DSM IV defines delusion in part as A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

The definition of Delusion from the DSM V has a variation

Delusions are fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g. persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, grandiose).[…] Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable to same-culture peers and do not derive from ordinary life experiences. […] The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear or reasonable contradictory evidence regarding its veracity.

http://imperfectcognitions.blogspot.com/2013/06/delusions-in-dsm-5.html

I believe my original definition of delusion is correct as they are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

 

[whiterum]

Which makes him either a liar or delusional.

I would say delusional since he heard wood moving and thought a magazine rack had walked from one side of the toilet to the other LOL

 

[katydid23]

While the DSM IV defines delusion in part as A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

The definition of Delusion from the DSM V has a variation

Delusions are fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g. persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, grandiose).[…] Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable to same-culture peers and do not derive from ordinary life experiences. […] The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear or reasonable contradictory evidence regarding its veracity.

http://imperfectcognitions.blogspot.com/2013/06/delusions-in-dsm-5.html

I believe my original definition of delusion is correct as they are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

BBM

So you believe that your original definition of delusion is correct, despite evidence to the contrary?

 

[Carmelita]

@7:18

Nel~ You've also, and that I've picked up on, you also said he's suffering from a general anxiety disorder and that is worsening.

Vorster~ Yes I believe it is increasing in intensity.

Nel~ Yes. Then you said for sentencing purposes and I just, you know, when you mentioned that, for somebody that suffering from general anxiety disorder and would possess guns that would make him a dangerous person.

Vorster~ Yes.

Nel~ Yes. And having done matters before I'm sure that you agree that um that a person suffering from general anxiety disorder would be a danger to society if he has access to a gun.

Vorster~ Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sMi1epmqkko#t=438

Thank you very much.

Yes she was speaking generally not specifically but it is obvious that Oscar was a danger with a gun at this point, that is the purpose of Dr. Voster's testimony to state just that. He did not know he was a danger, now he knows.

I thought you meant she specifically stated that Oscar was a danger to himself or others right now and should be sectioned.

I personally am not convinced that he is not a danger to himself.

 

[Carmelita]

You think Roux will contradict the direct and unambiguous statement of his highly-paid expert witness?

I think he will clarify it.

 

[Forensics]

David Smith@SmithInAfrica on Twitter

At #Pistorius trial in Pretoria. Overheard Barry Roux repeating infamous "How do you sleep at night," in a huddle with #Pistorius and team.

This is interesting – Pistorius last week denied trying to intimidate a friend of Steenkamp's, Kim Myers, by asking her "How do you sleep at night?" during a break in court proceedings.

 

[Magdalyn]

I will have do drag up the DSM V as I am not sure that article is correct but it could be. I was under the impression that the delusions had to be outside of the law of physics such as everyone other than the individual was an FBI agent.

Delusional Disorder

Mirroring the change in the schizophrenia diagnostic criteria, delusions in delusion disorder are no longer required to be of the “non-bizarre” type. A person can now be diagnosed with delusional disorder with bizarre delusions, via a new specifier in the DSM-5.

http://pro.psychcentral.com/2013/dsm-5-changes-schizophrenia-psychotic-disorders/004336.html

Non-bizarre delusions were the requirement. Bizarre delusions has been added.

Respectfully, 'everyone being an FBI agent' is not impossible due to physics. It's just improbable.

 

[soozieqtips]

David Smith@SmithInAfrica on Twitter

At #Pistorius trial in Pretoria. Overheard Barry Roux repeating infamous "How do you sleep at night," in a huddle with #Pistorius and team.

This is interesting – Pistorius last week denied trying to intimidate a friend of Steenkamp's, Kim Myers, by asking her "How do you sleep at night?" during a break in court proceedings.

There are posters here who implied Kim Myers was lying and that OP never said anything to her. And the other people who witnessed it were brushed off because they weren't 'impartial'. Now why would Roux repeat a comment that was never made?

 

[ColonelMustard]

"andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH · 3h

#OscarPistorius told me state's demand to refer him for psychiatric evaluation was "a joke" and that today's evidence went "well" for him."


I'm so happy he feels that way.

He's proved their point; he IS that delusional.

 

[sicknote]

I think he will clarify it.

Roux: What did you mean when you said Oscar wanted to shoot an intruder?

Dr: Thats what he said to me.

Roux: Let me put it to you that he actually said he wanted to root a cougar.

 

[Val1]

I can't recall whether the Dr. said it was pathological or not because I was merely responding to a poster who said that SA law did not recognise "temporary insanity" which if this analysis is correct is not the case.

So yes she may well have said it was pathological, but I am sure she said something about OP knowing wrong from right but in the stress of that night situation in his fear and panic or whatever he may not have been able to apply that knowledge due to his GAD etc. What it will mean for OP, well yes he would be institutionalised indefinitely but it means zilch because it's the Ian Brady types of this world that stay forever, not the OP types, so he would be treated and released when a team of psychiatrists deemed he was no longer a danger. Reagan's shooter is out.

Just wondering what his excuse to get out of prison free would then be for the gun and ammo incidents... or, could he get sent to some institution until he is considered fit to re-enter society on the murder charge(thus avoiding responsibility for that) and then serve those "other" convictions in prison?

 

[G.bng]

I don't know that she has any choice but to allow the application.

I can apply to have anyone committed that I want to, but if the person is not a danger to himself or anyone else the application will get filed and the person will go about their day.

I think she does have a choice so I expect both Nel and Roux to come with bursting roller briefcases to read her all the case law so that she can decide. At least that's how it works here and in the US.

 

[Magdalyn]

No Voster is speaking clinically about delusions which cannot be physically true. Someone can have the misconception that their husband is cheating on them every night with a different woman and they may be wrong or right as it is a possibility. So it is not in the world of psychiatry considered delusional.

Now on the other hand if someone thinks their husband is having relations with a gerbil on the moon every night and sending her video tape of the event, that is delusional.

It is within the laws of physics that the police are out to get Oscar so it is not considered a delusion.

While the DSM IV defines delusion in part as A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary.

The definition of Delusion from the DSM V has a variation

Delusions are fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence. Their content may include a variety of themes (e.g. persecutory, referential, somatic, religious, grandiose).[…] Delusions are deemed bizarre if they are clearly implausible and not understandable to same-culture peers and do not derive from ordinary life experiences. […] The distinction between a delusion and a strongly held idea is sometimes difficult to make and depends in part on the degree of conviction with which the belief is held despite clear or reasonable contradictory evidence regarding its veracity.

http://imperfectcognitions.blogspot.com/2013/06/delusions-in-dsm-5.html

I believe my original definition of delusion is correct as they are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.

Bolded, underlined and highlighted by me:

Your complete definition of delusion in your original post is It is within the laws of physics that the police are out to get Oscar so it is not considered a delusion

That is patently incorrect.