Trial Discussion Thread #38 - 14.05.13 Day 31

[BritsKate]

And sorry, IB, I got so passionate I neglected to answer your question. So sorry.

If a mistrial is declared, for any reason, the State reserves the right to refile charges. Prosecutors don't always do so though for a myriad of reasons - time, budget, a change in circumstances, etc.
Its up to the State to pursue, their call.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't think that the judge is going to accept Nel's request. :denied:

However, I think Nel expects that and is just as happy, as long as it forces Roux to backtrack, and downplay the mental disorder.

:judge: :denied: :denied: :denied:

Did not Roux say his next witness would confirm OP's state of mind? Not "Mrs Cuddles" I hope. If it were to be her, is Nel allowed to bring up her obvious unprofessional relationship with OP which IMO indicates bias?

 

[zwiebel]

So, way back, I stumbled upon a photo of Reeva with her black, curly hair.

Then I did the same with OP wth a pic of him sitting on his mom's lap, too.

And I thought; 'My God, that could be her daughter/sister. They look so much alike. I wondered what a psychiatrist might say about that, if called in for the defence, or prosecution.

I never dared mention it, but I just found this article, which says the same.

So now I feel a little more free to suggest - OP was 'abandoned' by his mom once...is it impossible that the prospect of being abandoned a second time, by someone who looked so much like her, pushed him over the edge?

I know a girlfriend is not a mother....but I am thinking of the strange 'come brush your teeth' comments from Reeva, that OP testified to. Doesn't that suggest she was mothering him - acting as a replacement for the mother he had lost?

And....the psychiatrist today didn't mention a word about this. But how could she miss it?
http://www.health24.com/Mental-Health/News/Did-Reeva-look-like-Oscars-mother-20140414

 

[zwiebel]

I know OP's mom did not 'abandon' him, by the way....she died. She wouldn't have left her chidren.

I am kind of referring to how children may FEEL when their parent dies, nothing more. I am convinced Mrs Pistorius loved her children very much.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Ah, alright. Thank you. It seemed unfair to me when I first read about the 30 day confinement for observation, because OP has not been convicted of anything, yet. But it seems that SA law can compell an accused to submit to this. Wow.

OP is not going to be pleased with this. I and others would like the observation to be shorter, just to get this trial over with! But it would be so interesting to see the results of his psychiatric evaluation conducted over a 30 day period! I can wait it out.

If the judge does grant Nel's request it will be interesting if OP retracts a lot of the statements that he made to Voster just so he can be out super quick .
He could say she was lying or misunderstood him
unless of course his defence team have told him mental instability is his best chance out of this in which case he will likely be there for the 30 days
On this subject is temporary insanity brought on by him being so over anxious likely to be the best outcome for him if the judge does believe his version ? Or would culpable homicide be best ?
If she doesn't believe him then it is only going to make a difference on sentencing ?

 

[Nausicaa]

It is likely a 3 day mandatory evaluation with the time frame of 30 days being the first possible release date if within that first 3 days mental health experts find sufficient cause to keep a patient under mandatory psychiatric care. If no sufficient cause is found a patient will likely be released after 72 hours.

At the present stage it's not about care, it's about evaluation.

 

[zwiebel]

Dang it. I wish Reeva had left her hair black and gone on to become one of SA's leading human rights lawyers.

It would have taken her a lot longer to become financially secure and get the nice house, and the nice car, but it would have been worth it.....

 

[BritsKate]

The argument doesn't seem to be that he is paranoid. Is this what I am missing? Is this assessment only to determine whether he is paranoid or not? He is being referred due to GAD which is probably less of a problem than NPD, HPD, BPD or any of the other personality disorders. What would be the effect if GAD was diagnosed again? Would it be of no value in sentence mitigation?

It could be valuable in sentencing because of how his psych testified. How much so is anyone's guess though. He's not being referred for GAD but rather that his diagnosis MAY have impacted his decision making skills at the time of the murder. The eval, if granted, will be to make certain Oscar is competent to stand trial and is not so mentally ill as to not be able to tell the difference between right and wrong. Its also to insure he cannot claim, on appeal, that it was due to his diagnosis that he committed murder, limit Roux in summation, and block a mitigation argument.

And I'm just gonna say it point blank - practically any disorder or illness other than cluster B personality disorder could likely be manipulated and twisted by a decent defence team to be sympathetic for mitigation. Cluster B PD would be of no value to the defence though and I think they'd fight tooth and nail to keep such a diagnosis from ever being uttered in relation to their client.

Again, JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Nausicaa]

They were discussing this later this evening on the Oscar channel.

Apparently the reason for 30 days is that it is possible to malinger / feign symptoms for a few days, but impossible to do it over a thirty day period when under continuous observation from trained nurses and a rigorous programme of evaluation etc.

What about feigning sanity when in fact you're as mad as a hatter ?

(Just out of interest, you understand...)

 

[Nausicaa]

Bolded by me as the 'Thanks' button isnt enough - The world lost something special that day

But let's remember too that murder is murder even if the victim isn't "special". I would hate to think that he would have a better chance of getting away with it if he had killed a girl with a weight problem or a flat chest or an unattractive personality.

 

[Viper]

I've never thought the reference was to a mother's looks, rather that a wife, as a person and, more importantly, her connection with and way of interacting with her husband, closely mirrors that which a man has or has had with his mother.

LOL! I don't know, I'm not in law enforcement and I don't have a degree in Criminology. But my mother has both and that is what she told me in a passing moment a few decades ago. I don't know why I retained that small bit of information, I guess I just found it weird at the time so it stuck. :smile:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Someone on here kindly suggested I buy some Bluetooth Wireless headphones so that I could still carry out wifely chores without being wired up to my iPad. They arrived today, a bit late I know, but they are brilliant. I can walk all over the house and still listen in. Why I stuck to my wired OTH type I shall never know. So, whoever you were, many thanks for pushing me in the right direction.

 

[Nausicaa]

I once heard a Judge, who was irritated, banging his gavel and saying to a lawyer "you are not merely your client's mouthpiece". [snip]

On the other hand it's a fact that OP can at any time sack his defence team if they don't act in accordance with his instructions. I have no time for this man whom I believe to be as guilty as sin, but I am all for civilized administration of justice and his right to be found guilty by the rejection of whatever defence he chooses to advance. He should not be able to get away with blaming his defence team for not respecting his instructions.

 

[zwiebel]

What about feigning sanity when in fact you're as mad as a hatter ?

(Just out of interest, you understand...)

My friend did this. She was insane, but I failed to notice (though I knew something was 'unusual'. But I am very non-judgemental).

It wasn't until I visited her in an institution, when she gave me a perfectly reasonable explanation (as always) why she had sliced herself with a razor, from her head to her toes, that I realised....

It's not me. It's you.....it's obvious now, and was all along. I just failed to notice beacuse I love you and didn't want to see. Now I know what everyone else saw, and told me, was right.

 

[Cherwell]

I know OP's mom did not 'abandon' him, by the way....she died. She wouldn't have left her chidren.

I am kind of referring to how children may FEEL when their parent dies, nothing more. I am convinced Mrs Pistorius loved her children very much.

At least she's been spared the knowledge that both of her sons have killed women.

 

[jilly]

He is just fighting to save his skin though .. I don't think he truly believes that people will buy his version, just that it is worth a shot to see if there is some way of getting off an extremely long jail sentence. It probably has got to the stage now though that he believes his own version and believes his own lies, but I don't think he is properly delusional .. not in the true sense of the word.

That's it in a nutshell. Lying, puking, crying - it's all worked in the past for him. If he gets this 30 day psych evaluation, which will be alot of testing, I believe his house of cards will all fall down. He won't be able to conceal his rage. It's him against the world.
I'm not sure he believes his own version. He's still out for blood and that was apparent when he asked Reeva's friend how she could sleep at nite.

 

[screecher]

I can clearly see why you/most of us would like the possible claim of diminished capacity not to figure in sentencing but "what if" he is assessed and judged to have a mental problem. Many of us here seem to think he has. He could spend a few years in a hospital (I have just read of a murderer whose Defence pleaded diminished capacity who was released after 3 years, though it was in the UK) and then be let out to enjoy the rest of his life as he wishes. That would be way short of what he deserves, ie a life sentence and no doubt in better conditions than an ordinary prison (maybe I am wrong there - lol). I would rather see him stuck in jail for many years for his hideous crime. Given that choice (though I appreciate it is an unknown), presently, I tend to hope that the assessment request fails but I may change my mind after reading a little more about it.

Perhaps I am missing something important here?? I highly value the legal competence of so many of you and consider myself "legally illiterate" in comparison.

Don't know about SA, but in NYS in the US, someone found to be mentally incompetent is STILL incarcerated under OMH (Office of Mental Health) in DOC (Department of Corrections) facilities. They are given their meds, attend programming and are given therapy. When/if they decompensate, they are transferred to a state forensic psychiatric facility, reentering the prison, after being stabilized in the hospital.

They do their time regardless.

I so hope SA does the same.

 

[BritsKate]

If the judge does grant Nel's request it will be interesting if OP retracts a lot of the statements that he made to Voster just so he can be out super quick .
He could say she was lying or misunderstood him
unless of course his defence team have told him mental instability is his best chance out of this in which case he will likely be there for the 30 days
On this subject is temporary insanity brought on by him being so over anxious likely to be the best outcome for him if the judge does believe his version ? Or would culpable homicide be best ?
If she doesn't believe him then it is only going to make a difference on sentencing ?

Okay...this is a big answer, sorry in advance.

The defence really doesn't want involuntary because the burden on them is so high and it is extremely difficult to prove. Its also not what they're putting forth - what they want the Court to believe is Oscar is more anxious and vulnerable than the hypothetical reasonable person and because of that, its reasonable he would shoot 4 bullets into a closed door killing a human being.

The defence is going to argue putative with 'special' factors - anxiety and vulnerability. They want Oscar 'ill' but not so ill it holds them to a higher burden.

There's a series of stages for determination. If the judge and assessors believe putative self-defence, they look first to murder, dolus eventualis. To determine intent - under dolus eventualis, its basically could Oscar foreesee the consequences and did he proceed anyway - the reasonable person test is applied.

If Oscar is acquitted of murder, then they look to CH, also using the reasonable person test to detetmine culpability.

If she doesn't believe his defence, and feels the State has proven intent, he will be convicted of murder. They'll start with dolus directus (did he intend to kill Reeva?) Sentencing, in theory and IIRC, could range from 15 years to 'life' (in practice roughly 25 years).

His disorder could be a mitigating circumstance, how much so is debatable. There are mandatory minimums but I believe in SA sentencing is mostly at the judge's discretion.

HTH and apologies - I'm not well known for brevity.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[JuneBug67]

Someone on here kindly suggested I buy some Bluetooth Wireless headphones so that I could still carry out wifely chores without being wired up to my iPad. They arrived today, a bit late I know, but they are brilliant. I can walk all over the house and still listen in. Why I stuck to my wired OTH type I shall never know. So, whoever you were, many thanks for pushing me in the right direction.

I'm a tech nut, so can feel your joy. Hope you have fun with them. I use mine with my phone too when I'm out walking to listen to music.

 

[zwiebel]

So, anyway.....I think if someone has real psychiatric problems, family and friends will be aware.

Even if they avoid the subject and can't really acknowledge it openly.

I do not think this was the case with OP. Just my opinion. I think, up until Reeva died, OP was regarded as the hero of the family, and almost anything he did was acceptable or justifiable.