Trial Discussion Thread #38 - 14.05.13 Day 31

[Viper]

On the Legal Round Table this evening, one of the experts said that if the judge grants this application there could be a delay in finding an available bed at the Psychiatric Hospital. He said that in the interim Oscar would be taken to jail. So, if he's correct we could see Oscar being led away to jail tomorrow!

Hmm... I was wondering why yesterday, when Nel first grabbed hold of this and really got excited in his argument to have OP taken for observation, Nel kept turning to Osca' while he was addressing MaLady. I wish I had the video with the timestamps to share with everyone, but it was incredible. Nel was giving his argument to MaLady with his right shoulder toward her and his face directed squarely at OP. Nel knew he had OP by the plums! LOL!!!

Now lets just hope Masipa rules in the State's favor on this. I believe that she will.

Switching for a moment. I have the belief that OP likely does have GAD, he had it then but it has gotten much much worse because of him losing everything that was his life after he murdered Reeva, and him facing the incredible stress of his trial coupled with the prospect of him spending the remainder of his life behind bars in a SA prison. He must be an emotional wreck at the moment. That V said OP represented a danger if he had access to a firearm is significant, but I don't know that it would stretch back to the night that he killed. I think it is only representative of now. Obviously OP murdered Reeva, so there is something more, some other psychological defect. If so, I hope we get to find out.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I tend to think that Masipa will issue the Order. I do not want her to, not completely anyway, for my own selfish reasons. Namely, I would like this trial to end sooner rather than later. ...

Why do you want it to end sooner?

 

[Carmelita]

bbm - So is that what Roux was referencing when he said that Nel would probably ask for another "evaluation" after his next witness?

I don't think so, I think that Roux (if we are talking about the same time) was saying that when there is an indication of a psychiatric element brought into trial, which it appears Roux is going to do with his next witness also, that Nel will by his standard, again call for another evaluation.

JMO

 

[weeeva]

He wasn't confronted with danger, he had an argument with Reeva and shot her dead (imo).

Sorry but no one knows what really happened that night. No one except the OP.

 

[jay-jay]

Maybe he would conduct his own defence. That would be worth watching.

opcorn:

Yes, I was just thinking that! I wouldn't mind betting he thinks he could do better than someone with years and years of experience.

 

[BritsKate]

bbm.
imo; op fits so many of the npd traits, do you not agree?... and surely this would come out in the 30 day assessment - the defence will not be able to keep any of the 30 day assess report from being uttered in court. maybe this is why roux so, so doesn't what op to be referred.

RBBM

After living with someone dx'd NPD/APD for 10 years? Uh huh. I also agree that such a diagnosis could not, in any way, be good for the defence in this case.

 

[jay-jay]

Sorry but no one knows what really happened that night. No one except the OP.

No, but since this GAD thing came up, it seems we're all disappearing down the rabbit hole of actually thinking OP's intruder version is fact when it quite likely isn't. The GAD thing only applies if OP's version is true, many of us don't believe it is true, and therefore the GAD thing doesn't (or shouldn't) apply as far as we (i.e. those who don't believe OP's version) are concerned.

 

[sleuth-d-]

There is a world of difference in receiving a psychological evaluation and receiving psychological treatment as an inpatient.

Evaluation consists of both interviews and the administration of a complete battery of psychological and even neuropsychological tests. And yes, certain tests have the ability to detect the suspicion of malingering. There are hundreds of questions to be answered. Photographs to be looked at, after which the subject is asked to tell a story about what is taking place in the photograph. The traditional "ink blot" test is still used. There are the broad screening tests and there are the specific, targeted tests.

A basic physical exam is normally done at the beginning of the process. Patients are observed throughout the process for things like affect, choice and use of language, eating patterns, and sleep patterns.

Some psychologists specialize in forensic evaluations. The results of all the testing are then evaluated by a psychiatrist.

I did not hear Dr. Vorster mention any standardized testing of OP other than some results of testing done by an industrial psychologist at some point in the past. She did not know who he was or why the testing was performed. She did give the opinion that it seemed to her the testing was done for "forensic reasons" rather than "treatment reasons".

Given all of the above, were I this judge, based on the import the introduction of GAD and Depression have on this case, based on the psychiatrist's warning about the increasing level of the disorder in OP, combined with the lack of solid testing at this point, and combined with the continuous wailing and puking throughout this trial, I would feel duty bound to order the extensive testing at this time.

------------

Some here seem to be mixing up the terms "conditional" and "intermittent". With GAD, it is not intermittent, it is there all the time. At some level. Then, when something stressful happens in the person's life, the symptoms of it become much more pronounced. That is what is meant by "conditional".

------------
Sometimes in delving into the world of medicine, psychology, and/or psychiatry, it helps to actually look up a term in a medical dictionary. They are online. Because oftentimes, even when you think you know what a word means, it can have a slightly different meaning within the medical world. Words that we think we know so well, like "delusions" "hallucinations" or even "dementia" can have many shades to them.

thanks for the info. v helpful.

bbm
she did know who this was.
holmes.
and she gave the report date: 18 feb 2013

maybe it was done by the police just after the arrest. i believe op was taken to hospital at that time. surely this report is of some interest now, not so?

 

[fox1lady]

I'm sickened by the way OP's mother's issues have come out in this. Yes, I'm sure alive or dead she would want to help her son but it still leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I actually think this is a huge mistake if it is the case to introduce Vorster now, with a view to getting a reduced sentence. My reasoning is that what the introduction infers, is GAD might have been a reason for acting the way OP did, which would be the third defence excuse.

On balance, if I were Roux, I would have been saying to OP "Look, in my professional opinion, this is not going well and you are going to get some form of Custodial sentence. Remember, there are the firearms charges to contend with too. However, I can bring Vorster in after the verdict to lessen any sentence."

It would appear that someone has taken that potential approach out of Roux's hands. Maybe the family have pushed the defence team in their desperation to see OP walk. It would certainly be a logical explanation to this and other witness behaviour, namely Dixon & Wolmarans' carrying out 'Tests' after OP's evidence whose results remarkably back up his version.

Nel was right when he said "You cannot have two defences," following OP changing his version. If you cannot have two defences, then suggesting a third this late in the day, is asking for a pretty long sentence if convicted.

Do they REALLY think he could walk? Does anyone here think that's a possibility?

 

[james83]

Is it just me or is this guy's story more believable than Oscar's?.

[video=youtube;FafVtHWn4X8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FafVtHWn4X8[/video]

 

[ColonelMustard]

All this talk about mental disorder is so typical of Roux strategy to deflect the attention.

Double-tap
Head shot first
Screaming like a woman
....
Mental disorder

We spent so much time talking about each of the things and now we are talking about this mental disorder even though it is all BS. I mean come on, they didn't suggest this mental disorder about this until now?! Come on.

Man what other BS excuses can the DT come up with?

We have three bloody defenses now - self defense, accidental killing and not mental disorder.... this is ridiculous

He doesn't have anything else. imho

 

[ColonelMustard]

All this talk about mental disorder is so typical of Roux strategy to deflect the attention.

Double-tap
Head shot first
Screaming like a woman
....
Mental disorder

We spent so much time talking about each of the things and now we are talking about this mental disorder even though it is all BS. I mean come on, they didn't suggest this mental disorder about this until now?! Come on.

Man what other BS excuses can the DT come up with?

We have three bloody defenses now - self defense, accidental killing and not mental disorder.... this is ridiculous

I don't think he has anything else.

 

[BritsKate]

Yes I do find it strange, but why should I be suspicious?
I have had little faith in Roux right from the start. Why would Roux leave it so late to have OP seen by a psychiatrist?
Genuine question, why has this happened? I am a bit slow on the up take.

Roux has over 30 years experience. This so isn't on him.

This is a direct result of horrible testimony given by his client that didn't clearly establish state of mind necessary to prove a putative private defence (and likely went against his team's advice) so Roux & Co. were forced to bring in an expert who would bolster anxiety/vulnerability without the time to properly vet their own expert.

That expert opened the door to questions about diminished responsibility - especially in terms of mitigating a sentence. Nel saw the neon sign that a conviction could be overturned on appeal if he didn't raise the issue of evaluation.

So here we are...and it's Oscar's doing.

JMO

 

[weeeva]

No, but since this GAD thing came up, it seems we're all disappearing down the rabbit hole of actually thinking OP's intruder version is fact when it quite likely isn't. The GAD thing only applies if OP's version is true, many of us don't believe it is true, and therefore the GAD thing doesn't (or shouldn't) apply as far as we (i.e. those who don't believe OP's version) are concerned.

I have not disappeared down the rabbit hole. I agree that the GAD only applies if his version is true.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Perhaps there was, done privately and with full client secrecy(oops privacy ) of course. Isn't one of OP's Aunts one of the top profilers in SA and wouldn't she have both the access and knowledge to all the ins and outs? It's possible it didn't give enough oomph to get him off the charges, I don't think narcissism is a good enough excuse on its own... ergo GAD to imply more.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/narcissism

Btw, why haven't we heard anything about what if anything was done and the results from when OP was whisked away by the family friend to that medical centre??

i didn't know he was whisked away by a family friend, i assumed the hospital trip at the time was under police authority. maybe this 'whisked away' business resulted in the report by holmes that vorster cited.

 

[Viper]

Why do you want it to end sooner?

Perhaps a good analogy would be: The typical Novela only runs for one season. When it ends, you get to have the satisfaction of seeing a halt to all of the drama, and see people walking away from the turmoil, leaving a painful time behind and having the prospect of living a happy life. I would like to see the people that loved Reeva, and the prosecution team that have dedicated themselves to bringing her justice, have that ending sooner rather than later too.

 

[Val1]

I don't think so, I think that Roux (if we are talking about the same time) was saying that when there is an indication of a psychiatric element brought into trial, which it appears Roux is going to do with his next witness also, that Nel will by his standard, again call for another evaluation.

JMO

Iirc, Roux had said something about his next witness was to do with the "other" aspect of the fight or flight response, which in my mind can only mean OP's physical limitations(notwithstanding his prowess as an olympic athlete...), and how that would have impacted OP psychologically in conjunction with OP's "personality" disorder(GAD).

So in that sense, then yes I think a full assessment is in order and should this be denied on what this Dr. testified to(OP being more dangerous than the average person when under stress), any further evidence that points to OP being psychologically disturbed should then cement one.

 

[Val1]

Perhaps a good analogy would be: The typical Novela only runs for one season. When it ends, you get to have the satisfaction of seeing a halt to all of the drama, and see people walking away from the turmoil, leaving a painful time behind and having the prospect of living a happy life. I would like to see the people that loved Reeva, and the prosecution team that have dedicated themselves to bringing her justice, have that ending sooner rather than later too.

I sure don't want to sit and wait for a firm decision on consequences like what's happening with JA... appeals are one thing but even those need a decision to start the process.

 

[Val1]

i didn't know he was whisked away by a family friend, i assumed the hospital trip at the time was under police authority. maybe this 'whisked away' business resulted in the report by holmes that vorster cited.

Isn't the Holmes report from years ago, probably done for OP during that challenge to the Olympic panel re him running against able-bodied athletes? Will need to review that bit...