Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

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Yes, WRM measures how warm he is in interpersonal relationships, it does not measure the capacity to feel empathy as something low in that category would be a red flag for a serious PD like sociopathy or narcissistic PD. Given what we learned about OP being mistrusting of people and having difficulty in relationships, this score doesn't surprise me. I don't know how far outside the normal range it is.

It is cherry picked because it is selectively ignoring all the other points in the report that point to OP's lack of narcissism, his lack of rage or anger, his anxiety stemming from being disabled...that's exactly what the initial post was doing in response to someone else. Narrowing the whole thing down to this one scale. I find that misleading and silly. As junebug pointed out, the actual score for empathy was normal (if she can be believed). Personally, I trust the psychs are more qualified than any of us to make these findings. Nothing in the report that I've heard so far is a huge red flag to me. That's significant.

As for the rest, I have already posted my opinions quite a bit on OP and RS and the arguments they had. They were just normal arguments, viewed from the outside from people who weren't there but are quick to out their own spin on it.

Normal for who, you? Certainly not normal for me, in fact I've left a few relationships because of exactly that kind of interchange and I wouldn't hesitate to leave my current 30 yr marriage if it got like that.

As for the "cherry picking" as you call it, I had initially asked a question of minor to which your buddy and then you jumped all over me, now that's what I call cherry picking.

I note neither of you responded when I queried initially to the implication that these interviews that the doctors had with 16 friends and family "close" to OP were not objective enough to be taken as fact, let alone that from the psychologist's report, it sounds pretty obvious it was all OP's version, I certainly didn't hear/read anything in there that would have come from say, the Myers, or ST.

It was confirmed that the only ex gf that was interviewed was in fact one of OP's biggest supporters and what relevance she would have had to what transpired in the three months before RS was killed I certainly can't comprehend, unless she was the "rabbit" reference and perhaps the catalyst to what happened that night. As for the rest, did any of them have anything to lose if OP is found guilty or even incompetent enough to require hospitalization? Objectivity as to who and what was used as reference is key. Just like a computer, only the data input can be analyzed.
 
Yes, and would a reasonable person, disabled or not, having such a fear of intruders and having claimed he was aware of workmen previously having left their ladders out, not have made sure every single night that they had been put away? In fact, he must have checked that day at some point because he then claimed they were there under his windows ... but did not call his "buddy" who had heard(quotes in the media) what he thought were 3 thunderclaps at 3:08am Feb 14th, to either come and put them away or have one of his workers do so even though OP was home plenty early enough that evening to have reasonably done so. I still wonder why OP had thanked his "buddy" for "everything you are doing" after the murder...

BBM - Ty.. I have somehow missed hearing about this earwitness.

Could someone please give me the name of this buddy? (I'm thinking it's OP's contractor friend, but I don't know his name either...) tia
 
BIB

How can "I'm scared of you sometimes and how you snap at me and how you will react to me" be considered normal? Fear in a relationship is most definitely not normal. If anyone is scared in a relationship, that relationship is abusive.

Their relationship was very young and OP admits only getting to know RS during January 2013. It didn't take long for him to frighten her, did it! The disagreements/rows/happened one after the other towards the end of January until the time he killed her.

The Defence attempted to downplay the 2-3 arguments by pointing to 'boo', 'ba', kisses, etc… but it will not work

The fact is the Court does not know how many arguments occurred between OP and Reeva… the Court is only aware of a couple of them because Reeva expressed and explained her feeling in writing.

The whole point of the exercise was to demonstrate that when a minor problem arose in an otherwise loving relationship, OP could act in a manner that would make Reeva scared of OP.

… same as in the early hours of 14 February when witnesses heard a scared woman screaming in fear.
 
Empathy is a part of clear thinking. How many times have people implied that those who have serious doubts about Oscar's guilt have poor reasoning skills? Dozens. However the one piece of balanced, professional evidence we have on Oscar's character and pathology supports what that group perceived, not what the hang 'em high gang has said over and over. At least two posters on the reasonable doubt side suggested Oscar had PTSD long before the report was out and in one case before the evaluation was even proposed. Others who had doubt supported that idea with comments or thanks. On the contrary the report clinically eliminates all Websleuths diagnoses of narcissism, psychopathy, predilection to abuse and violence and more. So who is it that is actually thinking straight?

Since the post I was in the middle of responding to has poofed, I would just like to state that the self confessed killer of an innocent person behind a closed door in a small toilet cubicle whose liability for his action is what is under discussion. Discussing whether his psychiatrist or psychological reports were truly objective is certainly open for debate as are the scores OP obtained under what imo were not properly objective observations(only day instead of their standard 24hr observations, taking OP's words as fact when he's the one with most to lose, interviewing what appears to have been only supporters of OP and even the documentation reviewed... what court transcripts did they use? and using reports from only paid defense witnesses.. really?).
 
Yes, and would a reasonable person, disabled or not, having such a fear of intruders and having claimed he was aware of workmen previously having left their ladders out, not have made sure every single night that they had been put away? In fact, he must have checked that day at some point because he then claimed they were there under his windows ... but did not call his "buddy" who had heard(quotes in the media) what he thought were 3 thunderclaps at 3:08am Feb 14th, to either come and put them away or have one of his workers do so even though OP was home plenty early enough that evening to have reasonably done so. I still wonder why OP had thanked his "buddy" for "everything you are doing" after the murder...

BiB… are quite certain about that ?

IIRC, OP said that he did not check for the ladders that day… he left his car in the driveway… so he did not go into the garage… so he could not have noticed if they were in the garage or not… something like that.
 
Normal for who, you? Certainly not normal for me, in fact I've left a few relationships because of exactly that kind of interchange and I wouldn't hesitate to leave my current 30 yr marriage if it got like that.

As for the "cherry picking" as you call it, I had initially asked a question of minor to which your buddy and then you jumped all over me, now that's what I call cherry picking.

I note neither of you responded when I queried initially to the implication that these interviews that the doctors had with 16 friends and family "close" to OP were not objective enough to be taken as fact, let alone that from the psychologist's report, it sounds pretty obvious it was all OP's version, I certainly didn't hear/read anything in there that would have come from say, the Myers, or ST.

It was confirmed that the only ex gf that was interviewed was in fact one of OP's biggest supporters and what relevance she would have had to what transpired in the three months before RS was killed I certainly can't comprehend, unless she was the "rabbit" reference and perhaps the catalyst to what happened that night. As for the rest, did any of them have anything to lose if OP is found guilty or even incompetent enough to require hospitalization? Objectivity as to who and what was used as reference is key. Just like a computer, only the data input can be analyzed.
BBM - do we know how the psych team decided who to interview? It definitely sounds like no one on the receiving end of OP's anger, recklessness and short fuse was interviewed. Wonder why that was...
 
Normal for who, you? Certainly not normal for me, in fact I've left a few relationships because of exactly that kind of interchange and I wouldn't hesitate to leave my current 30 yr marriage if it got like that.

As for the "cherry picking" as you call it, I had initially asked a question of minor to which your buddy and then you jumped all over me, now that's what I call cherry picking.

I note neither of you responded when I queried initially to the implication that these interviews that the doctors had with 16 friends and family "close" to OP were not objective enough to be taken as fact, let alone that from the psychologist's report, it sounds pretty obvious it was all OP's version, I certainly didn't hear/read anything in there that would have come from say, the Myers, or ST.

It was confirmed that the only ex gf that was interviewed was in fact one of OP's biggest supporters and what relevance she would have had to what transpired in the three months before RS was killed I certainly can't comprehend, unless she was the "rabbit" reference and perhaps the catalyst to what happened that night. As for the rest, did any of them have anything to lose if OP is found guilty or even incompetent enough to require hospitalization? Objectivity as to who and what was used as reference is key. Just like a computer, only the data input can be analyzed.

The team has access to and used witness affidavits and the entire court record. The report was triggered by the state and ordered by the court, not by the defense. It included a sentence that listed Pistorius' perceived negative qualities followed by his perceived positive qualities as gleaned from interviews of those who knew him. There is no reason to assume this report was biased or that the psychologists would not take on their task with gravity and thoroughness. The problem comes when people try to stuff the facts into their theory rather than allow facts to test and challenge their thinking. The report weighs heavily in favour of Oscar as a normal person with no particular predilection to abuse or violence who is extremely traumatized by the result of his actions. Those are the facts.

And your extremely selective, specific and transparent question to minor in response to her very broad sense of an interesting report is the definition of cherry picking. Stone cold obvious. Why argue something so apparent? The only people who would find value in your defense of that don't need you to defend that or anything else you say, as long as it's negative.
 
BBM - Ty.. I have somehow missed hearing about this earwitness.

Could someone please give me the name of this buddy? (I'm thinking it's OP's contractor friend, but I don't know his name either...) tia

Yes he is OP's contractor friend...

http://drum.co.za/celebs/hes-heartbroken/

I note he's calling the thunderclaps gunshots in this article...
http://www.capitalbay.com/mobile/mobile/uk/343239-final-picture-of-pistorius-and-the-girlfriend-he-shot-dead-shows-smiling-reeva-days-before-her-death-and-the-pet-monkey-they-both-adored.html

Perhaps that's what OP was thanking him for in this:
https://twitter.com/MediaSlut/status/328202854500290560/photo/1
 
I didn't delete anything. Must have been a moderator. Watch those assumptions...it's never too late.

Sorry, I will go back and rephrase... could you perhaps now address the post?
 
The team has access to and used witness affidavits and the entire court record. The report was triggered by the state and ordered by the court, not by the defense. It included a sentence that listed Pistorius' perceived negative qualities followed by his perceived positive qualities as gleaned from interviews of those who knew him. There is no reason to assume this report was biased or that the psychologists would not take on their task with gravity and thoroughness. The problem comes when people try to stuff the facts into their theory rather than allow facts to test and challenge their thinking. The report weighs heavily in favour of Oscar as a normal person with no particular predilection to abuse or violence who is extremely traumatized by the result of his actions. Those are the facts.

And your extremely selective, specific and transparent question to minor in response to her very broad sense of an interesting report is the definition of cherry picking. Stone cold obvious. Why argue something so apparent? The only people who would find value in your defense of that don't need you to defend that or anything else you say, as long as it's negative.

BiB… Do you believe the report is helpful to OP's case ? … or detrimental to the State's case ?
 
The team has access to and used witness affidavits and the entire court record. The report was triggered by the state and ordered by the court, not by the defense. It included a sentence that listed Pistorius' perceived negative qualities followed by his perceived positive qualities as gleaned from interviews of those who knew him. There is no reason to assume this report was biased or that the psychologists would not take on their task with gravity and thoroughness. The problem comes when people try to stuff the facts into their theory rather than allow facts to test and challenge their thinking. The report weighs heavily in favour of Oscar as a normal person with no particular predilection to abuse or violence who is extremely traumatized by the result of his actions. Those are the facts.

And your extremely selective, specific and transparent question to minor in response to her very broad sense of an interesting report is the definition of cherry picking. Stone cold obvious. Why argue something so apparent? The only people who would find value in your defense of that don't need you to defend that or anything else you say, as long as it's negative.

bbm - This is exactly my point... what did they actually use.... if they concentrated on witnesses for the defense and used OP's words as fact and didn't actually review RS's messages, the length of their relationship or how it didn't even get off the ground until after the trip to Capetown in January(what's that, a month before he killed her?), or listened to how he screamed(imo reliving what he screamed at RS, sounded way too personal for an intruder warning) in court "Get the *advertiser censored** out of my house! Get the *advertiser censored** out of my house!", or reviewed how he kept tailoring his "version" to fit the facts that had come out with the PT's witnesses, then yes I don't consider it an objective report. In fact, imo, given that even you have now said that much of it was to do with "positive qualities as gleaned from interviews of those who knew him" his low score of 35 is raising even more alarm bells.
 
BiB… Do you believe the report is helpful to OP's case ? … or detrimental to the State's case ?

I think it bolsters other evidence that suggests his history is one of anxiousness and hyper-responsiveness to perceived danger far more than it is a history of uncontrolled rage and intimate partner violence. I think it adds weight to his account.
 
:seeya:

Looks like we're ready for a new thread here. I'm going to close this one while I prepare another. Check back here for the link shortly.


Thanks!
 
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