Trial Discussion Thread #48

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Oscar, assault/accident and alcohol often seem to make the same sentence.

Makes one wonder just how much alcohol OP consumed on Feb. 13th. Considering the party he went to that afternoon and his bad news/bad mood, I’d hazard to guess a lot.

From everything I’ve read, alcohol seems to dramatically transform him, i.e. mean, reckless, aggressive drunk. That is never a good thing when you’ve already got narcissistic tendencies and a rich boy entitlement complex.
 
Nothing new and outlandish IMO… but I suspect that hearing the Defence's case all in one stroke will be very amusing.

…especially since many allegations were made by the Defence and it was stated that those allegations would be proven but they never were :

- OP screaming alternately like a woman and a man…

- The bat strikes sounding like gunshots and gunshots sounding like bat strikes...

- The analysis of photographs by an expert who would demonstrate the police tampering conspiracy against OP…

- etc...

I totally feel cheated, not hearing OP scream like woman! *sniff*

Instead, we were subjected to two female defense witnesses who attempted to scream like a man attempting to scream like a woman!

Seriously, Roux, SERIOUSLY???

At no point did Roux instruct his client to take the stand and scream like a woman - even though that was the heart of his defense!

With essentially ZERO evidentiary challenge from defense to neutralize five ear witnesses hearing a woman’s death screams, OP’s entire story, his claim of innocence is virtually indefensible. Without concrete challenge, the screams must stand as fact. Masipa cannot and will not ignore defense’s massive failure on this crucial count.

This, alone, should convict Oscar Pistorius.
 
"Part man, part god and unchained by the conventional codes of seduction, he is defined by his interior strength and his desire to conquer… Oscar Pistorius possesses the masculine values which Thierry Mugler holds so dear." Ooops someone in marketing just got fired :thinking:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-dropped-sponsors

This article speaks of his sponsorship avalanche and how billboards were taken down once Reeva was confirmed dead.

- Olympics July August 2012 Dummy spit about blade length.

On September 30, 2012 he allegedly shot through the open sunroof of a car with his 9mm pistol while driving with friends in Modderfontein.

Then in a fight in Sandton December 2012)with someone who gave him a cut worth stitches.

OP shot fired from the Glock pistol at Tashas in January 2013.

This is all public record ....imagine what we haven't heard?

I think whether he killed Reeva the very next month or not he was starting to become a sponsorship liability.:moo:

When you lay it all out in black and white like that, wow - a veritable ‘rap sheet’.

The Defense is right about one thing - Oscar Pistorius truly is a “paradox”. A golden-boy Olympian (essentially just one step below a demi-god) with aggressive, self-destructive tendencies. This doesn’t even include prior incidents like his 2009 (alcohol-fueled?) boating accident, 2009 arrest for (alcohol-fueled?) assault, etc. I’m sure we’d be shocked if we knew the full extent of OP’s misdeeds and transgressions.

The guy really is a hot-head, a loose cannon with a short fuse. For somebody allegedly obsessed with a perfect public image, he sure does everything he can to trash it. Jekyll and Hyde comes to mind. (I’m still wondering about those docs at Westkoppies and their “report”. LOL) Geezus, he can’t even stay out of trouble during his murder trial, i.e. VIP Room! His poor PR people must tear their hair out by handfuls. (Didn’t Uncle Leo step in there for awhile with the press, to give Uncle Arnold a break? LOL)

With his lifestyle, history and personality, had it not been Reeva, it most certainly would have been some other unfortunate woman down the road. Reeva was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong guy.
 
I wonder how quickly each side's Heads of Argument will be released (e.g. at the start, during or after the next couple of days)?
 
Thanks Hoosen… but are you implying that this was my first "proper" sleuthing ? :thinking:




:p ;)


Clearly not AJ - with the quality of your previous post I assume you have been coming up with such Gems for years…. :) :takeabow::clap::sleuth:
 
Regarding tomorrow's proceedings:

Assistant prosecutor Andrea Johnson told AFP that the closing arguments had already been sent to the judge and that the state prosecutor will be the first to address the court.

She said Nel will not read the entire document but "certain portions that he wants to highlight to the court."

"The state argues, defence argues, state replies, and then we are done," said Johnson.

"Then the judge will tell us when we must come back for the judgement."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...k-in-court-as-murder-trial-nears-verdict.html
 
It appears that Judge Masipa will be able to ask questions of both sides:

"The judge will show where her allegiance lies once she starts asking questions," said Marius du Toit, a former prosecutor and now defence lawyer who is not involved in the trial. "The party that gets hammered by the judge when arguing is the party that's got the short end of the stick when it comes to the ruling."

Masipa can interrogate prosecutor Gerrie Nel and chief defence lawyer Barry Roux on their explanations for the killing and evidence in the court record, which amounts to thousands of pages.


http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/world_news/article_1dc070ca-2e54-5a57-9fec-39dab1237bb5.html
 
all jmho

What is OP’s defence?

In substance, his evidence is involuntary action. This eventually became clear. It was repeated over many sessions, and was consistent and never contradicted. In retrospect, his defence actually did not change from the start of the trial and appears quite deliberate.

Summary & Intepretation of his evidence:

He heard a noise
He perceived it as the toilet door opening
He thought an intruder was coming out to attack him
This caused an involuntary fear response
In this response, he was not in control of his actions
In this response, he was not able to think
In this response, he was aware of his actions and can remember them
In this response, he fired the shots
He did not want to fire, he did not mean to fire, he did not intend to fire

His evidence of the trial:

Plea Explanation
The discharging of my firearm was precipitated by a noise in the toilet which I, in my fearful state, knowing I was on my stumps, unable to run away or properly defend myself physically believed to be the intruder or intruders coming out of the toilet to attack Reeva and me.

Evidence in Chief 8 April
I heard a noise from inside the toilet, what I perceived to be somebody coming out of the toilet. Before I knew it id fired 4 shots at the door

Nel 9 April
You referred to the incident in plea explanation as an accident. What was the accident?
-The accident was I discharged my firearm in the belief that an intruder was coming out to attack me
Was the discharge accidental?
-The discharge was accidental * I believed that somebody was coming out. I believed the noise I heard inside the toilet was somebody coming out to attack me or take my life
Do you know what an accidental discharge is?
-My understanding is that I didn't intend to discharge my firearm
Oh, then you do.
So you never intended to shoot the intruders?
-I never intended to shoot anyone. I got a fright from a noise that I heard inside the toilet. I perceived it to be somebody coming out to attack me. That's what I believed.
You never purposefully fired shots into the door.
-No I didn't.

Nel 11 apr
- I didn't mean to pull the trigger, in that sense it was an accident
I don't want us to get confused later on. You say I never meant to pull the trigger
- That's correct my lady
- The noise from the bathroom made me pull the trigger
- I can remember pulling the trigger
- I didn't intend to shoot


Nel 14 April
-I discharged the firearm my lady
-Because I thought someone was coming out to attack me
-I didn't want to shoot the person coming out
-I didn't have time to think of what I wanted to do
-I was terrified
You were thinking every step of the way, but on this critical instant you didn't think
-yes
Isn't your defence that you thought you were in danger and wanted to shoot the person that put you in danger?
-No
Is it your defence that you fired at the attacker?
- No
Or at the perceived attacker?
- I fired at the door
Is it your defence that you fired at the perceived attacker?
- No that's not my defence
Then what is your defence?
- My defence is as I've said I heard a noise and I didn't have time to interpret it and I fired my firearm out of fear
Out of fear, by accident....because I don't understand your defence, you can't have two. You understand that?
- I understand that
The way I understand your defence is that you acted in putative self defence. You perceived an attack, you fired at the attacker, to kill him or to ward off the attack. That's not true am I right?
- I didn't fire to kill anyone
Or to ward off an attack?
- I didn't have time to think. I heard this noise and I thought it was somebody coming out to attack me so I fired my firearm
Your defence has now changed sir from putative self defence to involuntary action, is that what you're telling me?
- I don't understand the law, I can tell what is asked, and reply as what I thought
I wouldn't say I understand the law but that is what I hear that your defence is not one of PSD any more, we can forget that. It's now I don't know why I fired
- I’m not saying I don't know why I fired, I've given the reason to why I fired, I thought somebody was coming out to attack me
But you didn't fire at that person
- I fired in the direction I thought the attack was coming from

Break

- I didn't think
- My firearm was pointed at the door
- I didn't intend to fire my gun
- My firearm was pointed at the door, when I heard the noise I fired
You didn't intend to fire your gun, your gun just went off
- No my gun didn't just go off, I didn't intend to fire but I did fire, it didn't just go off
Is it like the glock did it just go off or did you pull the trigger
- I pulled the trigger
Why
- Because I perceived danger to be coming out to attack me
Did you fire at the danger
- I fired where my firearm was pointed where I perceived the danger to be that's correct


Why did the evidence appear so confusing at the time?

Because it was. OP deliberately didn’t offer the explanation explicitly and deliberately kept it ‘hidden’. Only by thorough cross-examination was it eventually teased out. Why this was the case is open to speculation. His bail application also strongly implied, but did not say explicitly, intent and putative self defence. There came further confusion because the question “why” he fired is ambiguous - OP answered as to what caused him to fire, the question and answer could equally be interpreted as his intent and purpose of firing. Further confusion can come from the word ‘accidentally’ - OP did explicitly define it as meaning just unintentional, but commonly it is also understood to mean ‘without good cause and/or purpose’.

Is there any clue that this is now the court’s understanding of OP’s evidence?

Yes, a big clue. During Dr Vorster’s evidence, she said OP told him after the trial in her meeting that he fired at the noise. This was immediately seized on by Nel as an important contradiction and shift away from his testimony that he fired at the door. Judge Masipa nodded in strong agreement and was the most animated I saw her throughout the whole trial. If OP thought the noise was the door - as he said, then what does it matter? It matters because firing at the door is something a passive observer can witness and remember., it is consistent with involuntary action. But firing at the noise goes further, how can one know he fired at the noise not just the door - it requires thinking and intent, it is inconsistent with involuntary action.

What might this mean for the arguments and judgement?

I don't see how putative private defence can be successfully argued, as this requires intent.
I think involuntary action of this nature cannot reasonably possibly be true, especially as Scholtz and Derman did not offer it as an explanation.
This leaves OP with nowhere to go - neither the court nor his legal team can make up a defence for him.
The prima facie case is strong enough to convict of murder.
If I have time later tonight, I will cite SA case law to support this.
 
I know for sure two things:
1) Nel's closing will be the colossus of summer
2) A big nap will be required for me to be awake at 1:30 a.m. (my time) for trial.
 
I know, huh, Fox? LOL

No, you're absolutely right. Substance is the core but appearance must also be heavily weighed. You do bring up a very excellent point of them waiting a "proper" amount of time, should their decision not take all that long. (Although juries have been known to come back in an hour or two. lol)

IMHO, I think Masipa and her assessors have been making up their minds all along - and I think OP's testimony quickly catapulted their thoughts. LOL

BBM - Yes... and your wording is precisely how I feel about it, but was unable to express it!! LOL

My guess would be that after the DT rested, the Judge (privately in her own mind) knew what verdict was appropriate. In the same way that my gut tells me that both the PT and DT have been running a rough draft of their Closing Arguments from the beginning of trial... adding to, deleting portions, and rewording draft as testimony went along.
 
all jmho

What is OP’s defence?

In substance, his evidence is involuntary action. This eventually became clear. It was repeated over many sessions, and was consistent and never contradicted. In retrospect, his defence actually did not change from the start of the trial and appears quite deliberate.

… respectfully snipped …

I agree with your analysis… Here is what I believe Nel will argue :

1. As per his version, OP consciously and deliberately decided to confront one or more possibly armed intruders in pitch darkness, on his stumps with a ready-to-fire handgun pointed in front of him… stating that the discharging of that gun was an involuntary and unforeseen result is unreasonable… in that scenario, the discharging of the gun was the most probable, reasonable and foreseeable outcome.

2. Involuntary action could explain 1 gunshot, possibly 2… but NEVER 4. The whole premise behind OP's involuntary action is that he reacted instinctively to a startle stimulus : the sound of wood moving… i.e. 1 stimulus = 1 gunshot… but OP had to squeeze and release that trigger 4 times, thus rendering the involuntary action unreasonable. When factoring the delay and change in trajectory between shot 1 and shots 2-3-4, the involuntary action Defence is beyond unreasonable.

3. The grouping of the shots is far too small to be the result of an involuntary action… OP had to aim and readjust his aim to compensate for recoil between shots… the action cannot be partly involuntary and partly deliberate… the grouping demonstrates deliberate and the only thing proffering involuntary is OP.

4. As per his version, OP stated that he backed away from the toilet door, retreated towards the bathroom entrance as he discharged his gun : this was done to reinforce OP's fright and explain the shell casing found in the passageway… IMPOSSIBLE… this was contradicted by ballistic experts Mangena and Wolmarans… OP had to be in front of the bathroom sink to achieve the acute angle with the toilet door… thus OP had to move forward and to the right to fire shots 2-3-4… which also corroborates witness testimony of the pause between gunshot 1 and 2-3-4… pausing, repositioning oneself closer to the danger, and firing 3 additional shots clearly demonstrates a deliberate action, not an involuntary one.
 
Hi. When will the arguments begin tomorrow? Who will go first? I am on Pacific Daylight Time. Thanks.
 
I totally feel cheated, not hearing OP scream like woman! *sniff*

Instead, we were subjected to two female defense witnesses who attempted to scream like a man attempting to scream like a woman!

Seriously, Roux, SERIOUSLY???

At no point did Roux instruct his client to take the stand and scream like a woman - even though that was the heart of his defense!

With essentially ZERO evidentiary challenge from defense to neutralize five ear witnesses hearing a woman’s death screams, OP’s entire story, his claim of innocence is virtually indefensible. Without concrete challenge, the screams must stand as fact. Masipa cannot and will not ignore defense’s massive failure on this crucial count.

This, alone, should convict Oscar Pistorius.

This screaming like a woman has always grated on me. I have to admit when I heard him in Court rambling/crying, to me, he DID sound like a woman BUT an old woman, much like the Mrs Doubtfire who we all know was a man trying to be a woman.
 
Does anyone have any idea how long closing arguments will go on for? An hour? All day? I can't wait to see Nel in action tying everything together for the first time!!!
 
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