Trial Thread, Weekend Discussion May 4-5, 2012 Waiting for Closing Arguments

[Jezbel]

It's also possible that TS said she had to pee because she thought that would stop what he was doing to her, or thought she might be able to escape but couldn't because she was too injured and because TLM wouldn't let her go.

I was thinking that too HK, great minds

 

[crazyladi]

When someone gets arrested for a crime like this, I think the natural tendency is to believe LE must have absolute proof the accused did it...........so most people have absolute certainty of guilt at that point in time.

Exhibit 1............the public outrage and condemnation of MR as soon as he was arrested.

Lots of rumors etc start swirling and that affects my opinion, but we have to presume the jury heard none of it..........so we can still enter the trial from a position of absolute guilt.

The trial starts.........and TLM takes the stand. I listen to her background, and Derstine shedding light on issues of credibility.

I listen to the Crown experts.........lots of evidence presented.........but Derstine manages to get them to admit they have no conclusive proof of a sexual assault........

By now, my belief in absolute guiilt is starting to erode. It now sits at the point where I am "sure" MR is guilty.

I listen to the cellphone records.........and understand MR was there and it corroborates that part of TLM's testimony. I remain "sure" of his guilt..........since the defense doesn't argue the evidence to any great extent.

I watch the video.....but all they show of MR is going to use ATMs. The rest is about TLM during the abduction and the HD store.

Still...........I am "sure" of his guilt.

When I start to consider the evidence, I realize that much of the Crown scientific evidence was non conclusive. The pea coat, the sexual assault, the phone records,..............all non conclusive. There are reasons there is no evidence and why no evidence would be expected..........but that doesn't mean the evidence was ever there to start with.

No proof is no proof.

Then there is the blood spot..........I am now solidly "sure" MR is guilty, but then I learn there is MR sperm all over the back of the front seats.........back to only "sure" he is guilty on the meter.

Then the defense puts a witness up who says she saw TLM entering the school................Huh?............that is a direct contradiction on two different things that TLM stated on the witness stand.

She said she was outside beside a tree....waiting for the first child to come by, and she said she wasn't walking in a hurry with obedient VS following behind.

The witness testimony says that TLM isn't telling the truth on either of those things. If TLM lied about who committed the murder, and where she met VS, and how she walked away with VS down the sidewalk.........what else is she lying about?

Now my guilt meter has fallen below "sure" and is somewhere around "most likely" guilty.

At this point............that would fall below the beyond a reasonable doubt threshold.

The defense and Crown still have their key summaries to give.

If either falters.........it would move the guilt meter either way.

JMO.........

He had the time to destroy evidence. Case closed.

 

[crazyladi]

well put it this way..if TLM had picked TS up OUTSIDE the school the chances are she might have seen that the child was alone BUT she was BAREFACED enough to go inside the school and nab TS..how did she not know that maybe the Grandmother was outside waiting in a car. If TM was outside and the fact she knew TM I think she would have had second thoughts...do you think she entered that school and went up to other children and asked them if they were waiting for anyone and then stuck gold with TS when she answered NO..IF TS was supposed to wait for her brother to pick her up why wouldn't TS say that to TLM, if that were the case...I don't think the TS was going to wait for her brother...that may not have been the plan or else TS has a short attention span and forgot...I believe that somehow that day TLM found out that TS was going to walk home by herself and that is why TLM pounced and more than likely she told TS that TM, her mother sent her to pick her up...JMO simple as that...I will admit that the teachers were lax etc. and the school does not want to take any blame for what happened...When I used to pick my grandson up from his school when his parents could not make it, my name was on a list and even though the teacher knew me, because I was not the parent I still hadto sign a paper, signing him out... This is in Ontario and I would think most school would follow this procedure...If I had been the only one picking him up on a daily basis I more than likely would not have had to sign him out...just saying....someone was lax that day all the way down the line and some people are lying and still are....JMO covering their *advertiser censored* so to speak...for whatever reasons....JMO

He was just as brazen to go to the detention centre after the murder.......but I guess thats a different story.................JMO

 

[Salem]

Because TLM statement makes her look like a naive girl caught up in a sexual deviants fantasies that got out of hand, forcing her to kill VS.
I did because he told me too …
I did it because he had this control over me …
If TLM admitted to knowing VS, it would nullify the kidnapping for rape motive and take away from her gangsta cred making her a target in prison…in my opinion …

I think the theory put out by one of our posters a few days ago, that TLM "knew of" Tori is very plausible. TLM had met TM and it is possible that somewhere in a conversation the fact that TM had children came up - just in passing. TM also lived within a few blocks of TLM, so it is possible that TLM saw TM with the kids at one point in time.

I think it was this familarity that led TLM to Tori. I don't think she "knew" her, but I do think she knew who she was.

Even if TLM admitted that she knew Tori - I don't think that would erase the kidnapping for rape motive. If MR told her to get a child, and TLM "knew of" Tori, TLM would be more comfortable approaching Tori, than a stange child. TLM knew about the dogs and knew she could use that as a conversation starter with this particular child. TLM also knew if someone saw her, she could just say they were talking about the dogs. I really think this provided some level of comfort to TLM, allowing her to go through with the plan to take a child. I also think that MR knew some of this information and I don't doubt that he may have mentioned it to TLM to assure her it would be easy.... and no worries if someone saw her.

If MR was not a part of this - please explain how his blood was mixed with Tori's. Also, please explain how MR's blood, TLM's blood and Tori's blood were all mixed together. I understand the position about the semen mixed with the blood and it is my firm belief that the semen is MR's, in his car, and that, to me, when combined with the other evidence that has been presented, confirms MR's sexual assault of Tori.

I would be very interested to hear the theories of how all three got their blood all mixed up.

Salem

 

[crazyladi]

TLM may have well gone into the school but I don’t believe she walked out with Tori, I think it’s highly unlikely that no one would have seen her actually walk out with her, and what about the Grandfather’s statement about his granddaughter introducing Tori to him and seeing if they could give her a ride home?
Again I think TLM realized she couldn’t walk out with a child and decided then to go wait outside nearby and wait for a child walking on their own.
Next the reason I believe that MR did rape Tori... (I outlined a timeline in a previous thread somewhere) is if he was assaulting Tori down that lane way, what could they have been doing there for so long? There is no way TLM would have killed Tori, they both clean up, move and bury Tori and sit there for what an hour contemplating on what to go eat?? They would have been outta there straight away after burying Tori under boulders. So for those that don’t believe the rape took place what do you think was happening for that time, they would have been there approx 1 ½ hrs? We know they were still in that area when MR’s phone pinged at 7.45pm(ish) and that they got there before it got dark (otherwise silos and other details would not have been seen).
Also if it did not take place how did TLM give such a detailed description of the scene and surrounding area? I highly doubt that if she flew into a rage straight away, she would have had the time to take in her surroundings. I don’t think her and Tori were sitting there chit chatting about puppies while MR went on a long walk without his phone.
If Tori did happen to mess herself, I still would see no reason why she would have taken her skirt off, Tights and underwear maybe, but no way would she leave her skirt off, she is 8 years old and would not sit with strangers half naked in a car!
Someone mentioned previously about MR using a condom (he had plenty in his car) that would make perfect sense as to how the blood/semen got on the door, while he was taking it off and tossing it ready for it to be thrown away with TLM’s coat and the hammer etc.

These are some things that cannot be explained away and which in turn lead me to believe that MR was not an innocent dupe nor did he not have his wicked way with a poor defenceless scared innocent child.

As always JMO

Totally Agree.

 

[crazyladi]

How would MR know the people across the road didn't own the land?

JMO

It didnt matter to him. He knew where to go and thats where they went.

 

[Sillybilly]

I think the theory put out by one of our posters a few days ago, that TLM "knew of" Tori is very plausible. TLM had met TM and it is possible that somewhere in a conversation the fact that TM had children came up - just in passing. TM also lived within a few blocks of TLM, so it is possible that TLM saw TM with the kids at one point in time.

I think it was this familarity that led TLM to Tori. I don't think she "knew" her, but I do think she knew who she was.

<rsbm>

When TM met TLM at CM's house, TM said TLM was high as a kite. IIRC, JG used to go to CM's, so it is possible that TLM "knew of" VS through discussions she had with CM, or overheard.

Lordy, i live in a world of acronyms, or should i say LILIAWOA

 

[brighidin]

When I used to pick my grandson up from his school when his parents could not make it, my name was on a list and even though the teacher knew me, because I was not the parent I still hadto sign a paper, signing him out... This is in Ontario and I would think most school would follow this procedure...If I had been the only one picking him up on a daily basis I more than likely would not have had to sign him out...just saying....


someone was lax that day all the way down the line and some people are lying and still are....JMO covering their *advertiser censored* so to speak...for whatever reasons....JMO

Bolded #1: We haven't heard what the procedures were at Tori's school, however, if what you recall was implemented at her school, then the grandmother's testimony can't possibly be correct.

Bolded #2: Who specifically are you referring to?

thanks and imo

 

[crazyladi]

Bolded #1: We haven't heard what the procedures were at Tori's school, however, if what you recall was implemented at her school, then the grandmother's testimony can't possibly be correct.

Bolded #2: Who specifically are you referring to?

thanks and imo

My thoughts.. She never actually went in the school. JMO

 

[kmclaren]

As the grandfather was never called by the Crown to testify, I think we can assume the story is not accurate.

Of did he testify and I missed it?

JMO.............

Personally, I wouldn't assume it wasn't accurate. What I was thinking about thou, if the Crown did not know who Derstine's one witness was going to be perhaps they had no reason call the grandfather. If they had known someone was going to testify about a white coated woman seen going in the school, perhaps they would have called additional witnesses? Maybe asked Tori's teacher more questions about those last few mintues of Tori in the school, called other parents, teachers, duties, etc. Or ask that parent waiting for her child that TLM/TS passed if she saw when the 2 hooked up.

It seems bizarre to me that the Crown does not know who the defense is going to call - is that really how it works? How can they be expected to respond to any out of left field testimony?

 

[brighidin]

If TLM admitted to knowing VS, it would nullify the kidnapping for rape motive and take away from her gangsta cred making her a target in prison…in my opinion …

Are you suggesting that if one knows, no matter how tangentially, the child they are kidnapping, they would never kidnap them in order to rape them?

Little Danielle Van Dam was kidnapped, raped and killed by her neighbour. Surely she knew of him, was familiar with him, had seen him before. That doesn't make it any less of a rape, or any less of a kidnapping, or any less of a murder.

I wasn't aware of any studies posted that speak to the "gangsta cred" hierarchy in women's prisons in Ontario. How do we know that inmates who kidnap and murder strangers are held in higher regard than those who kidnapped and murdered children they knew?

tia

 

[maxfactor]

Personally, I wouldn't assume it wasn't accurate. What I was thinking about thou, if the Crown did not know who Derstine's one witness was going to be perhaps they had no reason call the grandfather. If they had known someone was going to testify about a white coated woman seen going in the school, perhaps they would have called additional witnesses? Maybe asked Tori's teacher more questions about those last few mintues of Tori in the school, called other parents, teachers, duties, etc. Or ask that parent waiting for her child that TLM/TS passed if she saw when the 2 hooked up.

It seems bizarre to me that the Crown does not know who the defense is going to call - is that really how it works? How can they be expected to respond to any out of left field testimony?

Perhaps that's what the legal arguments are about today, the Crown now wants to call the grandfather as a witness.

 

[maxfactor]

Are you suggesting that if one knows, no matter how tangentially, the child they are kidnapping, they would never kidnap them in order to rape them?

Little Danielle Van Dam was kidnapped, raped and killed by her neighbour. Surely she knew of him, was familiar with him, had seen him before. That doesn't make it any less of a rape, or any less of a kidnapping, or any less of a murder.

I wasn't aware of any studies posted that speak to the "gangsta cred" hierarchy in women's prisons in Ontario. How do we know that inmates who kidnap and murder strangers are held in higher regard than those who kidnapped and murdered children they knew?

tia

IMO inmates who have kidnapped and murdered a child are at the lowest end of the hierarchy whether they knew the child or not.

 

[brighidin]

IMO inmates who have kidnapped and murdered a child are at the lowest end of the hierarchy whether they knew the child or not.

From what I have read, male sex offenders are often put into segregation for their own safety (although the pictures of Karla Holmolka in prison that circulated in the media years back sure told a different story.) Prison culture, from my limited understanding of it, is very complex so I don't see how the sort of generalization in the original post can be made, imo. I was wondering what the poster's opinion was based on.

I just don't understand the focus on whether or not Tori knew who TLM was. I really don't think it matters and even if it were true, it certainly wouldn't nullify anything that transpired, which is why I asked for clarification. )

 

[crazyladi]

Here is the thing. TLM implicated him putting him into this mess and her story before and during the trial. The evidence said she was telling the truth. The fact that a gangster teenage changed her story regarding buying the hammer and wielding the hammer doesnt make a difference because MTR gave her the money to BUY the hammer, and there was no evidence that could put the hammer in either one of their hands so that being said TLM's testimony was not only truthful it explained everything in great detail.

To me her testimony makes the most sense and even though MTR hid and destroyed evidence, the evidence goes hand in hand with what she said.

 

[Tahorn]

Are you suggesting that if one knows, no matter how tangentially, the child they are kidnapping, they would never kidnap them in order to rape them?

Little Danielle Van Dam was kidnapped, raped and killed by her neighbour. Surely she knew of him, was familiar with him, had seen him before. That doesn't make it any less of a rape, or any less of a kidnapping, or any less of a murder.

I wasn't aware of any studies posted that speak to the "gangsta cred" hierarchy in women's prisons in Ontario. How do we know that inmates who kidnap and murder strangers are held in higher regard than those who kidnapped and murdered children they knew?

tia

Just my opinion ... kidnapping and killing a little girl because of a man influenced you would be more acceptable then kidnapping and killing a little girl because of your own unjustified demented sense of vengeance.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Just my opinion ... kidnapping and killing a little girl because of a man influenced you would be more acceptable then kidnapping and killing a little girl because of your own unjustified demented sense of vengeance.

She admitted to bludgeoning TS with the claw end of the hammer, hitting her little head 4 times with it (not trying to be graphic here, just trying to demonstrate why she would lie about anything else?). She wouldn't have had to implicate MTR at all if she wanted to take credit for the whole thing, I think she's crazy enough, after all she did microwave a dog, stab a man with a pen, etc.

 

[crazyladi]

I really think that in the end because MTR didnt take the stand he will be found guilty.

If he would have taken the stand he could have explained more as to what happened that day and at least the jury would have possibly had more to think about.

I think because he didnt they have nothing really to think about.

I am wondering if he actually thought he wasnt going to go to jail because he thought he was going to get off? Just a thought of course and as always JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

I really think that in the end because MTR didnt take the stand he will be found guilty.

If he would have taken the stand he could have explained more as to what happened that day and at least the jury would have possibly had more to think about.

I think because he didnt they have nothing really to think about.

I am wondering if he actually thought he wasnt going to go to jail because he thought he was going to get off? Just a thought of course and as always JMO

I think his own actions after the murder will help with that.

 

[swedie]

I have been thinking about the remote farm lane and found myself wondering about some things.

IF MR knew about this farm lane from his work in the area, it is quite probable that he knew about many others in the area.

Why would he pick a lane that was right across from a house? Anyone from that house could have seen him to in and called the farmer.

People living in the country know who owns the land around them, and will tell each other if they spot someone entering someone else's land.

Often, the land owners are concerned with illegal dumping and don't want their property to become home for cast away junk or construction material.

The lane is also quite narrow and only one lane for the majority of it.

If the farmer had pulled down that lane in his truck..........MR had nowhere to go.

No farmer is simply going to go in and listen to a BS answer and drive away.

They would take a look around and then follow the people out, while noting their licence plate number.

In my opinion, MR took a big chance going down that lane, if his intention was to be there awhile.

JMO..............

The homeowner across the road would not be able to see what was going on at the top of that laneway near the rock pile as it was secluded and out of view from the house. MR probably took notice as to whether there was a vehicle in the driveway of the house before entering. Other then that I don't think MR gave a patootie as good things were coming his way (in his sick, twisted mind), mere minutes from pulling into that laneway.

In reality, any laneway would be the same; taking a risk someone would see them. MOO