GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #2

[ThinkHard]

What am I missing in what I've said? It makes sense to me! Just for example, if she was to meet with someone at the Galata tower at 11am, she could take a stroll across the bridge and even stop for some lunch before a planned meeting up with Taylan at 12:45.

But wouldn't she have been spotted on camera with this person? If she was meeting someone else at the tower, why would she have texted Taylan at 1130 saying she was coming down from the tower and asking if he would meet her, if she was with someone else? That doesn't make sense to me.

Plus she was seen taking pictures on the bridge at 1215 by herself. Conceivable she could have had lunch with someone else on the bridge, but someone would have remember this and reported seeing her with someone at a cafe , like their waiter.

She was seen again at 1:15 on the serkeci cam again ALONE.

So I guess I just don't get the logic, that she met up with a perp on the bridge for lunch, they went their separate ways, only for him to wind up at the wall and attack her...

... And even though she had plans with someone else?

I don't doubt someone met her at those walls, I just don't see the logic that they also met up with her earlier that day.

In just my opinion that I would think it would be more likely that when she didn't her from Taylan, she either got ahold of another acquaintance and asked what they were up to....or she received a message from another acquaintance asking what she was up to....and since she hadn't heard from Taylan (and probably felt he blew her off) made plans with them.

 

[ThinkHard]

I'm totally torn right now.

If the DNA report turns out to be FALSE:
80% Taylan, 10% random, 10% other guy pal or drug dealer

If the DNA report turns out to be TRUE:
60% random, 40% other guy pal or drug dealer

Yes, I'm that useless!

Whatever the truth is I hope it's discovered, and any and all accountable parties are held responsible.

 

[ToutCa]

New article in Turkish press with fullest account of SS's itinerary in Istanbul that we have seen:

A lot of the rest is recap, but it would be GREAT if Yashim or Lavy could go over it and translate anything of interest.

Here's the link:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType=RadikalDetayV3&ArticleID=1120674&CategoryID=77


And here's the crummy google translated account of her itinerary:

The police took the young woman criminology chronicle of Istanbul:
January 8: Siarre, Tarlabaşı will be settled home.
January 9: to get to know he's staying to explore the area around the address. Meets the grocery store, walking around places to eat nearby.
January 10: Photographer, at noon leaving the house and going through the Blue Mosque. Here, the Blue Mosque, the Serpentine Column and the Column wandering around taking pictures of knitting. Tarlabasi and then coming back.
January 11: First, after going through the Galata Bridge Karakoy going. Fisheries under the bridge eating, after taking photographs of Istanbul from the top of the bridge.
January 12: Sultanahmet and the bazaar Arcade goes again walking around with the 3 Ahmet fountain.
January 13: Lunch hours by ferry cruise boats on the beach and getting down to Eminönü. Viewing Istanbul from the sea. Taylan K. meet with.

January 14: Amateur photographer, from where it continues to wander around Eminonu. Touring the Spice Market and Grand Bazaar. Shopping doing and taking photographs. In the evening after dark the Galata Tower, Taksim, going round and round. Walking around the tower, takes a photograph, and then the Arab Mosque, Galata viewing.
January 15: Home from the Sarai Sierra, going from Ataturk International Airport and the plane goes to Amsterdam.
16-17-18 January: Yurdışında.
January 19: Ataturk Airport is the entry again and goes Tarlabaşı address.
January 20: Beyoğlu is overwhelming. Going to the mall and walking around İstiklal Avenue. Taylan K. meet with.
January 21: the day she disappeared ... At 11:30 on the Galata Bridge, around 13:15 in Sirkeci is seen in the vicinity.
February 2: Date of lifeless body at around 16:00 in the wall bur's vestibule.

 

[Trino]

Have these cases been solved?

A Swedish tourist was raped at knife point in the same place in January 2007, and in March 2010 a Japanese girl suffered a chillingly similar attack to Sarai's murder when she was bludgeoned about the head with a rock and raped, according to Turkish daily newspaper Takvim.

Another 24-year-old Turkish girl was attacked at knife point at the same spot but managed to fight off her attacker and flee to safety

 

[belimom]

I know there are different schools of thought here - and I'm glad we can all voice our own theory. Mine is this: unless Tarkan is a serial rapist, he did not murder Sarai. Even if murder is higher among lovers, I don't believe he had that much of an emotional investment to trigger the rage that a murder would require. Even if he did have feelings for her that were rejected (which I don't believe is true), it does not mean he would then murder her. If he is that easily angered and flies into rages over being rejected by a woman, there would be telltale signs in his past and in previous relationships.

I'm really thinking that he is innocent. I would say there is about a 10% chance in my mind that he did it, but the odds - to me - overwhelmingly in favor of another acquaintance.

I can totally see why some may think he did it, or why it could possibly be random. We really just don't know.

 

[ThinkHard]

Have these cases been solved?

A Swedish tourist was raped at knife point in the same place in January 2007, and in March 2010 a Japanese girl suffered a chillingly similar attack to Sarai's murder when she was bludgeoned about the head with a rock and raped, according to Turkish daily newspaper Takvim.

Another 24-year-old Turkish girl was attacked at knife point at the same spot but managed to fight off her attacker and flee to safety

I don't know if that's been determined. Someone posted that information yesterday.

However we discussed a couple things about it. The biggest being, that it still really doesn't tell us anything, because if a local knew of those incidents and was trying to make it look random, it would be a good spot to choose, because it would be easier for people to assume it was a random attack.

The other thing, is that two of those cases involved knives, which is not consistent with Sarai's murder. The rock bludgeoning is spooky. But we don't really know much more about those cases.

We don't know if those women were just randomly walking by there, and thus randomly attacked. Or if someone had led them there.

So its at least my opinion that of what we know of those cases, it still could make the case go in so many directions. It doesn't seem to really help us understand anymore about it.

3 incidents in 10 years, really isn't that high, I would think.

 

[Trino]

Three cases in 10 years...

My point in asking if the cases have been solved, is asking if they were ignored, i.e. is the culprit still around.

 

[ToutCa]

We need native-speakers Yashim or Lavy, but from what I can tell the Radikal article also says:

-- Amsterdam Ammer had prior drugs convictions
(I think we all pretty much suspected this -- question is, was it small-time stuff for personal use, or was he a player in something bigger? No word on that here...)

-- Bizarrely, from what I can tell from the atrocious google translation, this article is saying the iPad and phone were found with the body?! Maybe the translation is just wrong, or the article is just wrong, because this contradicts what we have heard so far:

Turkish speakers, here's the key section:

Saat 19:00’a doğru cesedin kimliği netleşti. Bulunan cansız kadın bedeni 33 yaşındaki Sarai Sierra’ya aitti. İlk bulgulara göre 1 hafta, 10 gün önce öldürülmüştü. Bir yerden düştüğü veya kafasının taşla ezildiği gibi bir görüntü vardı. Vücudunda çizikler ve morluklar vardı. Montu, pantolonu, Ipad ve cep telefonu yanında yoktu, fakat küpelerine 3 kat şeklinde kolunda sarılı duran altın bilekliğine dokunulmamıştı. İlk belirlemelere göre tecavüz edilmemişti. Sierra’nın tarihi yerlere ve tren yollarına merakı acaba o bölgeye kendi isteyerek mi gitti sorusunu akıllara getirdi.

Any help? LINK

 

[Elley Mae]

I don't know all that has been reported as I go back and forth between two states one with TV one without. If it is true about T.K. and Sarai meeting once and then their supposedly meeting that didn't happen according to T.K. If it is true that he is married has his wife had her DNA taken for test? Is it possibly that she found out and set Sarai up to meet her instead? jmo idk

 

[ThinkHard]

Three cases in 10 years...

My point in asking if the cases have been solved, is asking if they were ignored, i.e. is the culprit still around.

Good question. And it would be nice to know more about these cases.

But because we don't know more, we also don't know if this three incidents were all by the same perp.

 

[CMac2]

ToutCa, my Turkish in not advantage here. You also got it right. All I am saying is what she is saying in that very sentence is not making sense to a local like me. I am sure if the columnist had reread her article, she might have edited it.

Are you saying Turks make grammatical errors? I knew it.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't know all that has been reported as I go back and forth between two states one with TV one without. If it is true about T.K. and Sarai meeting once and then their supposedly meeting that didn't happen according to T.K. If it is true that he is married has his wife had her DNA taken for test? Is it possibly that she found out and set Sarai up to meet her instead? jmo idk

Though this seems unlikely I have definitely wondered about the possibility of this as well.....I wonder...

 

[tardislass]

New article in Turkish press with fullest account of SS's itinerary in Istanbul that we have seen:

A lot of the rest is recap, but it would be GREAT if Yashim or Lavy could go over it and translate anything of interest.

Here's the link:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType=RadikalDetayV3&ArticleID=1120674&CategoryID=77


And here's the crummy google translated account of her itinerary:

Sounds like she did hit the tourist areas and photograph things. As the for the other crimes in the area the Japanese one sounds similar to this one but not enough info to say whether it was same.

 

[english]

Originally Posted by english
What am I missing in what I've said? It makes sense to me! Just for example, if she was to meet with someone at the Galata tower at 11am, she could take a stroll across the bridge and even stop for some lunch before a planned meeting up with Taylan at 12:45.

But wouldn't she have been spotted on camera with this person? If she was meeting someone else at the tower, why would she have texted Taylan at 1130 saying she was coming down from the tower and asking if he would meet her, if she was with someone else? That doesn't make sense to me.

Plus she was seen taking pictures on the bridge at 1215 by herself. Conceivable she could have had lunch with someone else on the bridge, but someone would have remember this and reported seeing her with someone at a cafe , like their waiter.

She was seen again at 1:15 on the serkeci cam again ALONE.

So I guess I just don't get the logic, that she met up with a perp on the bridge for lunch, they went their separate ways, only for him to wind up at the wall and attack her...

... And even though she had plans with someone else?

I don't doubt someone met her at those walls, I just don't see the logic that they also met up with her earlier that day.

In just my opinion that I would think it would be more likely that when she didn't her from Taylan, she either got ahold of another acquaintance and asked what they were up to....or she received a message from another acquaintance asking what she was up to....and since she hadn't heard from Taylan (and probably felt he blew her off) made plans with them.

I meant that she'd met someone in the Galata district at say 11am. Their business was concluded by 11:05 so she was then free for the rest of the day and tried to contact Taylan to meet up with for the afternoon. I'm well aware that she was alone on the bridge and in Sirkeci. If it looked like I was suggesting she walked across the bridge with someone I apologise that maybe my thought process did not transfer well to my keyboard.

 

[ToutCa]

I don't know all that has been reported as I go back and forth between two states one with TV one without. If it is true about T.K. and Sarai meeting once and then their supposedly meeting that didn't happen according to T.K. If it is true that he is married has his wife had her DNA taken for test? Is it possibly that she found out and set Sarai up to meet her instead? jmo idk

Good thinking, but the latest reports say Taylan is single.

This kind of violence is almost exclusively performed by male perps -- in any country.

 

[Yashim]

New article in Turkish press with fullest account of SS's itinerary in Istanbul that we have seen:

A lot of the rest is recap, but it would be GREAT if Yashim or Lavy could go over it and translate anything of interest.

Here's the link:

http://www.radikal.com.tr/Radikal.aspx?aType=RadikalDetayV3&ArticleID=1120674&CategoryID=77


And here's the crummy google translated account of her itinerary:

ToutCa, there is nothing new here. Most of the new stuff is picked off from the US press. SS had started saving money for the trip two months prior ro leaving the US: Told parents that "Istanbul is a great place to take photos."

Let me see what I can do with the itinerary. Because if true SS seems to be an innocent tourist. She didn't post many pics, but if she had something to hide, it's then she would definitely have. Don't you think so?

The last paragraph has an interesting title: Polisin Gazeteci İsyanı which google translates as "police reporter revolt" :floorlaugh:

It should translate as "Police furious at news reporters", even better "Police furious at media"

Seems Istanbul Police is isn't happy with the details made up by the press. Suggesting almost none is true. So I feel ambivalent about translating the paragraph you later posted.

 

[CMac2]

The NY Times article mentions they were separated as of 2005, but said nothing of what happened after that.

A few days ago the Turkish press said something about she and her husband having problems @6 months ago and her moving in with her mom around that time.

And then you have the way the husband conducted himself once she vanished.

I would say their relationship status as of the moment SS took off for Istanbul is about as clear as mud to me.

The same NY Times article (just make the mud less clear) also said her parents knew of no marital problems as of the time of the trip to Turkey. Didn't talk about what may or may not have happened 6 mos ago.

Still, I think a young woman with no outward signs of marital discord could get caught up in a torrid affair in a far-away land just as easily as a woman who shows all kinds of outward signs of marital discord too.

SS doesn't seem to overly share her personal life, if you look at IG and other public places she was known to roam. People who "knew" her in Turkey- at least one of them- didn't even know she was married, which is pretty basic.

I know NOTHING about you, ToutCa- but I know you're married.

 

[KuriousKev]

Please don't rush into conclusions. The columnist is saying that it's possible that all these facts about SS and her trip may still indicate her motive to visit Istanbul was purely touristic & artistic. That "masculine" remark doesn't make sense. Many Turkish women choose to wear jeans to avoid the "male gaze."

The jeans SS wore were very fitted not loose at all. She's also seen wearing leggins in some pictures while she was abroad. Fitted jeans and leggins, for me at least, accentuates a woman's figure. Not saying anything is wrong with the two just sharing my thoughts on your comment.

 

[ThinkHard]

Originally Posted by english
What am I missing in what I've said? It makes sense to me! Just for example, if she was to meet with someone at the Galata tower at 11am, she could take a stroll across the bridge and even stop for some lunch before a planned meeting up with Taylan at 12:45.



I meant that she'd met someone in the Galata district at say 11am. Their business was concluded by 11:05 so she was then free for the rest of the day and tried to contact Taylan to meet up with for the afternoon. I'm well aware that she was alone on the bridge and in Sirkeci. If it looked like I was suggesting she walked across the bridge with someone I apologise that maybe my thought process did not transfer well to my keyboard.

I guess that could be possible. Who knows this case is so confusing.

What's your thoughts on who she would have been meeting at that time and why?

 

[ToutCa]

ToutCa, there is nothing new here. Most of the new stuff is picked off from the US press. SS had started saving money for the trip two months prior ro leaving the US: Told parents that "Istanbul is a great place to take photos."

Let me see what I can do with the itinerary. Because if true SS seems to be an innocent tourist. She didn't post many pics, but if she had something to hide, it's then she would definitely have. Don't you think so?

The last paragraph has an interesting title: Polisin Gazeteci İsyanı which google translates as "police reporter revolt" :floorlaugh:

It should translate as "Police furious at news reporters", even better "Police furious at media"

Seems Istanbul Police is isn't happy with the details made up by the press. Suggesting almost none is true. So I feel ambivalent about translating the paragraph you later posted.

I respect your feelings -- but it does state iPad/phone found with body (and you're saying that is probably a press lie). Very strange.

I'm puzzled by the itinerary and all the photos they are talking about. If they really don't have the iPad and she only posted 5 Istanbul photos online, how do they know she took all these other pictures everywhere? Where are those pictures?

And how in the heck did they come up with such a specific itinerary? Wow.

Something's up with the lack of photos posted and then these statements she took lots of photos. There are many interpretations, but something's up there for sure.

The assertion that Amsterdam Ammer had prior drug convictions is striking to me as well. If it's true, I wonder if they are minor or suggestive of something more serious?