GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[Herat]

From Daily Mail
......

Meanwhile, a witness has told Istanbul police that he saw Sierra speaking to a different man outside the city's Sultanahmet Mosque on January 11, just days after she arrived in the country.

He handed her a card and as she left the mosque, she took a walk with him and four or five other men, the witness claimed, Turkish newspaper Milliyet reported.

......

The witness said he then saw Sierra talking with the same man on January 21 at Topkapi Palace - the day she was due to fly home, but she never boarded the flight.

......

I don't believe these could be credible. Look at some of the street view shots from the Yandex site and there are thousands of people out in busy areas. You would have to be very very very distinctive to be singled out to be remembered on two different days. Like a 7 foot tall Chinese basketball player or something. Not a petite dark haired woman conservatively dressed. Just don't buy it.

 

[ThinkHard]

From Daily Mail
......

Meanwhile, a witness has told Istanbul police that he saw Sierra speaking to a different man outside the city's Sultanahmet Mosque on January 11, just days after she arrived in the country.

He handed her a card and as she left the mosque, she took a walk with him and four or five other men, the witness claimed, Turkish newspaper Milliyet reported.

......

The witness said he then saw Sierra talking with the same man on January 21 at Topkapi Palace - the day she was due to fly home, but she never boarded the flight.

......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2277101/Sarai-Sierra-Turkish-police-hone-suspects-murder-New-York-mother-bludgeoned-death-Istanbul--including-Ammer-Reduron-stayed-Amsterdam.html


Were the above witness statements ever falsified?

How does her being seen in Topkapi Palace fit into the chain of events on that day she was murdered?

If she was really in Topkapi Palace, it should be in the afternoon, at least after her walk towards Sarayburnu.

Maybe security camera footage and similar stuff makes up the 95%, which LE is keeping to itself at the moment.

I agree Yashim. I've seen mention of those reported sittings before and always wondered how much truth was in them.

Topkapi does open at 9am....so could she have gone there first thing? But then we are told she left her apartment 11:30am so that wouldn't make sense.

And given the supposed path of her walk we are led to believe she walked from her apt, down istikal, sat Galata tower, down the hill, crosses Galata bridge, hugs the sea side and continues on along Kennedy to Sarayburnu and cankurtan.

Though if she did leave her apartment at 11:30 and was just past eminonu at 1:30...I doubt that walk would take 2 hrs. Could she have ventured up to sultanahmet at some point, and then back down to serkeci? Seems unlikely.

Or could she have gone to Topkapi like you said in the afternoon...which could only mean she was still alive past the supposed, shortly after 1:30pm last sighting of her in cankurtan. And if she did go to topkapi after that supposed last sighting...then the whole idea that she wandered up there after going off camera and was attacked then would be blown.

Certainly makes you wonder. Because its precisely pieces of information like that, which could completely change how we approach scenarios for what happened to her.

 

[ThinkHard]

Which footage are you referring to? I didn't see one with the persons jacket slung over her shoulder, and I perceived a large reddish object that looked heavy,....someone even suggested a rug....is that the 'brown bag'? Is there a clearer video floating around? Thanks.

Just an FYI, rugs are usually put in these cheap, cube shaped, black zipper bags, because most can be folded. If they are too big for these bags they would ship them.

But rugs are not cheap, even small ones. So I doubt she was in the market for a rug.


.......unless it was a rug that had been soaked in liquid cocaine in order to disguises the illegal drugs......I'm kidding this part is a joke!

 

[SmilingSweetly]

U.S. citizen Sarai Sierra may have been killed by a group of two or three people, according to the Istanbul police, who reached this conclusion following inspections conducted in the murder area.

Officials said a group may have helped the murderer carry Sierra’s body to the ancient city walls.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/si...eople.aspx?pageID=238&nID=41446&NewsCatID=341

 

[ThinkHard]

I am seeing something wrapped in brown packaging paper. And her arm is over the package holding it close to her body. And I believe she is still wearing a dark brown jacket.

Sorry, I might have sounded like I'm fortunetelling looking into a coffee cup.

I wonder if she left her place carrying that package that morning. If they have 20 videos of her. You would think they could place aproximately were she went from not having it to having it.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't believe these could be credible. Look at some of the street view shots from the Yandex site and there are thousands of people out in busy areas. You would have to be very very very distinctive to be singled out to be remembered on two different days. Like a 7 foot tall Chinese basketball player or something. Not a petite dark haired woman conservatively dressed. Just don't buy it.

Maybe, I think your thought process is more correct then incorrect. Though I will say I have personally been recognized by the same street vendor in Istanbul on separate occasions.

Haha maybe its the same guy, maybe he has an incredible eidetic memory.

 

[delal]

A woman alone stands out more here, especially a pretty one.

I'm wondering if the police found tracks or footprints that led them to the possibility of several people being involved.

 

[stmarysmead]

Maybe SS met some of these charming hustlers early in her trip...as that witness alleged...and they offered her a tour and lunch, and flattered her. She may have taken their card but,at that point in her trip, felt she had lots of Internet friends to show her around.

But on that last day, perhaps disappointed in those Internet friends, and unable to reach Taylan....maybe she decided to contact these men for one last time to see the sights of Istanbul, or have a meal. Maybe she dressed up a bit, because they had flattered her and talked so sweetly.

In this way, she might have walked into a trap where several men did indeed participate in the killing.

 

[Fantazteko]

Greetings all,
The single one thing I find hard to imagine, having seen the walls and the environment, is how there could have been a fierce, deadly struggle without people taking notice. I think I saw homeless locals or rambling strangers every 30 meters or so. Is the murder site that shielded from road and adjoining caves? Anything I've missed upthread about the locals' actions that day or later? If they heard something but were unable or unwilling to interfere, how could they not even talk about it so word would have reached LE sooner? If they knew there was a body, how could they stay and wait, only to leave when LE found it?

On my walk that day, I remember wondering why some of the more elaborately made fireplaces between the waterside riffraff looked so deserted. I remember the gloomy look on the faces of an older homeless guy and a very young one. I thought it was a trait of their gloomy life. Or had they seen something? Where are they now?

What you have written here reminded me of the murder of Kitty Genovese.

For those who are unfamiliar, this woman was attacked, stabbed, beaten and raped. There were many witnesses, but due to a number of factors, nobody actually realized the gravity of the crime.

It went unreported for more than half an hour, giving the killer time and a second chance to finish her off.

Witnesses believed it was just a lover’s quarrel. Perhaps this is what happened with Sarai. Somebody overheard a struggle, and simply dismissed it as an everyday domestic dispute.

It can also explain why nobody reported a crime being committed from the day she was allegedly killed until the 2nd of Feb.

In many patriarchal cultures, domestic violence, and violence against women is typical. I know very little about Turkish culture to say this about couples there, but I’m sure it happens.

Anyway, maybe somebody did see or hear something, but just didn’t wish to get involved.

 

[ThinkHard]

What you have written here reminded me of the murder of Kitty Genovese.

For those who are unfamiliar, this woman was attacked, stabbed, beaten and raped. There were many witnesses, but due to a number of factors, nobody actually realized the gravity of the crime.

It went unreported for more than half an hour, giving the killer time and a second chance to finish her off.

Witnesses believed it was just a lover’s quarrel. Perhaps this is what happened with Sarai. Somebody overheard a struggle, and simply dismissed it as an everyday domestic dispute.

It can also explain why nobody reported a crime being committed from the day she was allegedly killed until the 2nd of Feb.

In many patriarchal cultures, domestic violence, and violence against women is typical. I know very little about Turkish culture to say this about couples there, but I’m sure it happens.

Anyway, maybe somebody did see or hear something, but just didn’t wish to get involved.

It's called the Bystander Effect...this is always the case psych 101 professors use to illustrate this group think phenomenon.

Typically however it is a result of believing someone else is already doing something about it so you don't have to.

Could apply in this case. I can see how some people could just feel, "not my problem".

But then again if it was multiple perps I have a harder time believing the a Turkish male, especially an older one, wouldnt kick into father figure protective role to protect a lone tiny female.

Also given the location, if someone heard, they might be less willing to believe that there was someone else there to help, and/or that it was a domestic issue that did not involve them.

 

[Herat]

.

Maybe security camera footage and similar stuff makes up the 95%, which LE is keeping to itself at the moment.

I think LE doesn't have this case all tied up in a neat package yet and there is substantial information that conflicts or does not concurr with the random Z attack.

Where is the media publicity about a manhunt for Z? A few little bits here and there (the fire video), but not like the entire country is on alert from what we have seen. For example the recent manhunt in Los Angeles completely consumed the media for a week.

Re: earrings and headphones

Paranoid schizophrenics can project paranoid ideations onto other objects or people- "the dog is reporting on me to the aliens" "the TV is monitoring my movements" etc.

I can see the earrings being associated with the headphones as part of a paranoid ideation- "the CIA is monitoring me and talking to her through the headphones and the earrings." He would want to leave them there after the attack, rather than take them with him.

 

[Herat]

I am seeing something wrapped in brown packaging paper. And her arm is over the package holding it close to her body. And I believe she is still wearing a dark brown jacket.

Sorry, I might have sounded like I'm fortunetelling looking into a coffee cup.

If that is a brown paper bag, where is she carrying the I-pad?

I think it is a brown leather or fabric handbag of sorts.

I find it significant that she isn't carrying The Big Green Bag as she appears to have been most all other times.

 

[SANDOVAL]

Just an FYI, rugs are usually put in these cheap, cube shaped, black zipper bags, because most can be folded. If they are too big for these bags they would ship them.

But rugs are not cheap, even small ones. So I doubt she was in the market for a rug.


.......unless it was a rug that had been soaked in liquid cocaine in order to disguises the illegal drugs......I'm kidding this part is a joke!

Yes, i know you are joking
I mentioned that someone said could it be a small rug only to demonstrate that whatever the person was carrying, it didn't look like a 'brown bag' to me, on the blurry video. I was asking if there is a better version of the video that I had not seen.
The still photo of someone who might or might not be SS, shows a red shirt,leathery type jacket and bell bottom blue pants. The walking video of someone who might or might not be SS shows a similar outfit. I did not see a photo with jacket slung over shoulder, nor tied around waist.
The red shirt woman was pulled from the sea on Feb. 1st. I believe (?), and supposed body of SS found Feb 2nd.
Even if the 2 camera evidences of a red shirt, long hair lady turned out to actually be the 'woman from the sea', (mistakenly thought to be photos of SS) who died coincidentally to SS we are still going round in circles.
The identity of the drowned lady is never mentioned, 2 witnesses supposedly saw that person jump from a bridge.......I turn the page and find
the whole next chapter has been torn out of the book.....

 

[ThinkHard]

A woman alone stands out more here, especially a pretty one.

I'm wondering if the police found tracks or footprints that led them to the possibility of several people being involved.

True. Though one could argue that a lone attractive female would stand out in just about any city in the world.

I think standing out and being in danger are two separate things. I don't think just because a woman stands out in Istanbul (or any city) because she is attractive and she is alone automatically put her in dangerous.

I think it just makes you more susceptible to advances and cat calls. But if you ignore these things, and don't trust strangers, I don't think your safety is in jeopardy. I ignore cat calls in NYC after all....why would one start paying attention to them in a foreign city.

I will note this though. I feel in Istanbul staring (aka people watching) is much more social acceptable then it is in the US. And if an attractive woman finds herself in a culture where staring is more acceptable then what she is used too, she could definetly feel creeped out by being "stared" at.

 

[ThinkHard]

Some thoughts that occurred to me. If LE now thinks they are hunting for multiple people involved, and believed that multiple people helped move the body, I wonder if they believe the help in moving was from one cave to another....or if they have other information in which they believe she was killed elsewhere and now these multiple helpers, helped move her to the wall at all.

 

[SANDOVAL]

U.S. citizen Sarai Sierra may have been killed by a group of two or three people, according to the Istanbul police, who reached this conclusion following inspections conducted in the murder area.

Officials said a group may have helped the murderer carry Sierra’s body to the ancient city walls.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/si...eople.aspx?pageID=238&nID=41446&NewsCatID=341

Thank you for the update.

 

[Yashim]

Some thoughts that occurred to me. If LE now thinks they are hunting for multiple people involved, and believed that multiple people helped move the body, I wonder if they believe the help in moving was from one cave to another....or if they have other information in which they believe she was killed elsewhere and now these multiple helpers, helped move her to the wall at all.

If multiple people are involved, I'd say she is targeted and this is a planned attack.

No murderer calls for such help at the risk of creating witnesses who may turn him in or bargain with the LE.

And if this is a two-three people thing, why the need for such a messy crime?

 

[SANDOVAL]

I don't know - I would tie my jacket around my waist to free my arms....just seems she was holding it over the shoulder with her hand

Please could you post this picture you are referring to?

 

[Yashim]

This is not to say that Ziya cannot be the ruthless murderer of SS, but until proven otherwise, Ziya's falling off from the city walls onto some shrubs is at least as convincing as an American woman, with financial difficulties, going abroad to visit Istanbul to take photos with an iPad which are nowhere to be found, making sidetrips, being killed by a psycho path who likes humiliating his victim by pulling their pants down and who can also make good use of all the stuff women put into their handbags, someone buying a second-hand/stolen iPad only to use it twice to skype with someone in the US....

 

[Herat]

or if they have other information in which they believe she was killed elsewhere and now these multiple helpers, helped move her to the wall at all.

I'm taking these as facts:

1. Her body was found deliberately hidden in a walled arch behind the wall.

2. She was attacked and killed with a rock approximately 100m from where the body was hidden. An attack site and a weapon have been found.

3. She is observed on surveillance cameras heading towards the general area where she was attacked.

4. It is documented in NYC photographic trips that she has before been around railroad lines, graffiti, and old buildings. (ie: It's not like she has only ever been observed shopping at Neiman Marcus and getting manis and pedis- photographing in places like this is what she does.)

I surmise:

5. The place she was attacked is secluded from ordinary visitors and law-abiding locals and would be apparent only to those who frequent the area. Limits the population of potential perps.

Now to that I add these questions:
Would drug dealers frequent places behind the walls to sell / buy stuff?
Would people with contraband frequent places behind the wall to sell / buy stuff?
Again- could she be involved in drugs or other contraband and that also is a reason to place here in an unlikely and isolated spot?

(My thinking is that every day some tourists likely climb that diagonal path up over to walk along the wall (we saw LE, CSI, and media doing it). It gives a view of the Bosphorus, and some atmosphere of decaying empires. Probably 10-20 tourists are up there every day in the tourist season. Fewer in winter, but it is not an unusual occurence and is noted and tolerated by the local vagrants. However, someone down on the ground or railroad tracks is not a common occurrence and is viewed with suspicion - police, train cops, etc. A lone female wandering there is very unusual and would create a different degree of suspicion or interest.