TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[GrilledCheezy]

Just got this notification from AP, "Officials: Air Force didn't submit Texas church shooter's criminal history to FBI, as required by Pentagon rules."

Somebody screwed up BIG TIME.

 

[Inthedetails]

Just got this notification from AP, "Officials: Air Force didn't submit Texas church shooter's criminal history to FBI, as required by Pentagon rules."

Somebody screwed up BIG TIME.

uh oh.

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

There IS some boot shaking going on! MOO

"Air Force Failed to Submit Texas Shooter's Criminal History"

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/nat...exas-Shooter-Buy-Assault-Rifle-455643723.html

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[Cryptic]

I forgot to add that this wasn't an Article 15.; those are usually at the company level and there can be extra duty. A field grade Article 15 is usually a precursor to a court martial however. It usually involves reduction in rank and pay and if the investigating officer finds cause for a summary court martial it escalates from there. He was convicted by court martial and under confinement for a year. After he served his sentence he was then discharged.

He may well have been. The reports do say "court martial". At the same time, battalion commanders can also hold Article 15 administrative procedures and assign a penalty of 1 year confinement, bad conduct discharge.

Then factor in that he may have started out as a judicial Court Martial with the potential for a criminal conviction, but then moved to an administrative Article 15 with the maximum punishment being given.

The report also refers to a 'Colonel'. Battalion commanders are Lieutenant Colonels. The more senior Colonel officer implies a full Court Martial. In the end, I think it is best to wait for the military to clarify whether it was administrative or judicial.

Maybe it was a plea deal.
Also from the article.
“He pled to intentionally doing it.”

This syntax, instead of "pled guilty", seems to imply admitting the facts in an administrative hearing (article 15) and not a full court martial.

 

[enelram]

Just got this notification from AP, "Officials: Air Force didn't submit Texas church shooter's criminal history to FBI, as required by Pentagon rules."

Somebody screwed up BIG TIME.

This is already becoming a political 'Hot Potato', abctv news just had a long segment on this locally and apparently Air force
says they requested additional funds from Congress to have this info put into the national database and Congress
turned them down.

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.thetrace.org/rounds/military-domestic-abuse-nics/

 

[Woodland]

Fwiw imo these US 'shooter' threads residing in the 'Up To The Minute' forum is denying reality - which many US citizens seem to be doing where multiple deaths of innocent people are concerned. The same threads are opened in 'Crimes In The News' yet they are closed and morphed into 'up to the minute'. They are crimes - at least to the rest of the world.

Have only read maybe 6 pages of thread #1 - the denial is overwhelming. It's not the easy access to rapid fire guns, or the fact that the US thinks having rapid fire guns are fine, it's everyone/everything else that is to blame. Denial imo and enabling the next person thinking of shooting up a public place. How long will it take to beat this shooting, or the Mandalay Hotel shooting?

One post I did catch reminded me that not all US citizens think that this unique situation to the US is OK - that poster said they were embarrassed for their country. Another poster then chastised that poster for their audacity to speak such a thought - claiming the US is the greatest country in the world.

Just want to say to the chastising poster - not anymore my friend. You stand alone in your country now with that thought - and complicity comes with denying there is a problem. Will read the headlines of the next mass shooting, but will not be interested in any details - have already read them.

Jmo.

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

Known to beat DOGS and only worked 5 1/2 weeks this summer. Why say "he wasn't a good fit" when his background check wasn't passed???

"He also ran into trouble with the law as a civilian, according to court records, which indicate he was cited for misdemeanor cruelty to animals in August 2014"


"All our security guards must pass a criminal background check through the Texas Department of Public Safety," she continued

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-church-shooting-suspect-fired-security-guard-job/story?id=50961870

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[gitana1]

He broke his stepsons skull in 2012.... WHY wasn't it a Dishonorable? Talk about beyond bad conduct.....

https://nyti.ms/2hKKqrT

ETA: https://legaldictionary.net/dishonorable-discharge/

This has a summary of the types of discharges. I posted it in Thread 1. The distinction here is that you can still buy a weapon with a bad conduct discharge and that also allowed him to get a permit as a Security Guard. Now I know why I couldn't find the record of his court martial... how did they think they were going to hide what he did?


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It does not matter. He was convicted of a domestic violence -related crime and thus federally, could not even possess, let alone buy, a firearm.

Someone else posted that the length of his sentence precluded gun ownership as well, which I did not know.

 

[Elley Mae]

Air Force admits bureaucratic error allowed Texas shooter to buy gun used in mass shooting

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a...buy-gun-used-in-mass-shooting/article/2639807

 

[Only4Justice]

The abuse of the dog REALLY bothers me. God Bless the victim’s families. sicko.


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[gitana1]

I don't know.

Likewise, it is not clear whether he was given an administrative conviction or a criminal conviction. Though the length of his sentence (one year) implies criminal, administrative punishments can also be up to a year:

Though breaking a child's skull is not a minor offense, perhaps other elements made a criminal conviction difficult?

3.The commander may dispose of the offense with nonjudicial punishment. Article 15, UCMJ, is a means of handling minor offenses requiring immediate corrective action. A minor offense is one for which the maximum sentence imposable at a court-martial would not include a dishonorable discharge or confinement in excess of one year.

Administrative punishments do not include time. NJP is not the same as an administrative punishment. It is the mid-range between that and court martial. This guy was court martialed.

The man authorities have identified as the shooter in the massacre at a Texas church was given a bad conduct discharge from the Air Force three years ago after being court-martialed for assault, a military spokesperson confirmed Sunday.

Kelley was convicted and sentenced to 12 months in custody and given a bad conduct discharge, Stefanek said. He was discharged in 2014.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-pol-essential-washington-updates-alleged-texas-shooter-was-court-1509937194-htmlstory.html

Likewise, his discharge status indicates court martial, not NJP or administrative discipline:

NJP is used by commanders to deal with misconduct issues that are too serious to be dealt with using administrative corrective procedures, but are minor enough to not necessarily be appropriately handled through a full court-martial prosecution.

While it is often neglected as area of concern by many attorneys, this is a mistake. NJP is one of the most powerful disciplinary tools used by commands to punish servicemembers for “crimes” while avoiding a formal court-martial proceeding.3 As such, the practical ramifications for servicemembers facing NJP can be serious.

http://nlgmltf.org/military-law/2014...ourts-martial/

Punitive Discharges. Punitive discharges are authorized punishments of courts-martial and can only be awarded as an approved court-martial sentence pursuant to a conviction for a violation of the UCMJ. There are two types of punitive discharges: Dishonorable Discharge (DD) -- which can only be adjudged by a general court-martial and is a separation under dishonorable conditions; and Bad-Conduct Discharge (BCD) -- which can be adjudged by either a general court-martial or a special court-martial and is a separation under conditions other than honorable.

Administrative Separations. Administrative separations cannot be awarded by a court-martial and are not punitive in nature. Enlisted personnel may be administratively separated with a characterization of service (characterized separation) or description of separation as warranted by the facts of the particular case.

https://www.thebalance.com/military-...rt-iii-4056918

This guy was not allowed to own a gun.

 

[Stunned]

Fwiw imo these US 'shooter' threads residing in the 'Up To The Minute' forum is denying reality - which many US citizens seem to be doing where multiple deaths of innocent people are concerned. The same threads are opened in 'Crimes In The News' yet they are closed and morphed into 'up to the minute'. They are crimes - at least to the rest of the world.

Have only read maybe 6 pages of thread #1 - the denial is overwhelming. It's not the easy access to rapid fire guns, or the fact that the US thinks having rapid fire guns are fine, it's everyone/everything else that is to blame. Denial imo and enabling the next person thinking of shooting up a public place. How long will it take to beat this shooting, or the Mandalay Hotel shooting?

One post I did catch reminded me that not all US citizens think that this unique situation to the US is OK - that poster said they were embarrassed for their country. Another poster then chastised that poster for their audacity to speak such a thought - claiming the US is the greatest country in the world.

Just want to say to the chastising poster - not anymore my friend. You stand alone in your country now with that thought - and complicity comes with denying there is a problem. Will read the headlines of the next mass shooting, but will not be interested in any details - have already read them.

Jmo.

Sadly, could not of said this better.

 

[Bernina]

It does not matter. He was convicted of a domestic violence -related crime and thus federally, could not even possess, let alone buy, a firearm.

Someone else posted that the length of his sentence precluded gun ownership as well, which I did not know.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...06&utm_campaign=breakingnews&utm_term=nprnews

He also had a known record of domestic violence. In 2012, while he was in the U.S. Air Force, he was court-martialed for assaulting his then-wife and their child. Under federal law, his conviction disqualified him from legally possessing a firearm.

 

[JaneEyre]

So the Air Force didn't submit his history to the FBI, per pentagon rules according to the AP.

[video=twitter;927672115502899201]https://twitter.com/AP/status/927672115502899201[/video]

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[gitana1]

Maybe it was a plea deal.

Also from the article.

“He pled to intentionally doing it.”

There are a few types of assault, it appears, under UCMJ - Assault, Article 128. One aggravated form is as follows:

Aggravated in which grievous bodily harm is intentionally inflicted.

1. That the accused assaulted a certain person;
2. That grievous bodily harm was thereby inflicted upon such person;
3. That the grievous bodily harm was done with unlawful force or violence; and,
4. That the accused, at the time, had the specific intent to inflict grievous bodily harm.

https://www.mcmilitarylaw.com/article-128-assault.html

Emphasis by me.

That indicates he pled to an aggravated form. He could've been sentenced to I think up to five years. But clearly he reached a plea deal that gave him a lower sentence.

 

[gitana1]

So the Air Force didn't submit his history to the FBI, per pentagon rules according to the AP.

[video=twitter;927672115502899201]https://twitter.com/AP/status/927672115502899201[/video]

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Why? Why wouldn't they?

 

[JaneEyre]

Air Force says it failed to enter Texas gunman's court martial into database

http://thehill.com/homenews/news/35...texas-gunmans-court-martial-into-database?amp

The Air Force failed to enter the Texas church shooter's domestic violence conviction into a federal database used for background checks on gun sales - a move that could have prevented him from purchasing a rifle used in Sunday's shooting.

The Air Force said in a statement provided to*The New York Times*that it hadn't put Devin Kelley's court-martial for domestic assault into the database used to run background checks for firearm sales.

Kelley had been court-martialed in 2012 for assaulting his wife and stepson, including cracking the infant's skull.

The conviction likely would have prevented Kelley from buying the military-style rifle that he used in the shooting, as well as three other guns he had purchased over the past four years, the Times reported.



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[kittythehare]

Fwiw imo these US 'shooter' threads residing in the 'Up To The Minute' forum is denying reality - which many US citizens seem to be doing where multiple deaths of innocent people are concerned. The same threads are opened in 'Crimes In The News' yet they are closed and morphed into 'up to the minute'. They are crimes - at least to the rest of the world.

Have only read maybe 6 pages of thread #1 - the denial is overwhelming. It's not the easy access to rapid fire guns, or the fact that the US thinks having rapid fire guns are fine, it's everyone/everything else that is to blame. Denial imo and enabling the next person thinking of shooting up a public place. How long will it take to beat this shooting, or the Mandalay Hotel shooting?

One post I did catch reminded me that not all US citizens think that this unique situation to the US is OK - that poster said they were embarrassed for their country. Another poster then chastised that poster for their audacity to speak such a thought - claiming the US is the greatest country in the world.

Just want to say to the chastising poster - not anymore my friend. You stand alone in your country now with that thought - and complicity comes with denying there is a problem. Will read the headlines of the next mass shooting, but will not be interested in any details - have already read them.

Jmo.

I think honestly its a mistake to nationalise this crime.. gun laws are not great, I know that.

BUT, lets not deny that there is a massive upsurge in mindless violence worldwide.
Not all countries have guns readily available.
But they have chainsaws, hammers hatchets, iron bars.. all manner of murder weapons..

The real issue to be explored is the DESIRE TO KILL.

Have humans become so totally disempowered that the only action they feel capable of taking is an act of utter destruction?

Apportioning blame on a nationality, a weapon, a law is not only futile..history proves that.. it also avoids the core issue..

Change will occur when people receive correct education from a very very early age.
Education on coping with their own personal torment..
This is missing from every school curriculum in the world..
People do not know how to cope.. they have no clue.. supports are there but they dont know how to go looking for them.
Nobody wants an insanity diagnosis because societies frown upon it..

In every small town in every country in the world, there exist a handful of people, spurned by their communities because they dont fit in..
Psychiatry is a shambles.
Its up to us as individuals to show a little more kindness to those who clearly need it but never receive it.

Even if everybody who reads this makes a decision to be a little kinder , to search out the forgotten ones, to give , change would be effected..
We're not children. Looking to government or LE to save us from ourselves is both juvenile and futile.

WE are the ones that lost the plot.
We were in that condition when we elected our governments, so they are less than useful and potentially dangerous.
The arc has swung too far to the right.. to the cold place where man's humanity to man is received with little more than a yawn..

 

[Bernina]

"Our church was not comprised of members or parishioners. We were a very close family. We ate together, we laughed together, we cried together, and we worshipped together," said Pomeroy. "Now most of our church family is gone, our building is probably beyond repair. And the few of us that are left behind lost tragically yesterday. As senseless as this tragedy was, our sweet Belle would not have been able to deal with losing so much family yesterday."
"Please don't forget Sutherland Springs," she said.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...agedy-comes-to-a-small-church-in-a-small-town