TX TX - Dallas, WhtMale 1244UMTX, 20-25, hanged in motel room, May'86

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by CarlK90245, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The Doe Network:
    Case File 1244UMTX
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1244umtx.html
    NamUs UP Case Number: 4469 https://identifyus.org/cases/4469

    [​IMG]
    Sketch of Victim

    Unidentified White Male

    * The victim was discovered on May 2, 1986 in Dallas, Dallas County, Texas

    Vital Statistics

    * Estimated age: 20-25 years old
    * Approximate Height and Weight: 6'1"-6'2"; 154 lbs.
    * Distinguishing Characteristics: Dark blond/light brown straight hair, approximately 4" layers; blue/grey eyes. Light freckles across the center of face.
    * Clothing: Size 46-48, "JC Penney" brand, white T-shirt; size 32 waist, "Gap Pioneer" brand, blue jeans; army style, black cloth belt, size 29-30; "JC Penney" brand, white jockey shorts.
    * Personal Effects: A Brown billfold with the initials "PJK" was in his possession; he was also wearing a white metal link chain with a black and white metal pendant and a black Casio digital watch.
    * Fingerprints: Available at the Dallas County Medical Examiner's Office.

    Case History

    The victim was found hanging in a room at La Casita Motel, located at 4300 Harry Hines Boulevard, in Dallas, Texas on May 2, 1986. His death was a suicide by hanging.
    The man, most likely in his twenties, used the name “John Smith” while checking into the motel. He claimed that he was from New York City and that he had cancer.

    Agency Case Number:
    U8710001; 245782T

    NCIC Number:
    U-211154991
     
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  3. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    This guy has a lot in common with Lorne Karl Landeen
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/landeen_lorne.html

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    LKL's DLC: 20-Jan-1986
    UID's DOD: 02-May-1986
    Height: UID: 6'1" to 6'2"_______LKL: 6'2"
    Weight: UID: 154_______LKL: 150
    Hair Length: UID: Medium_______LKL: Medium
    Hair Color: UID: Blonde to Lt Brown_______LKL: Light Brown
    Age: UID: 20 - 25 _______LKL: 22
    Circumstances:
    • LKL was reportedly "depressed and upset at the time of his 1986 disappearance". UID died by suicide.
    • LKL may have been sighted in El Paso (i.e., East of where he disapeared). UID was found in Dallas.
     
  4. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Also, Scott Lyons Jacobs is the right height and age, his DLC is reasonably close to the UID's DOD, and he also had depression issues. And more interesting - His clothing description includes a "Black Digital Casio Watch". The UID's personal effects included a "Black Casio Digital Watch"

    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jacobs_scott.html
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    However, he is 56 lbs too heavy, and has brown eyes (The UID's Eyes are Blue/Grey)
     
  5. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    They have a similar physical appearnace but what do we know about the missing person?
    There is no mention of the UIM wearing glasses or contacts. There are physical signs of one wearing glasses for an extended period of time and if he had contacts in, that would be noted. Since the scrip is for thick lenses it is doubtful he would go without them. Then there is the initials on the wallet. "PJK".
    Why would a (reportedly) depressed person abandon his vehicle (found 2 days later) in and hitch a ride to another state to commit suicide? Not a suicidal profile but stranger things have happened.
    Did the UIM really have cancer? That would certainly be evident in the ME examination. Too much here to hang on a face. (MHO)
     
  6. froggierintexas

    froggierintexas Don't squat with your spurs on!

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  7. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    I am always eager to learn the approach of others in trying to make these matches. What is your basis for selecting this as a possibility? Can you share a bit of what you learned of him in your research?
     
  8. Cymro

    Cymro New Member

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    What I see here with Kastilieris:

    There's no obvious reason for him to be in Dallas, TX. However if you check into a hotel calling yourself "John Smith" there's a good chance that you don't want to be found. That might also include putting yourself in locations where you don't have any particular connection.

    Demographics are good: he's a little younger than the age range (by two years) however. His physical description is a great match and his features are also close.

    [​IMG] vs [​IMG]

    Against that you have an unexplained delay of 9 months between disappearance and the UID's suicide. This, as well as the fact that John is missing in suspicious circumstances, makes it a long shot - would love to know whether there is actual evidence of a crime or just a presumption.

    The initials on the billfold are tantalizingly close but I can't locate any relatives who might have had those initials.

    Also, there is a guy on Facebook who lives in Greece who has this name. He's American, also, judging by his Twitter posts (same photo) regarding American sports. He also resembles an older version of the missing guy somewhat. I won't link but he's easily searchable. Of course it's quite likely that Facebook John is a relative of missing John, given that the surname is so uncommon there are so very few people of this name (21 matches in Zabasearch).
     
  9. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    BBM
    You made some interesting and valid points. It is easy to 'connect' a MP or UI to any location. Some reasons are logical and true and others are scenarios set to speculation to fit the case. It is not uncommon to have a delayed time line, especially with males when they leave home until they are pronounced deceased.

    But how do you connect the MP to the UI? This is where research is absolutely necessary. The more you know about the person you are searching for you can better make a certain match with a UI. I see many of you here have a knack or sense of what the circumstances were. Take that gift and stretch it into fact.

    Interesting you picked up on the wallet initials. Ask yourself is this a clue and it is a priority? What about the five guitars? Where does a young man go carrying 5 guitars? It is impossible without help or without a vehicle. Did he have friends who were musicians? Was he depressed? Where did he hang out ? Knowing these things will either connect you to the UI or they won't.

    I see no sign (at least in the report) that Kastilieris was suicidal. So a starting point is what exactly are the police 'investigating'? There are few details available.
    A point you may find useful when searching for the missing. Please, no disrespect meant here for the victims or the families, but in GENERAL, the cases that say missing under suspicious circumstances or 'endangered" (unless medication is proven to be needed) are little more than a family member's desperate ploy to find their loved one. They know that if they add the element of endangered or that 'suspicious persons were around the person missing, LE will pay little or no attention. Much of the time they do not want to believe their loved one just left because they wanted to.

    When I was in LE and faced with a missing person report, and knew for a fact that the missing was a runaway, it was the policy to placate the family (still is) and assure them everything would be done to find the missing, which of course cannot be done as a missing adult is not a crime, and if younger and there was absolutely no reason to suspect foul play, the MP department simply filed the reports with a notation: "Under Investigation". So, when reading these cases, especially teens and particularly males, who fare better at hitch hiking and establishing street 'friends' the time line is not so critical. If no reason other than 'suspicious circumstances' exists, I treat them as runaways. That gives me more options in finding potential contacts for the missing in other cities and states and this keeps me focused only on the MP and his/her habits and lifestyle. Just one approach.

    Any ideas how to begin building a connection between the UIM and Kastilieris?
    You have the perfect beginning in trying to find out if he is indeed missing!:dance:
    Logical.
     
  10. Cymro

    Cymro New Member

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    Mensch - just a quick note to say that although I posted the answer above, I am not the person who found the missing person. I wouldn't want to claim any credit nor put forward any ideas that detract from Frogger's submission.

    Serious question - how do we, who may not be geographically close to a disappearance, and have no law enforcement credentials, search to link these two after 25 years? Contacting family is a huge emotional step both for the poster and for the UID's family and not one I'd be keen to take. LE controls the flow of information to the public.

    Dentals and DNA are one answer but they are ideally the confirmation of a case that has been built. But how does one go about building that case when the amount of information that is available is limited? If the answer is to involve law enforcement then it may be that the most efficient way to use their time is to skip the intermediate stage and go right to authentication.

    When Bambi Lynn Dick was posted on Doe she was identified almost immediately, hundreds of miles from home but everything else matched perfectly (including, IIRC, some unique medical characteristics). In other cases, even when there has been a match made on here, the details given out have often been vague, inconsistent or inaccurate.

    So yes, there is speculation. But the speculation I engage in on here, and with others, is hopefully targeted to assess the quality of a submission or to help find possible matches. Every UID has some aspect that doesn't make sense; whether it's a family that chooses not to report missing, a police department that wouldn't take a report, a large distance from home, a delay between disappearance and location, or someone who drops the investigative ball early on, or something else. Otherwise identification should mostly be straightforward.
     
  11. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    Yes, I know, but I appreciate you responding to the question. I can better see how you apply logic.

    It is very difficult. That I why I posed the question. I see threads started and usually the next day there is a submission and I say “But wait! What about such and such....How did you come to this conclusion? So I wanted to know if these submissions were based more on physical appearance. So while some submissions may look absurd when looking at the photos, it is more often than not that the submissions that are actually ridiculous and a waste of time are those where little or even no research was done and the physical features look good. There seems to be the notion that it is better to go ahead and turn it in and at least get a rule out. Actually this is not so and you can confirm this if you have a trusted ME or LE contact to talk with. When LE gets submissions daily based on same hair, same eyes, same smile, etc. they tend to ignore a reasonable case submission. It costs money to do DNA comparisons. It takes time and money to review a case. It is better to take longer and give them a 'connection' to the UI, such as a possible reason the MP would be or could be the deceased.
    You are absolutely correct in not contacting family. At least not unless or until you think they may be receptive to assisting. This is rare. Despite the web pages and the pleas for help, people just don't want to know. They want to hang on to the notion of someday.......

    There are three cases here on the board where the family says they want help and actually have websites and yet they make excuses or shade the facts because they can better live with a family member who is “just missing” than face the fact they left because they wanted to be somewhere else. So family is not the way to go at first.
    Someone with access to better skip-trace software certainly has a better chance at some parts of the puzzle, but ultimately it is common sense, dedication, persistence and logic that counts. In some instances it is clear the person does not want to be found and there are privacy laws put into place to protect them. The Social Security Administration actually will forward letters from families to missing loved ones (with disabilities) but cannot 9by law) let the family know where the missing person is. There are laws in place to protect our privacy and I am glad for it. There is no ONE way. Each case has its problems and its potential. School records, Genealogy sites are good to research, etc. Carl can probably give you excellent tips in searching schools, papers, archives and other avenues for those with no photos or long time missing.
    When all you have is the physical comparison , every skin pore counts! I am working on one now, where I swear I can tell you every clogged pore on his face. Never take for granted that the identifiers were entered or even reported correctly. Get a good graphics photo enhancer and scan your potential matches literally inch by inch. Look at them in different lighting, in negative image and in black and white as well as color. See for yourself that every smear or clone, or use of any correcting tool alters the persons appearance. This is why ME do not make picture perfect images. Light bouncing off prominent bone structure and the shadows left will be what determines a good base to determine your match. If you can find sketched, sculptures and postmortem photos use all of them for comparison. Search the net or newspapers until you are sure there is not another photo left out and them study them all. Imagine them animated. Try to understand how they got a certain line on their face. Imagine different facial expressions. Forget the hair, the eye color, the smile (at least in the beginning. Focus on the skin, bones, teeth if visible, hairline (not style).
    Sorry for the lengthy post. I need to get some zzzzs! Bottom line is: get to know your case so well, that it becomes the person next door, not a number in NamUS. With your sense of reasoning, you will progress and be successful. There cannot be a resolution to all of these cases. That is the hardest lesson I had to learn.

    Below respectfully snipped by me:

    It is speculation that creates questions that get answered that creates more questions that brings resolution.

    Great! However, speculation must be based on some fact. Is that fact relevant? I guess that is the first question.

    Never give up the search! You may be the only person who can get someone out of a potters field, give him a name and proper burial. :twocents:
     
  12. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    Just wanted to add that when I ask how any of you came to your conclusions, I m not in any way saying you are wrong. I am asking because I am truly intrigued by the possibility. I spend so much time looking and researching and so little time discussing options with other researchers. I am just a get-to-the-bottom line kind of person that I forget communication skills.
    :0
     
  13. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    From what I gather, you have a LE background and are in the business of researching and resolving these cases, and have a small staff of researchers at your disposal. As such, I would guess that you have various resources available to you (especially with regard to the MP) that we do not. You can probably call a LE agency, and by telling them that you are a former LE person doing private investigations, you have a degree of rapport with the person on the other end of the line that a Websleuths member with no LE background does not.

    I can understand that you have a professional reputation to uphold, and as someone who does this for a living, you can't afford to be seen as someone who doesn't dot the I's and cross the T's. But I have to respectfully disagree with you that we should spend a week doing "research" before calling something in.

    More often than not, on the UID side, all we have is a DoeNet profile, or a NamUs case file. Very frequently there is incorrect information. I would guess that many of these UID's have gone unidentified for so many years because someone got some vital information wrong, or someone came up with an incorrect theory of what happened to this person. Remember that Paula Davis (AKA the Blue Bandanna Girl) remained unidentified for thirty years because NCIC had her DLC wrong. Samantha Bonnell's DLC was wrong too. Age estimates are sometimes wrong. Height and weight estimates are often wrong. In a recent case discussed on this board, they even got the gender wrong.

    You only need to look at Porchlight's ID'd Comparisons section to see that sometimes a reconstruction is spot-on, and sometimes it's way off. (This is no slam at the artists, as I have done several of them myself, some of which I wasn't entirely happy with). But as private citizens with no LE background, we have no access to NCIC. We don't have a lot of colleagues that we can just call for info. We usually don't have access to the MP's family. Sometimes with a lot of digging we can come up with some additional info, but more often than not, all we have is a couple of UID websites and a few MP websites, and a few other sources, such as MySpace, Classmates, Facebook, Ancestry et. al.

    VanNorman has said that he would prefer that we don't over-analyze because we may talk ourselves out of calling in a good match. He frequently mentions the Samantha Bonnell case where the mother went four months without calling it in because she was too focused on things with the NCMEC facial reconstruction that didn't look quite right (and BTW, that one was reasonably close). Hal Brown has told me that he doesn't mind looking at something that has a few pieces that don't quite fit because he would prefer to know that he has done everything possible to ID this person.

    My point is that if I have a few things that look right, I'm probably going to call it in even if there are a few things that seem a bit off, and I am not going to spend a week trying to hunt down info that is probably not available to me anyway. If a LE or ME agency is put off because they weren't impressed with my possible, so be it.
     
  14. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    And BTW, I came across this UID the Landeen case a week or two ago, and put them on a list of possible matches that aren't quite close enough to call-in. With Landeen, there was a very strong tie-in with the physical descriptors, but I had the same doubts that you did regarding the contact lenses and initials on the wallet. It's possible that he was carrying someone else's wallet. He left his own wallet in his car. And usually, if you have a wallet in your pocket, it includes Identification. He also didn't appear to have any hint of a freckly complexion.

    For those reasons, I wasn't convinced that this was worth calling in. When I started looking at it again and saw Jacobs and the Black Casio Digital Watch, I thought that it was an interesting coincidence, but I wasn't ready to call that one in either.

    But I went ahead and introduced the cases here because it looked like something that would provoke a good discussion.

    And it did.
     
  15. tatertot

    tatertot Member

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    Just some brainstorming on this UID: This young man was in his early twenties, and that's sadly the age when one may lose grandparents and/or great-grandparents. The "PJK" wallet may have been a treasured memento he kept from a deceased relative. Most people I know in their twenties or thirties, myself included, have been through the same bittersweet experience of helping sort a late grandparent's belongings and are offered a few things to keep as remembrances.

    Also, I cannot begin to get into the mindset of someone who travels away from home to commit suicide, but it sounds as though this UID wanted to be a John Doe. No matter what his mood at the time, he must have done some reflection before going through with it and known that if he died alone in a motel far from home without a driver's license and with a fake name used to sign in that his family had little chance of finding him. Whether this was to protect them by letting them think he'd merely started a new life elsewhere or to punish them somehow I cannot say, but I hope he rests in peace. Very sad case.

    Thirdly, if I had to guess, I'd say Kastilieris pawned all or some of his guitars for bus fare or other living expenses. I hope LE checked local pawn shops and used music stores at the time he disappeared.
     
  16. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    Carl,
    For the sake of brevity I will restate what was in one of my previous posts:
    I do not get paid for my research. I do not have a "professional” reputation to uphold. What I have is a LE investigator background and am retired and do not work for them or on their behalf. I do this research on behalf of the missing and the unidentified.

    As to reputation, I only strive to insure my credibility as a researcher so that when I do submit a possible match, it is taken seriously and reviewed as a worthy submission and not an off the cuff opinion without logical connection.

    I gave my opinion and stated clearly there was NOT ONE WAY of researching, thinking this information would encourage those who sincerely want to serve the victim and not their ego. There are some good minds here and they should receive all the support and encouragement they can get. I know for a fact they wont get it from LE and it is tough enough to get past the misinformation, lack of information and unprofessional input at the missing sites. Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes here. Carry on.:twocents:
     
  17. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The Facebook John Katsilieris has a different birthdate.
     
  18. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Just giving a counter-point in response to your point. No egos were bruised, nor were toes stepped on.
     
  19. Mensch

    Mensch Former Member

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    BBM
    Good brainstorming tatertot,
    Raising questions gets one into the mindset of the person involved. In my opinion the bolded areas are very important to consider.
    Wallet may not be his but could lead to a family member.
    While it is the norm to leave the state or go far away to 'disappear' it is unusual for someone to leave for the specific purpose of committing suicide in a different location. The suicide is a deliberate act of seeking attention and or/ simply wanting a situation to 'die' not actually wanting to kill of ones self. Even in the cases of extreme self hatred and desire to commit suicide there is the element according to studies of getting back at someone and wanting them to hurt by seeing or knowing of their suicide. I may not be explaining this clearly. I am sleep deprived at the moment. People are not like animals with respect to death. We do not relish the thought of being off alone in death. In the suicides far from home, it is generally one who left to escape a situation or life only to find where they are is no better and they feel hopeless. But again, to leave sole for the purpose of committing suicide is out of the norm (whatever that means). These are studies of behavior psyche and I do not claim to understand them.

    The fake ID and no dl could mean he was either running from the law or from his past which generally includes some family. It is a very sad situation.
     
  20. lieber32

    lieber32 Verified Expert

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    I am very on the fence about this issue. I work for LE currently and know that I have access to information others could only dream about. Also know from my experience that sometimes LE leave out very important info. One example I can think of is LE leaving passengers out of car accidents taken to hospitals due to injuries and not listed in the report ( you try dealing/explaining to a person that needs the report to pay hospital bills that he is not listed in the report although he was conveyed to hospital at the scence). Also know that having a background in LE accords me special privelages in regards to information/help. It also makes me more knowledgable of how the system works. Both CarlK and Mensch bring up good points. I too have seen submitteds that have me scratching my head. I agree some variables are open to interpetation, distance from location missing, certain features such as age/weight etc. Cases submitted where there are easily rule out features (foot difference in height, time frame is way off, circumstances don't match up at all, extremely different dentals etc.)
     
  21. webrocket

    webrocket New Member

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    how about this guy Rodney Longman?

    https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/4674/0/

    the height, weight and eye color (gray) are all about right. hair color is listed as brown but in his picture it is a bit lighter. his face looks a little thinner than the composite sketch but who's to say?

    originally missing from Nebraska but according to his info, he was last seen in Miami (no particular date) with another man and a pregnant woman. not clear if the last date known alive was Nebraska or Miami.

    as for the intitals on the billfold, it could have been stolen.
     

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