GUILTY TX - Former Dallas Police Officer Amber Guyger, indicted for Murder of Botham Shem Jean #8

[BellaVita]

.

3) Chaos in the society is relative, although the mere existence of a cop like Amber gives certain credence to your statement ))). But we, women, should rest assured that all pharmacies in the area would dispense to us oral contraceptives, if we need them. When we have to drive from one pharmacy to another to find the pharmacist whose religious beliefs allow it, it will create chaos on the roads. As to the court system, an openly proselytizing Christian judge runs the risk of generating more appeals from her Muslim or Hindu defendants, creating more chaos in our legal system, etc, etc. There are professions where it should not matter, but we still are a secular society, and for a reason.

(I wonder how judge Kemp interprets "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.")

RSBM: BBM: I think that's really overstating it to say that a Pharmacist who doesn't dispense birth control will cause traffic chaos. I don't agree that I need to "rest assured" that every pharmacy dispenses contraception. The world goes on if someone has a moral objection. Take my butt to the next location. According to the ACLU, “A pharmacy’s or pharmacist’s refusal to sell birth control does not violate a woman’s federal constitutional rights.

I also don't agree that more appeals will be generated because this Judge, or any Judge, openly expresses spirituality of some sort. Appeals are usually based on arguments that there were errors in the trial's procedure or errors in the judge's interpretation of the law.

As for "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s": That was Jesus' instructions to the Jewish people to pay their taxes. Judge Kemp probably didn't need to read the Bible to figure out it's a good idea to pay your taxes.

All MOO.

 

[Wishbone]

I posted the oath, as an example that government is not completely separate from religion, specifically Christianity.

Therefore, Judge Tammy Kemp was not inappropriate for giving AG a bible.

Witnesses still swear to god on the bible before they testify, and that's the reality of separation of church and state.

 

[sloane7777]

Witnesses still swear to god on the bible before they testify, and that's the reality of separation of church and state.

You are right ...what happens with a Muslim or an atheist in court ...its still a bible right ? That's kinda wrong or it seems like the swear would be for lack of a better word REAL? I know it's just symbolic but I've never really thought much of it

 

[Wishbone]

You are right ...what happens with a Muslim or an atheist in court ...its still a bible right ? That's kinda wrong or it seems like the swear would be for lack of a better word REAL? I know it's just symbolic but I've never really thought much of it

For me, the notion of the separation of church and state doesn't really exist, no matter what we are told. Don't want to get into a big discussion, but I don't even have freedom of speech without repercussions.

 

[mickey2942]

Witnesses still swear to god on the bible before they testify, and that's the reality of separation of church and state.

Exactly.. They still have prayers said in the Senate and Congress, by Christian ministers.

I remember when we said the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school....",,.one nation under God..".

This has been challenged in court, but since participation in the pledge is now voluntary, it stands.

 

[Wishbone]

Exactly.. They still have prayers said in the Senate and Congress, by Christian ministers.

I remember when we said the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school....",,.one nation under God..".

This has been challenged in court, but since participation in the pledge is now voluntary, it stands.

No religion can be forced upon the people, it's a choice. But there are times and places where, in my opinion, it isn't suitable to be on display.

 

[turaj]

I don't think for a minute an appeal will involve Judge Kemp's actions at all. They are working on other matters including evidence admitted or kept out...change of venue being denied...and I am sure lots of other things. That is what attorneys do. It is never over on a murder conviction in the first trial and another good reason why judges normally keep the same courtroom demeanor that they have thru the trial...avoiding any of the controversy that is now clogging social media.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

I do understand that Botham could have been ANYONE sitting on their couch.

I fully understand that is why his case struck a nerve and has 8 threads here.

I also understand that PTSD and nudity isn’t as comfortable for people to see.

However it still hurts a little that Anthony is on thread 1, page 1.

He needed help. He just needed help.

GA - Anthony Hill, 27, fatally shot by Dekalb County LE, 9 March 2015 *Arrest*

Thank you. You’re a good citizen. I’m upset at myself. Why haven’t I heard about or sought this case out?
Olsen Trial - YouTube

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“Those officers that killed unarmed Black men, when they got out, they went back to living their lives,” Juror 34 said. “Amber Guyger, ever since she killed that man, she has not been the same.

“She showed remorse and that she’s going to have to deal with that for the rest of her life.”

He said there’s no way jurors could ever know what Jean would have wanted, but “I think we all had to make a decision that we could live with and that our conscience could be sound with.”

“They were asking us to take an eye for an eye for Botham,” Juror 21 said, “and I feel like he isn’t someone who would take an eye for an eye. He would turn the other cheek.”
https://atlantablackstar.com/2019/1...like-other-cop-killings-of-unarmed-black-men/

 

[imstilla.grandma]

‘Subtle Mammying Going On’: Black Officer Stroking Amber Guyger’s Hair During Murder Conviction is Ruthlessly Criticized

Intense Debate Ensues After Botham Jean’s Brother Hugs Convicted Murderer Amber Guyger, Judge Kemp Offers Bible Verse to Read

https://atlantablackstar.com/2019/1...ing-separation-of-church-and-state-principle/

https://atlantablackstar.com/2019/1...tures-rough-arrest-of-amber-guyger-protester/

https://atlantablackstar.com/2019/1...-after-recalling-tay-ks-55-years-behind-bars/

https://atlantablackstar.com/2019/0...r-murder-trial-but-not-everyone-is-convinced/

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Judge Creuzot stated that there is also a new policy that will affect each LEA regarding officer- involved shooting cases. The DA’s office will require that the main case file be submitted to the DA’s Office within 45 days of the incident, regardless of whether the investigation has been fully completed. If the file is not received within 45 days, a Grand Jury Subpoena will then be issued for the file. Once everything is received, the case will then be presented to the Grand Jury within 90 days. Judge Creuzot stated that the one thing the DA Office has never done is keep data on the effectiveness of anything the office does.
https://www.dallascounty.org/Assets/uploads/docs/cjab/meetings/2019/CJAB_Minutes_031819-FINAL.pdf

https://www.dallascounty.org/Assets/uploads/docs/district-attorney/policies/OIS_Protocol-2019.pdf

https://www.dallascounty.org/Assets...rmersBranchPoliceOfficerIndictment_062719.pdf

District Attorney | Public Integrity Division

 

[10ofRods]

I guess I may be in a minority, but I seriously do not think that Amber Guyger would have shot a little old lady in the same circumstances. I think everyone is more likely to be scared of and aggressive toward men, rather than women, and that further, yes, race does play a role.

@Gitana has posted on this several times and with better facts and sources than mine, but here's one:

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

There are a bunch of other studies about perception and directed attention, and how race affects our focus and how we react. I'm not saying this is "racism" per se on the part of Guyger (although I think her SM posts indicate what I myself view as a very problematic attitude toward race), but the status of black men in our society is not the same as the status of white men. Guyger probably would have shot any male, given that she thought there was an intruder.

But if she had opened that door to see an 8 year old kid watching TV, I do believe she would have hesitated. She would have hesitated if she saw the silhouette of a woman. Sex and race played some role here, the same role those things play in the broader world.

 

[Charlot123]

RSBM: BBM: I think that's really overstating it to say that a Pharmacist who doesn't dispense birth control will cause traffic chaos. I don't agree that I need to "rest assured" that every pharmacy dispenses contraception. The world goes on if someone has a moral objection. Take my butt to the next location. According to the ACLU, “A pharmacy’s or pharmacist’s refusal to sell birth control does not violate a woman’s federal constitutional rights.

I also don't agree that more appeals will be generated because this Judge, or any Judge, openly expresses spirituality of some sort. Appeals are usually based on arguments that there were errors in the trial's procedure or errors in the judge's interpretation of the law.

As for "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s": That was Jesus' instructions to the Jewish people to pay their taxes. Judge Kemp probably didn't need to read the Bible to figure out it's a good idea to pay your taxes.

All MOO.

@BellaVita , I know the story about “render to Caesar”, but the interpretation varies depending on who is talking. We know what Christ said, we don’t know what he meant. And it is not simple. I have seen so many, this is why I am interested in what judge Kemp would say. (Mine is, “you live in the Roman Empire, you are subject to its laws, but keep my kingdom in your soul.”)

About the pharmacist. The country has hurricane zones, tornado zones, seismogenic areas, states afflicted by fires, areas that are flooded basically every year. There might be the situation when this pharmacy, with a faith-based pharmacist, might be the only one working in the area, and if in the case of a catastrophe he chooses to exercise his religious views, it will turn into a very tight situation for the women living around.

And in my personal view, refusing to sell OC to women because of personal faith bias is discrimination, too. However - I think that it could be allowable, only people have to indicate it on the signs. “Faith-based pharmacy”, “Faith-based judge”, etc. So that everyone know what to expect, and whom to patron. Otherwise see complaints and appeals.

 

[Charlot123]

.

You are right ...what happens with a Muslim or an atheist in court ...its still a bible right ? That's kinda wrong or it seems like the swear would be for lack of a better word REAL? I know it's just symbolic but I've never really thought much of it

I know politicians can choose any book to swear on. Or even none. Personally, I think the Constitution will be the proper choice for the court.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

.


I know politicians can choose any book to swear on. Or even none. Personally, I think the Constitution will be the proper choice for the court.

https://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/constitution.pdf

 

[Charlot123]

I guess I may be in a minority, but I seriously do not think that Amber Guyger would have shot a little old lady in the same circumstances. I think everyone is more likely to be scared of and aggressive toward men, rather than women, and that further, yes, race does play a role.

@Gitana has posted on this several times and with better facts and sources than mine, but here's one:

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

There are a bunch of other studies about perception and directed attention, and how race affects our focus and how we react. I'm not saying this is "racism" per se on the part of Guyger (although I think her SM posts indicate what I myself view as a very problematic attitude toward race), but the status of black men in our society is not the same as the status of white men. Guyger probably would have shot any male, given that she thought there was an intruder.

But if she had opened that door to see an 8 year old kid watching TV, I do believe she would have hesitated. She would have hesitated if she saw the silhouette of a woman. Sex and race played some role here, the same role those things play in the broader world.

I agree. I also think that a tall white man, especially, young and in tattoos, would have been in danger, too.

So essentially, it is about dangerous stereotypes in the society.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The First Amendment says nothing about “separation of church and state” or a “wall of separation between church and state.” Where did this idea come from? Is it really part of the law? | Freedom Forum Institute

 

[10ofRods]

1. She has a 10 year sentence for committing what Texas law terms a "3g" offense.

2. Those convicted of a 3g offense must serve "at least" 50% of their sentence before they are eligible for parole.

3. So, Amber will be eligible for parole in approximately 5 years.

4. Being eligible for parole in 5 doesn't necessarily mean she'll be out in 5 years. But.....given everything, and especially if the Jeans don't oppose her parole/actually advocate for her release, it's a good bet she will be out in 5. imo.

Oddly, this is why I believe parole boards should listen to others and not just the victims. The Jeans are unusual in their radical forgiveness and I respect their stance. However, there are issues to do with justice and the rest of society at play. There are messages sent.

Sentencing and parole should not be based only on whether the victims' family has taken a forgiving attitude or taken a liking to the perpetrator. Community impact should be a factor and others should testify at those parole hearings. Equalizing sentences for similar crimes should be a goal of parole boards (not the only goal, but one goal).

I realize this is a pipe dream.

Do the protesters realize that it was the jury who gave the ten year sentence?

Well, yes, I think they do realize that and they want influence society-at-large not to sentence differently just because someone is a woman (and white). Of course, protesting is very unlikely to solve the problem

I agree. I also think that a tall white man, especially, young and in tattoos, would have been in danger, too.

So essentially, it is about dangerous stereotypes in the society.

You put it very clearly and succinctly. Yes. It's going to take a long time to change. It may not be changeable.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The judge's role is to referee on the law (and in some cases determine the sentence) and there is NOTHING in our constitution saying they have to leave their humanity or spirituality out of doing their job. Additionally, the trial was over so she did not interject any spirituality or religion into the trial. It was a personal moment between the judge and the defendant.

The atheists who have complained, have always deliberately misinterpreted "separation of church and state". Since the pathetic public indoctrination system doesn't even teach our nation's history, most people know nothing about the first amendment or the intent of the Founders. The prohibition, by the Founders, was against a state religion (like the Church of England) being created by congress, period. The first amendment also says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

https://www.freedomforuminstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/SOFAreport2019.pdf

 

[Hope4More]

I guess I may be in a minority, but I seriously do not think that Amber Guyger would have shot a little old lady in the same circumstances. I think everyone is more likely to be scared of and aggressive toward men, rather than women, and that further, yes, race does play a role.

@Gitana has posted on this several times and with better facts and sources than mine, but here's one:

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

There are a bunch of other studies about perception and directed attention, and how race affects our focus and how we react. I'm not saying this is "racism" per se on the part of Guyger (although I think her SM posts indicate what I myself view as a very problematic attitude toward race), but the status of black men in our society is not the same as the status of white men. Guyger probably would have shot any male, given that she thought there was an intruder.

But if she had opened that door to see an 8 year old kid watching TV, I do believe she would have hesitated. She would have hesitated if she saw the silhouette of a woman. Sex and race played some role here, the same role those things play in the broader world.

I agree 100%. There's a difference in stating/believing Amber's shooting of Jean was racially MOTIVATED, and that Jean's race (and gender) factored into Amber's choice to shoot.

The State argued, based on precious little evidence, that Amber's shooting was racially motivated. IMO that was a strategic error. This argument didn't fit the facts of the case, and it precluded the State from presenting the far more likely narrative that Jean's race influenced, but did not determine Amber's choice to shoot.