TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #5

[NotSHolmes]

For one thing, Rachel's father was, by all accounts, a very bad guy. A P.I. hired by Rusty, Dan James, thinks that Rachel was 6—8 weeks pregnant with Cotton's child. How do you rule out someone with that reputation?

I'd like to know how that P.I. figured that one out...

 

[Ozoner]

I wanted to chime in, especially on the subject of a Security Guard...I was 8 years old when this happened, and Seminary South was the only mall I had ever been too, it was the only mall anywhere near my home town which is just south of Fort Worth...The thing I have racked my brain trying to remember, is if we (my Mom,Dad and little sister) visited at that time. Seminary South had the "South Pole" at Christmas time which was insanely popular and the mall was so packed especially around the Sears store. I remember always entering through Sears, unless going to Murphys which was around the N facing side of the mall and kind of up a hill. You have to think about one mall, at Christmas, serving Tarrant County/Seminary and Felix area which have always been very diverse, like many other areas just due to the size of DFW....but along w/Fort Worth/Tarrant County residents, you had every tiny town that was in surrounding area also at Seminary South. It was a madhouse with what seemed like million mile line for Santa lol There was a steak house toward the back and across a street, at that time and I want to say a Wyatts Cafeteria in same lot as the mall...These to restaurants also drew large crowds but mostly older people or people who could afford the steak house. I wish I could remember the name...I can still see the bldg. Short story long, the holidays would have been really the only time you saw that type of security and they weren't like the little courtesy guys now days at the mall...they would stand there watching the lines and watching the doors for shoplifters. they were not regular employees as far as I remember...so the odds of getting a ride from security in 1974 at Seminary South were pretty much not what they did. They were posted in the mall area not driving around the lot back then and not there on the regular. We went to SS a lot due to school shopping, taking my grandparents when they wanted to go get something that you couldn't get from the little stores closer to our town...I also read that the one girl wanted to be home by 4 to get ready for a party, which makes me think the odds of a newly promised teen girl, missing the Christmas party and the chance to show her ring, are slim to none on purpose at least...There have been incidents for years and even recent years of men following or even hiding under peoples cars...at one mall someone was doing that and cutting womens achilles as they walked up which in turn rendered them unable to walk at all...it's crazy and the holidays seem to make people crazier and meaner in some areas....namely those areas full of people and young women/girls to fall victim to the opportunistic abductor or rapist/murderer.....I intend to re-familiarize myself with the details and look for any new....i did see a few years ago, the brother of one of the young ladies has a dive team and equipment who helped him in finding a car specific to someone, I cannot remember who w/o looking it up but this case has never truly died down completely around here...I just hope one day there will be closure for the families and answers so we can all understand what happened that day.

The cars that they brought up from Benbrook Lake didn't seem to lead anywhere. A while back a former Websleuths member, FW_Cat, claimed that Tommy had a personal vehicle that disappeared at the same time that the girls disappeared. It seemed like a smoking gun—she presented the information as if it were factual—but it turned out to be pure speculation. It was also suggested that Tommy might have had access to abandoned cars at the transmission shop. FW_Cat's theory was that Tommy had put Rachel in the trunk, put Julie and Renee in the backseat, and then rolled the car into Benbrook Lake in order to drown the three girls. Neither car pulled from Benbrook Lake contained any remains or had any apparent connection to the case. A third car, which could not be brought up, was checked for remains, and nothing was found. (To be fair, I'm not sure whether they were able to check the trunk.) When retrieving the cars proved fruitless, FW_Cat suggested that that the girls' bodies might have been in a car removed by the army corps of engineers.
-
Personally, I think the girls are neither in a car nor in barrels of used transmission fluid. I think the three partial skeletons found near Alvin in 1976 were these girls. I am hoping that those skeletons can be located and that some kind of DNA testing can be performed.

 

[puddintain]

In my opinion I don't think the Boogie Man Serial Killer had anything to do with this case. I think the culprit was someone Rachel knew very well. Maybe someone was just tired of being played or maybe someone was about to to call it quits and leave the other or maybe someone saw others in a position they shouldn't be in. I think Rachel was way to street smart to go with a stranger especially on the 23rd with the Mall being packed with people.

I agree.

 

[puddintain]

The cars that they brought up from Benbrook Lake didn't seem to lead anywhere. A while back a former Websleuths member, FW_Cat, claimed that Tommy had a personal vehicle that disappeared at the same time that the girls disappeared. It seemed like a smoking gun—she presented the information as if it were factual—but it turned out to be pure speculation. It was also suggested that Tommy might have had access to abandoned cars at the transmission shop. FW_Cat's theory was that Tommy had put Rachel in the trunk, put Julie and Renee in the backseat, and then rolled the car into Benbrook Lake in order to drown the three girls. Neither car pulled from Benbrook Lake contained any remains or had any apparent connection to the case. A third car, which could not be brought up, was checked for remains, and nothing was found. (To be fair, I'm not sure whether they were able to check the trunk.) When retrieving the cars proved fruitless, FW_Cat suggested that that the girls' bodies might have been in a car removed by the army corps of engineers.
-
Personally, I think the girls are neither in a car nor in barrels of used transmission fluid. I think the three partial skeletons found near Alvin in 1976 were these girls. I am hoping that those skeletons can be located and that some kind of DNA testing can be performed.

I agree with you. That is something that would make since to me. I believe they need to check that dna and any others found in that area.

 

[Ozoner]

In my opinion I don't think the Boogie Man Serial Killer had anything to do with this case. I think the culprit was someone Rachel knew very well. Maybe someone was just tired of being played or maybe someone was about to to call it quits and leave the other or maybe someone saw others in a position they shouldn't be in. I think Rachel was way to street smart to go with a stranger especially on the 23rd with the Mall being packed with people.

You may be dismissing the serial killer angle too quickly. Some estimates put the number of unidentified serial killers in the US at between 3,000 and 4,000.
Modern Life Has Made It Easier for Serial Killers to Thrive
Many serial killers have not shied away from abducting multiple victims at once. Take the case of Kenneth McDuff: "He was convicted in 1966 of murdering 16-year-old Edna Sullivan, her boyfriend, 17-year-old Robert Brand, and Brand's cousin, 15-year-old Mark Dunnam, who was visiting from California. They were all strangers whom McDuff abducted after noticing Sullivan. She was repeatedly raped before having her neck broken with a broomstick." McDuff was in prison when these girls disappeared, but he was eventually paroled and went on to commit more murders. Back in the 70s, parole boards let people like McDuff go free all the time.
Kenneth McDuff - Wikipedia
One possible suspect is Edward Harold Bell. He has been connected to seven killings, but he has claimed eleven—"the eleven who went to heaven." Bell abducted and murdered two girls together on at least one occasion. He was operating in the Galveston area, but LE should look into whether he has any connection to Ft. Worth.
Man admits to killing as many as 11 girls across Southeast Texas
The three unidentified skeletons found near Alvin would have been right in the middle of Bell's stomping grounds. If those skeletons turn out to be Rachel, Renee, and Julie, then Bell has to be looked at as a suspect.
If the skeletons don't belong to these girls, then they could be unknown Bell victims. However, I think that they are the girls. In the early 70s, there were a number of reports in the media of murdered girls and young women being found in the Houston area, so it would have been the logical place to dump the bodies if the goal was to steer investigators away from Ft. Worth.

 

[Ozoner]

I agree with you. That is something that would make since to me. I believe they need to check that dna and any others found in that area.

Alvin is in the same part of the State is Houston. If the letter was intended to misdirect LE towards Houston, then the girls' bodies may have been transported to that area in order to misdirect LE towards Houston, too. Maybe the killer or killers thought that the bodies would be found sooner and identified. Then the narrative would have been that the girls took off to Houston with a stranger and were killed there.

I've sometimes wondered about DJ Sam's wee-hours-of-the-morning trip from Houston to Ft. Worth and back. I've wondered whether he could have been making a pick up. I can't see why he would have been willing to become an accessory, though. No amount of money or loyalty would be enough for most people to do something like that.

 

[puddintain]

You bring up some very good points.
Sam, who gets off after closing a bar down as the DJ in Houston and drives all the way to Fort Worth, never sleeps, and drives back. I believe there are discrepancies in that timeline. Why would he come At Christmas time that far of a drive anyhow? A DJ can get a piece when he wants it. I think he was lead to believe that Debra was going back with him. That makes me think of the letter. Going to Houston, see you in about a week. It wasn’t wrote hastily imo because it has proper punctuation. I don’t believe it’s her writing but the wording sure says Debra. There are many ties and references to Houston. I was told that fwpd verified that Sam was at work but, in the bar scene, that’s not a hard alibi to get. Wonder if Sam information was given in the very beginning?

Bell is interesting to me also. And personally I have not cleared DeBardeleben. I don’t really believe it was either one but, you can’t count them out on what information I have. That’s when I use the razor.

 

[Valiant]

I'll admit the theory of disposing of the bodies in a car has some appeal - shops often end up with abandoned cars. They are brought in for repairs and abandoned by the owner because repair cost is too high. The owner would never know what happened to their car. Eventually a shop lien makes the car the property of the repair shop (but the shop may or may not file for ownership). Then it would become the mater of disposing of the car. Under water is a possibility, but so would be a scrap faculty where cars would be crushed or shredded. Depending on business relationships and frequency of abandoned cars, the scrap facility might never search the cars and, even if the VINs were recorded, the chance of the VIN leading back to the shop might be hard to establish.

Do I think anything like that happened? No clue. It's a possibility but no evidence points to this happening.

 

[FW_Froggy]

I'll admit the theory of disposing of the bodies in a car has some appeal - shops often end up with abandoned cars. They are brought in for repairs and abandoned by the owner because repair cost is too high. The owner would never know what happened to their car. Eventually a shop lien makes the car the property of the repair shop (but the shop may or may not file for ownership). Then it would become the mater of disposing of the car. Under water is a possibility, but so would be a scrap faculty where cars would be crushed or shredded. Depending on business relationships and frequency of abandoned cars, the scrap facility might never search the cars and, even if the VINs were recorded, the chance of the VIN leading back to the shop might be hard to establish.

Do I think anything like that happened? No clue. It's a possibility but no evidence points to this happening.

I've thought about this angle too. Texas Steel was less than 2 blocks from the Seminary South Mall and they had a huge furnace to melt steel. Eighteen Wheelers would come in full of scrap metal and the giant magnet would come down pick up the metal and drop it in the huge melting furnace.

 

[puddintain]

I've thought about this angle too. Texas Steel was less than 2 blocks from the Seminary South Mall and they had a huge furnace to melt steel. Eighteen Wheelers would come in full of scrap metal and the giant magnet would come down pick up the metal and drop it in the huge melting furnace.

Only so many people would have access to that though correct? Or am I wrong on that? However, if so who did have access to it and can we link them back to the girls? That is always a possibility.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Only so many people would have access to that though correct? Or am I wrong on that? However, if so who did have access to it and can we link them back to the girls? That is always a possibility.

Got Me. The place was Huge. Many blocks on Hemphill st. They had multiple piles of scrap metal inside the yard. Hundreds of people worked there.

 

[Valiant]

Only so many people would have access to that though correct? Or am I wrong on that? However, if so who did have access to it and can we link them back to the girls? That is always a possibility.

it would not be surprising that an auto shop accumulates scrap metal and even scrap vehicles. Then a scrap hauler (or the shop itself) collects the scrap and sends it somewhere - to a junkyard or a recycler. You do this a few times and you'll know if (or how closely) the scrap is checked.

Seems rather elaborate, but could have happened. But then there are so many other ways to dispose of them. And we don't know if it was an anger killing from someone near them, a stranger abduction, or what. But I think TT has been under such extreme scrutiny from the beginning that it is unlikely to be him.

 

[puddintain]

it would not be surprising that an auto shop accumulates scrap metal and even scrap vehicles. Then a scrap hauler (or the shop itself) collects the scrap and sends it somewhere - to a junkyard or a recycler. You do this a few times and you'll know if (or how closely) the scrap is checked.

Seems rather elaborate, but could have happened. But then there are so many other ways to dispose of them. And we don't know if it was an anger killing from someone near them, a stranger abduction, or what. But I think TT has been under such extreme scrutiny from the beginning that it is unlikely to be him.

Tommy wasn’t even looked at in the beginning. The girls we’re listed as run aways. The car was not processed. Hikes not searched. If fwpd has done their jobs in the beginning those girls would have a much greater chance at some sort of justice. Why did he produce that letter? Until that makes since, no one can take him off the table. The only logical explanation is that he knows something and is hiding something. That does not mean he’s fully responsible but he’s hiding something.
Speaking of fwpd listing the girls as runaways, I believe each family should file a civil suit against fwpd for listing them as runaways. Especially the Moseley’s. Takes a real (I can’t say the word) to think a 9 year ran away two days before Christmas. All of the girls were minors. I believe there was gross negligence by fwpd I. This case. Jmo

 

[Ozoner]

I think that Tommy wrote the letter, but I'm not sure why people think that he addressed the envelope. Where would he have gotten a blank envelope with a canceled stamp on it? It doesn't seem like the letter was ever in the envelope. Did Tommy mail an empty envelope to himself? When was the envelope produced, the same day as the letter or the next day?

 

[puddintain]

I think that Tommy wrote the letter, but I'm not sure why people think that he addressed the envelope. Where would he have gotten a blank envelope with a canceled stamp on it? It doesn't seem like the letter was ever in the envelope. Did Tommy mail an empty envelope to himself? When was the envelope produced, the same day as the letter or the next day?

If he did mail one in advance, that means it’s premeditated. By all accounts the envelope was presented later the same day. I just don’t get why anyone wouldn’t take them together? I don’t believe the letter was ever inside. I think those that took it to police didn’t think about an envelope until asked where’s the envelope it came in? So I’m not sure how to explain that but I do believe he wrote his name on that envelope.

 

[Ozoner]

If he did mail one in advance, that means it’s premeditated. By all accounts the envelope was presented later the same day. I just don’t get why anyone wouldn’t take them together? I don’t believe the letter was ever inside. I think those that took it to police didn’t think about an envelope until asked where’s the envelope it came in? So I’m not sure how to explain that but I do believe he wrote his name on that envelope.

If he wrote his name on the envelope, then how did the postmark get on the envelope? It seems odd. I'll be curious to see what DNA testing on the stamp reveals.

 

[puddintain]

If he wrote his name on the envelope, then how did the postmark get on the envelope? It seems odd. I'll be curious to see what DNA testing on the stamp reveals.

I wish they would do the dna again. A lot has changed in 20 years in dna. I still want to see the back of both envelope and letter. Also if they would do that testing where they can see an imprint such as if the paper for the letter came from a pad, whatever they wrote on the page before it, would have left an impression. That would be interesting. And if they created a profile of the person from the dna. That would be lovely!

 

[Ozoner]

I've thought about this angle too. Texas Steel was less than 2 blocks from the Seminary South Mall and they had a huge furnace to melt steel. Eighteen Wheelers would come in full of scrap metal and the giant magnet would come down pick up the metal and drop it in the huge melting furnace.

I doubt whether a car would have been dropped into that furnace, but I'll bet plenty of sealed drums went in. There is no telling how many murder victims were disposed of at that facility and others like it.

 

[FW_Froggy]

I doubt whether a car would have been dropped into that furnace, but I'll bet plenty of sealed drums went in. There is no telling how many murder victims were disposed of at that facility and others like it.

They had many large piles of cars out there and yes many barrels too. LE would melt down unwanted guns in that furnace also.

 

[Ozoner]

They had many large piles of cars out there and yes many barrels too. LE would melt down unwanted guns in that furnace also.

Do you know whether they dropped cars in whole? Were they stripped first? Were the trunks checked?