TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Pricklykitty]

Both TT's parents had an autopsy along with CA. One thing in TT's favor RA said he passed 3 lie detector tests (one was 20 years later). To my knowledge DA didn't pass any lie detector (inconclusive) and she married into one of the leading lie detector families in Fort Worth within two months of the disappearance.

Bbm
This raised a few questions for me. Obviously is where he came from, but mainly to do with her reasons for a whirlwind romance & marriage just in the weeks following her sister going missing. IF the stories are true that both girls wanted out of the Arnold home because they were being abused in some form there, then as beubeubeu says, you can understand her desperately looking for a means to prevent her having to return to the home. This in turn raises questions around any involvement CA, or people he knew, may have had in the trio going missing. Did DA have knowledge or suspicions of this?
However, at the same time we are expected to believe that CA was too ill to be able to be involved in anything to do with the trio going missing, and so would there still be as much to fear by DA if she were to return home? Or was the desire not to return home not solely to do with CA?
Imo DA could shed alot of light on things but chooses not to time and again, so it's no wonder she is suspected by alot of people of being involved
Literally everything in this case raises questions but not answers.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Bbm
This raised a few questions for me. Obviously is where he came from, but mainly to do with her reasons for a whirlwind romance & marriage just in the weeks following her sister going missing. IF the stories are true that both girls wanted out of the Arnold home because they were being abused in some form there, then as beubeubeu says, you can understand her desperately looking for a means to prevent her having to return to the home. This in turn raises questions around any involvement CA, or people he knew, may have had in the trio going missing. Did DA have knowledge or suspicions of this?
However, at the same time we are expected to believe that CA was too ill to be able to be involved in anything to do with the trio going missing, and so would there still be as much to fear by DA if she were to return home? Or was the desire not to return home not solely to do with CA?
Imo DA could shed alot of light on things but chooses not to time and again, so it's no wonder she is suspected by alot of people of being involved
Literally everything in this case raises questions but not answers.

Much has been made of the relationship between CA and his daughters (real/alleged). I question the relationship between FA and her daughters. CA was reportedly abusive to the girls. If so, did FA ever try to stop it? If she didn't, I'd think there'd be some resentment and distrust (not only did Dad mistreat them, Mom allowed it to happen). Also, could  FA have been abusive (there are different kinds of abuse)?
I wonder at what age DA started with the running away, and where she stayed. How'd she get started working in Dallas?
I still believe someone she knew/knows could be involved in this (not necessarily a relative).Also, I believe there is someone besides Dad, she was/is afraid of (or protecting).
Besides all the counseling she's been through, she reportedly attempted to commit suicide, at one point. While in the hospital, she allegedly commented that her brother didn't come to inquire about her welfare, but wanted to send someone official to "get a confession", in case she didn't make it. Wow.
She moved back home, after her sister went missing, then got married less than two months later...

 

[jetsfanjohn]

So, theoretically, we've got
* the girls making it to the mall
* taking pictures in the photo booth
* being seen by the record store clerk
* missing their meeting with the other kids (which we're dismissing as no big deal)
Would they have stopped somewhere to eat, at some point? It's afternoon, by now. Surely they'd grab a bite at the Mall, or head back home (if they're short on cash or running behind).

My gut feeling is that if they did make to the Mall, they were not there for long. The 'eyewitness' accounts are a million miles from being bulletproof.

Looking at photos on the previous page, the car park is huge !! it would be difficult to time things and intercept them on their way to or from the car, particularly if you did not know where their car was parked, even if you were someone "they knew and trusted".

 

[Pricklykitty]

Much has been made of the relationship between CA and his daughters (real/alleged). I question the relationship between FA and her daughters. CA was reportedly abusive to the girls. If so, did FA ever try to stop it? If she didn't, I'd think there'd be some resentment and distrust (not only did Dad mistreat them, Mom allowed it to happen). Also, could  FA have been abusive (there are different kinds of abuse)?
I wonder at what age DA started with the running away, and where she stayed. How'd she get started working in Dallas?
I still believe someone she knew/knows could be involved in this (not necessarily a relative).Also, I believe there is someone besides Dad, she was/is afraid of (or protecting).
Besides all the counseling she's been through, she reportedly attempted to commit suicide, at one point. While in the hospital, she allegedly commented that her brother didn't come to inquire about her welfare, but wanted to send someone official to "get a confession", in case she didn't make it. Wow.
She moved back home, after her sister went missing, then got married less than two months later...

Yes there are definitely some issues with the A family, and coupled with their behaviour ever since the girls went missing, its difficult to accept there isnt some connection....imo of course

 

[Brightchaser47]

My gut feeling is that if they did make to the Mall, they were not there for long. The 'eyewitness' accounts are a million miles from being bulletproof.

Looking at photos on the previous page, the car park is huge !! it would be difficult to time things and intercept them on their way to or from the car, particularly if you did not know where their car was parked, even if you were someone "they knew and trusted".

Agreed. And there  do seem to be conflicting versions of the record store clerk sighting (I'd love to have that cleared up).

 

[Forensicfileslover]

Hello I’m new but have been following this case since the 1970s the girls disappeared on my birthday I was also a teenager in 1970s Ft Worth but grew up in Hurst Euless Bedford Tx. I was reading about Glen McCurley in an article in Texas Monthly when the police were interrogating him he began to describe some other girls clothes and not the blue dress Carla Walker had on the officers kept pressuring him but he wouldn’t admit to another murder. There were other girls who disappeared in 1970s Fort Worth I’m sure have been discussed previously. I also do Astrology for fun and I compared Rachel and Tommy’s birth charts I didn’t know their time of birth but they had some pretty strong connections between them. Their moons were the same which meant they were on same wave link hard to keep something from each other and their Mars were also the same sign which could be intense.

 

[T rex]

I found nice aerial photo of SS
It can be zoomed so gives pretty good idea of the size and surroundings - and it was taken in 70's, so pretty accurate as well.

View attachment 407509
Source: [Aerial view of Seminary South]

Yet only this oldie shows (almost) the whole thing. In '74 there was bunch of trees around it.

View attachment 407518

I can't find the post (or my own note) with somebody's descripton of the exact location of the record department within Murphys, but toy section was on lower level.

This is a good find. I think it's the best I've seen of SS during that time. I appreciate the time and effort.

 

[beubeubeu]

Good Golly, that place was HUGE! If Rachel did park the car where you have it marked, the girls would have a bit of a hike to the stores. Even if they were only there for a few minutes, it would've taken awhile to get in and out of that place.

Not exactly there, even bit farther to the left but picture wasn't wide enough. The exact location is what I marked some time ago.

I'd love to know if these parking lots were;
a) all completely packed at noon
b) or if then (around noon) in reasonable few minutes time it was possible to find a parking spot closer to the mall and it got completely packed only after people finished work at 3-4 PM and started their shopping.

Obviously it wouldn't tell anything for sure, just added or took some probability from the theory with their car being planted there.

 

[beubeubeu]

When you go in the front door of Murphy's next to the Largest Water Fountain. The Record Dept. was All along the right wall on the upper level. I bought many a record there back then.

Thank you so much.

So... not neccessarily that many people would have a chance to meet them there, even if their friends were at the mall in the exact same time.
Packed with people, open air mall, each building accessble from pretty much every direction, no need for them to wander through multiple departmets to access all the stores they could be expected to visit, in pretty limited time
(meaning: that record store where I've read not only records but plenty of affordable items that could work good as gifts were sold, teen clothes, snack bar and toys)

And it could theoretically be as "little" as:
1. Straight to the Murphy's


And inside: record store, through few departments, maybe snack bar, women and teen's sportswear, to the stairs, down the stairs, toys and maybe books for kids, back to the stairs, up, out, back to the car.


Absolutely no idea where doors/passages were, it's just for the very general idea of Mall as a whole, Murphy's as a store and possibly just 20% (or less) of that whole big store they could be - all under assumption that they went with their shopping more or less as planned - for like 20-30 mins tops in every of these few departments.

How many people could they knew that were there in that exact time?
Likely some, cause at least record store department seemed to be pretty popular, but it's (at least for me) not like "oh, no way they were there for long/at all cause there would be plenty more whitnesses".

And the whole point of that is just that IMO it's absolutely possible that they were there, bought some stuff, even got lunch and had three hours of fun at the mall while getting just a few not very confident sightings... or some that we aren't aware of as the public.

 

[beubeubeu]

Bbm
This raised a few questions for me. Obviously is where he came from, but mainly to do with her reasons for a whirlwind romance & marriage just in the weeks following her sister going missing. IF the stories are true that both girls wanted out of the Arnold home because they were being abused in some form there, then as beubeubeu says, you can understand her desperately looking for a means to prevent her having to return to the home. This in turn raises questions around any involvement CA, or people he knew, may have had in the trio going missing. Did DA have knowledge or suspicions of this?
However, at the same time we are expected to believe that CA was too ill to be able to be involved in anything to do with the trio going missing, and so would there still be as much to fear by DA if she were to return home? Or was the desire not to return home not solely to do with CA?
Imo DA could shed alot of light on things but chooses not to time and again, so it's no wonder she is suspected by alot of people of being involved
Literally everything in this case raises questions but not answers.

Where he came from is indeed very interesting question.
As far as I understand implication behind it is theory that she somehow predicted that at some point she may be polygraphed so she got together with this guy and gathered inside info and skill to cheat on polygraph and keep her dark secrets close to the chest.
But was she even still married to the guy at the time when she took polygraphs?
For me if it may work as detail that points at her in a bad way... it could be as well the reason why she ended up so aggitated that she walked out during one. Easier to imagine a scenario with her motivation being full of dark secrets and guilt, but not impossible to imagine that she got a series of highely embarassing questions that had nothing to do with the girls but with her knowledge about polygraphs and that marriage.

Theoretically her reasons to get out of the house as soon as possible could be as mondain as wanting to not cause her parents any extra money as an "adult" living with them. Could be that CA and whole situation was mentally unbearable even if he was bedridden sick. Could be that some family friends or family members showed up to help FA and she felt like there is not enough room for her there. Could be so many things that we will likely never know about.

 

[T rex]

Thank you so much.

So... not neccessarily that many people would have a chance to meet them there, even if their friends were at the mall in the exact same time.
Packed with people, open air mall, each building accessble from pretty much every direction, no need for them to wander through multiple departmets to access all the stores they could be expected to visit, in pretty limited time
(meaning: that record store where I've read not only records but plenty of affordable items that could work good as gifts were sold, teen clothes, snack bar and toys)

And it could theoretically be as "little" as:
1. Straight to the Murphy's

View attachment 407725
And inside: record store, through few departments, maybe snack bar, women and teen's sportswear, to the stairs, down the stairs, toys and maybe books for kids, back to the stairs, up, out, back to the car.
View attachment 407727

Absolutely no idea where doors/passages were, it's just for the very general idea of Mall as a whole, Murphy's as a store and possibly just 20% (or less) of that whole big store they could be - all under assumption that they went with their shopping more or less as planned - for like 20-30 mins tops in every of these few departments.

How many people could they knew that were there in that exact time?
Likely some, cause at least record store department seemed to be pretty popular, but it's (at least for me) not like "oh, no way they were there for long/at all cause there would be plenty more whitnesses".

And the whole point of that is just that IMO it's absolutely possible that they were there, bought some stuff, even got lunch and had three hours of fun at the mall while getting just a few not very confident sightings... or some that we aren't aware of as the public.

Here's my thoughts on it,

1) the girls were not at the mall as long as you have suggested they could have been.

2) the girls were at the mall as long as you have suggested they could have been and Renee ditched her 4 o' clock plans.

3) they were there as long as you have suggested, LE is wrong about them leaving with someone they knew and they were abducted by a stranger in the parking lot or somehow on the short drive home.

4) they were there for that long, they did leave with someone they know in Rachels car and that person abducted them before their 4 o' clock return.

5) they were never at the mall.

It seems like I had another one but oh well, if so maybe I"ll think of it again later.

BTW, do you know where the post office was located?

 

[beubeubeu]

Much has been made of the relationship between CA and his daughters (real/alleged). I question the relationship between FA and her daughters. CA was reportedly abusive to the girls. If so, did FA ever try to stop it? If she didn't, I'd think there'd be some resentment and distrust (not only did Dad mistreat them, Mom allowed it to happen). Also, could  FA have been abusive (there are different kinds of abuse)?
I wonder at what age DA started with the running away, and where she stayed. How'd she get started working in Dallas?

Oh, you will never know answers to questions like that. Sometimes even family members living under same roof are unaware of the real dynamic going on in disfunctional homes. They definitely had several issues and years of high tension in household even apart from the abuse and before Rachel went missing.

I still believe someone she knew/knows could be involved in this (not necessarily a relative).Also, I believe there is someone besides Dad, she was/is afraid of (or protecting).
Besides all the counseling she's been through, she reportedly attempted to commit suicide, at one point. While in the hospital, she allegedly commented that her brother didn't come to inquire about her welfare, but wanted to send someone official to "get a confession", in case she didn't make it. Wow.

Disappearances and murders are wrecking (often already troubled/hurting families) in many ways, it's never just the fact that someone is not there, while they should be.
Allegedly at the time, RA was fully convinced by DJ that DA was not only involved but responsible so...
And of course she may be the one exagerrating things.

 

[T rex]

Here's my thoughts on it,

1) the girls were not at the mall as long as you have suggested they could have been.

2) the girls were at the mall as long as you have suggested they could have been and Renee ditched her 4 o' clock plans.

3) they were there as long as you have suggested, LE is wrong about them leaving with someone they knew and they were abducted by a stranger in the parking lot or somehow on the short drive home.

4) they were there for that long, they did leave with someone they know in Rachels car and that person abducted them before their 4 o' clock return.

5) they were never at the mall.

It seems like I had another one but oh well, if so maybe I"ll think of it again later.

BTW, do you know where the post office was located?

Oh yea,

6) they left with someone they know in that persons car and they were gonna drop Renee at home for her plans.

 

[Chypre]

As I'm following along . . .
Did law enforcement state
A. They left with someone they knew and trusted.
B. They left with someone they knew.
C. They left with someone they trusted.

I've always thought of it as C which would include random security or authority figures.

 

[beubeubeu]

My gut feeling is that if they did make to the Mall, they were not there for long. The 'eyewitness' accounts are a million miles from being bulletproof.

Looking at photos on the previous page, the car park is huge !! it would be difficult to time things and intercept them on their way to or from the car, particularly if you did not know where their car was parked, even if you were someone "they knew and trusted".

Intecepting them on their way to the mall would have to be accidental - or at least I can't come up with any scenario apart from maybe waiting at the store/department where they were surely going to be.
On their way back to the car would be pretty hard but not impossible - even if preceeded by driving slowly through every single parking lot looking for their Oldsmoble. Immense task, but probably doable in an hour or so.
But why would anyone want to do that? By literally every account I ever saw locals seemed to be either unaware or oblivious to the fact that women are getting abducted from parking lots in FW , even LE who should have the highest awareness was of the belief that it's more likely that Julie ran away than got abducted - so unlikely that someone had a plan to make it look like they got abducted from the mall.

 

[tucson1991]

Somewhere on an earlier thread, I remember reading that TT, CA (and someone else whose name I've forgotten), used to race cars. Is that how they met? Or is it even true?

Articles in Newspapers.com Cotton was racing, a lot, in the late '60s and still doing well in 1972.

 

[beubeubeu]

Hello I’m new but have been following this case since the 1970s the girls disappeared on my birthday I was also a teenager in 1970s Ft Worth but grew up in Hurst Euless Bedford Tx. I was reading about Glen McCurley in an article in Texas Monthly when the police were interrogating him he began to describe some other girls clothes and not the blue dress Carla Walker had on the officers kept pressuring him but he wouldn’t admit to another murder. There were other girls who disappeared in 1970s Fort Worth I’m sure have been discussed previously.

McCurley was born in 1943 (or 42).
31 when he abducted, tortured and murdered Carla.
He lived long, happy, peaceful life of a serial killer and was dropping bodies all over the place but he's very, very unlikely involved in this case.
Including Dallas local, active serial killers were in double digits, first of which not neccessarily was "1", but it's unlikely that any of those already discovered is responsible for this crime.

 

[beubeubeu]

BTW, do you know where the post office was located?

No. It supposed to be a tiny unit, some kiosk located in some distance from the stores, in the parking area but I have no idea where exactly.

 

[beubeubeu]

As I'm following along . . .
Did law enforcement state
A. They left with someone they knew and trusted.
B. They left with someone they knew.
C. They left with someone they trusted.

I've always thought of it as C which would include random security or authority figures.

Trusted. Someone they trusted.
Connection between trust and friends/family members is not what they stated.

And just by sheer curiosity. I have two questions.

1. Do you all also tend to assume that TT and DA's relationship and brief engagement happening between his first wife and Rachel?

Cause only after repeating few times in my ramblings that Renee's dad's story about Renee asking him if she could date VB does not mean or even imply that she expressed interest in him WHILE dating TM (cause he sounded proud when he mentioned that, as telling a story about his daughter trusting him and respecting his opinions so much - not like he was bragging that yeah, his 14yo missing daughter wanted to have multiple boyfriends at the time) I thought that oh wait, maybe RA and TT dated BEFORE his first marriage!
So not just months earlier, but years earlier, possibly while he was like 16-17 and she was 14-15. Why I never thought about that being a possibility? Cause then it would make sense that it wasn't serious or affecting them much in December 1974, unlike that kinda self-implied series of family engagements happening in span of two months. Additionally that could mean that A's knew TT long before he started dating Rachel.

2. Do you also tend to picture mall guards as young guys, some teens, maybe more TT's age, just because of that maybe-being-there-maybe-not hint that record store clerk was close in age with Rachel?

Cause I did. And then there was like OH GOD, but security guards are often older guys, like retired or kicked out the job ex-cops and all sorts of weirdos with power complex - could it be so different then (with younger guys, maybe friends or acquaintances of DA/TT/Rachel/Renee) or NOT.

Cause if not, then WHOOOA!
What about those two security guards, one who reported that odd sighting of another security guard with three girls in his car seen at 11:30 PM, so at the time when even cops showed up and families were looking for three missing girls?

Who were those girls, was that ever established?
What any young girls were doing there in the middle of the night, after mall was already closed?
How families and cops were able to miss those three girls walking to that car or being in the car while looking for three missing girls?
If there were no girls why would he came up with such a bizarre story? (cause adding context to that it becomes pretty freaking bizarre - even considering how big these parking lots were).
Or is that a typo and he saw them in security guard's car not at 11:30 PM but at the 1:30 PM but someone messed up while sharing this info with the public on while doing notes (as they did with Rachel's name and times of filing the missing persons reports).

 

[T rex]

As I'm following along . . .
Did law enforcement state
A. They left with someone they knew and trusted.
B. They left with someone they knew.
C. They left with someone they trusted.

I've always thought of it as C which would include random security or authority figures.

Trusted. Someone they trusted.
Connection between trust and friends/family members is not what they stated.

Yes this 2001 article says someone they trusted. It also talks about 20 new witnesses and DNA.

Mar 30, 2001, page 34 - Fort Worth Star-Telegram at Newspapers.com - Newspapers.com

View the digital scanned newspaper from Fort Worth Star-Telegram dated Mar 30, 2001, page 34.

www.newspapers.com