TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Brightchaser47]

Haven't changed my mind at ALL I still believe this.

I must've misunderstood then-- sorry.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Deleted by me-DP

 

[Ozoner]

Haven't changed my mind at ALL I still believe this.

Organized crime groups don't do anything unless there's something in it for them. What would have been in it for them?

 

[beubeubeu]

Why would he get off work at 2 am and drive 3 hrs just to arrive at Minot at 5:30 am? Why not just wait and go at a decent time of day? Most people would not do this under normal circumstances and there was nothing normal about the circumstances of that night.

May be completely irrelevant to this case but this is pretty much exactly what my and my friend's boyfriends were doing while we were about DA's age. With pretty basic reasoning behind that: to get more time together.
Coming back home, taking shower, getting to bed, sleeping, waking up, having breakfast, starting the drive in the morning - with similar circumstances I can imagine it being equal to showing up at her place sometime around 4-5PM. That's significantly less time together, and IMO a scenario for someone with pretty exhausting, physical work (so unable to drive this long right after getting off work), not very interested in that girl OR very interested in the girl, but going for more official visit and dinner with her family or something like that.

DA doesn't remember if she met him 72, 73, 74, which is rubbish as you would know if you knew someone years or months, and would know if you were in contact with him while in ither relationships etc.

If that's her statement from late 70's or early 80's then I can agree that must be rubbish.
If much later then I'd say there is a chance for it not being rubbish. Meeting someone for the first time doesn't always mean that is super important and memorable thing, even if some relationship is formed later. Some people are great with the timelines of their life, some are not.

I, personally can see myself not knowing if few years ago I knew someone for years or months and when exactly we've met for the first time just because at some point later we were briefly dating each other.
With a serious, consistent relationship I almost certainly would know - and I don't neccessarily mean romantic, even some sort of relationship I could have with fellow student at Friday evening pottery course, who always sat next to me and chatted about something.
But with someone met at random times, random places, possibly introduced at some point before I actually payed attention and had a time and reason to make a mental note about it I'd be unable to tell.

He supposedly called and invited himself for Christmas and she forgot he was coming till he arrived. Again rubbish.

Again, happened to me. Multiple times. At the time when I had lots of people visiting me, calling, and showing up, having sort of busy "open" house I was able to completely forget about planned family gathering till people showed up at my door. Repeatedly. Not on purpose and I still have no idea how could I forget, yet I did.

How did he know to call her at Minot if they had just casually met sometime, after all she hadn't been there long herself.

Maybe they met shortly after she moved in, and she just gave him the number. If he was the only person she gave the number to then I agree on the rubbish. But did she?
In her situation (breaking up with boyfriend, trying to stay away from family home) first thing I would do after moving in would be to call literally the every person I'd have in my notepad and notify them that if they want to call me then XXXXXX is my current number. And even not neccessarily to stay in touch with all of them, but to prevent them from calling number that belongs to my ex or looking for me through parents, leaving messages or something like that.

It may not look like that but I'm not trying to defend DA now. It's genuinely, seriously, honestly what I'd do in this situation.
With bad breakup or even just regular breakup, I'd try to do everything I possibly could to stop people from calling my ex, while trying to reach me. And I'd like to be extra sure that some random guys who maybe were interested in dating me or warned/promised that they'll call me WONT TRY TO CALL MY EX asking for me. It'd be like one of the first things I'd do.

This may be going too far, but I can even imagine how such call (for example: hiya, it's me, D. here, so I just wanted to tell you that 123456789 isn't my number anymore, I broke up with my bf, 4567890123 is my current number, if you ever want to call me) could cause the guy to "figure" that OH! that sure sounded like an invitation, I should invite myself over, I'll call her back and tell that I'll go visit before Christmas!
Even going as far as having her not realising that he's serious, and really is going to show up first thing in the morning.

It may have nothing to do with how it really happened, but at least for me this scenario is way more plausible than him showing up to pick up the bodies or girls for trafficking. Not saying that the other are impossible, just that DA's account may not be as ridiculous as they appear to be at first sight.

Visiting over Christmas is different to visiting a random weekend, and if he was due to spend Christmas with her you would think some sort of arrangement would have been made to include him.

It depends. For some people is very different, for some not really. For people working at clubs random weekends are working days and Christmas weekend may be one of the free days.

He got off work in Houston and drove all night arriving 3 hours later. First that was some fast driving, and second why not sleep a couple hours and arrive later in the day? Also notice DA doesn't remember meeting him, forgot he was coming, but knows exactly when he got off work and when he arrived.
Supposedly he just turned around and left immediately. Unlikely! I mean the guy has worked a shift, drove through the night, and doesn't even stay for a drink or to use the toilet? Which must be the case if TT is to be believed when he says he doesn't remember SM arriving at all.

If he arrived so early and surprised her it's not odd that she remembered that he showed up saying that he drove there right after work.

Also: guys can "use toilet" pretty much anywhere. And they will go far if they think that sex may be on the table. Many disappear with the light speed as soon as they realise that sex is unlikely.

 

[Brightchaser47]

May be completely irrelevant to this case but this is pretty much exactly what my and my friend's boyfriends were doing while we were about DA's age. With pretty basic reasoning behind that: to get more time together.
Coming back home, taking shower, getting to bed, sleeping, waking up, having breakfast, starting the drive in the morning - with similar circumstances I can imagine it being equal to showing up at her place sometime around 4-5PM. That's significantly less time together, and IMO a scenario for someone with pretty exhausting, physical work (so unable to drive this long right after getting off work), not very interested in that girl OR very interested in the girl, but going for more official visit and dinner with her family or something like that.

If that's her statement from late 70's or early 80's then I can agree that must be rubbish.
If much later then I'd say there is a chance for it not being rubbish. Meeting someone for the first time doesn't always mean that is super important and memorable thing, even if some relationship is formed later. Some people are great with the timelines of their life, some are not.

I, personally can see myself not knowing if few years ago I knew someone for years or months and when exactly we've met for the first time just because at some point later we were briefly dating each other.
With a serious, consistent relationship I almost certainly would know - and I don't neccessarily mean romantic, even some sort of relationship I could have with fellow student at Friday evening pottery course, who always sat next to me and chatted about something.
But with someone met at random times, random places, possibly introduced at some point before I actually payed attention and had a time and reason to make a mental note about it I'd be unable to tell.

Again, happened to me. Multiple times. At the time when I had lots of people visiting me, calling, and showing up, having sort of busy "open" house I was able to completely forget about planned family gathering till people showed up at my door. Repeatedly. Not on purpose and I still have no idea how could I forget, yet I did.

Maybe they met shortly after she moved in, and she just gave him the number. If he was the only person she gave the number to then I agree on the rubbish. But did she?
In her situation (breaking up with boyfriend, trying to stay away from family home) first thing I would do after moving in would be to call literally the every person I'd have in my notepad and notify them that if they want to call me then XXXXXX is my current number. And even not neccessarily to stay in touch with all of them, but to prevent them from calling number that belongs to my ex or looking for me through parents, leaving messages or something like that.

It may not look like that but I'm not trying to defend DA now. It's genuinely, seriously, honestly what I'd do in this situation.
With bad breakup or even just regular breakup, I'd try to do everything I possibly could to stop people from calling my ex, while trying to reach me. And I'd like to be extra sure that some random guys who maybe were interested in dating me or warned/promised that they'll call me WONT TRY TO CALL MY EX asking for me. It'd be like one of the first things I'd do.

This may be going too far, but I can even imagine how such call (for example: hiya, it's me, D. here, so I just wanted to tell you that 123456789 isn't my number anymore, I broke up with my bf, 4567890123 is my current number, if you ever want to call me) could cause the guy to "figure" that OH! that sure sounded like an invitation, I should invite myself over, I'll call her back and tell that I'll go visit before Christmas!
Even going as far as having her not realising that he's serious, and really is going to show up first thing in the morning.

It may have nothing to do with how it really happened, but at least for me this scenario is way more plausible than him showing up to pick up the bodies or girls for trafficking. Not saying that the other are impossible, just that DA's account may not be as ridiculous as they appear to be at first sight.

It depends. For some people is very different, for some not really. For people working at clubs random weekends are working days and Christmas weekend may be one of the free days.

If he arrived so early and surprised her it's not odd that she remembered that he showed up saying that he drove there right after work.

Also: guys can "use toilet" pretty much anywhere. And they will go far if they think that sex may be on the table. Many disappear with the light speed as soon as they realise that sex is unlikely.

Some very good points there, beubeubeu.

 

[beubeubeu]

If LE had ever allowed James any access though, they would now know he had tampered with the files so it would have been a pretty pointless thing for him to do and then tell people he had done it.

James officially stepped in so late that even if he got some form of access to official case files from LE, it'd be at the time when some of that was already digitalised and - I'd expect - pretty decently guarded. And it never was a completely forgotten case, so multiple investigators would be able to tell that some things are missing, some seem to appear recently with no explanation... leading straight to someone being charged with federal crime.
We don't know for sure if anyone messed up with official case files, but if hints from now-deleted VI were correct, then it had to be done much earlier to be able to cause any confusion. Probably closer to the time when countless pieces of evidence were getting lost in mail while shipped to mediums and other self proclaimed wizards.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Organized crime groups don't do anything unless there's something in it for them. What would have been in it for them?

DA keeping her mouth shut. I only think OC was involved if they NEVER find the bodies. I still think there is a chance the bodies could be buried on a relatives land. Anybody know how much land CA's brother owned in 1974?

 

[T rex]

Supposedly he just turned around and left immediately. Unlikely! I mean the guy has worked a shift, drove through the night, and doesn't even stay for a drink or to use the toilet? Which must be the case if TT is to be believed when he says he doesn't remember SM arriving at all.

At that point Rachel could have pulled in the driveway at anytime and TT is sitting up waiting on a phone call and we're supposed to believe someone could have came to the house and he wouldn't have known it? Someone's lying.

 

[T rex]

DA keeping her mouth shut. I only think OC was involved if they NEVER find the bodies. I still think there is a chance the bodies could be buried on a relatives land. Anybody know how much land CA's brother owned in 1974?

Why does it have to be organized crime? Why can't it just be regular ol' crime?

 

[FW_Froggy]

Why does it have to be organized crime? Why can't it just be regular ol' crime?

My thinking is because of her connections to the strip clubs.

 

[T rex]

My thinking is because of her connections to the strip clubs.

I was just asking because something can be drug related or related to some other crime without necessarily being organized crime. An individual or small group of people can want to bring harm to someome for ripping them off, snitching on them, etc.
Is it possible this could have been retaliation? Not against Rachel, Renee or Julie but against someone else. It possibly could have been something like "oh so you think you can just go hideout at little sisters house, well alright then I'll just get little sister". If it was something like this then TT may have been correct in his suspicion of the ex-boyfriend and what DA is holding out on is nothing short of a motive. That wouldn't be an insignificant thing and she would not get a pass on it, not from me.

 

[Brightchaser47]

The main thing is the differences in how some of the parents appear distraught, while others almost disinterested.

I see a marked difference in body language between  CA and  TT. CA looks almost as if he's  humoring the press, community, etc. by  being there-- he's tolerating the situation. TT, on the other hand, looks very inside himself (as if he's trying to shut it all out)-- at least in the one shot he does.
For comparison, check out that photo of TT and Rachel taken (I believe) at Thanksgiving. TT's in a suit/tie. IMO, in that photo, his expression is more "look at me --look what I've got!"(referring to his bride, life), while  Rachel appears to be tolerating the situation...

Funny you mention the cowboy hats, but actually the fact TT and CA look like they are mirroring each other. Makes me wonder if TT looked up to CA and was trying to emulate him, and if so, just how much he would do to please and keep CA happy.

Good point. CA was much younger than TT's father, and they may've had more in common. From what I understand, TT spent his entire life trying to "fit in" and be "cool/accepted". I get the impression his adoptive parents were more "formal". With his in-laws, he could probably be more "himself". I get the feeling he trusted them implicitly. He did part with $10,000 for their benefit, and seemed  woefully ignorant of their business practices...

 

[Brightchaser47]

I was just asking because something can be drug related or related to some other crime without necessarily being organized crime. An individual or small group of people can want to bring harm to someome for ripping them off, snitching on them, etc.
Is it possible this could have been retaliation? Not against Rachel, Renee or Julie but against someone else. It possibly could have been something like "oh so you think you can just go hideout at little sisters house, well alright then I'll just get little sister". If it was something like this then TT may have been correct in his suspicion of the ex-boyfriend and what DA is holding out on is nothing short of a motive. That wouldn't be an insignificant thing and she would not get a pass on it, not from me.

Interesting you say that, because in earlier posts it was mentioned repeatedly that DA absolutely  refuses to discuss that particular guy/situation (if you're referring to the biker ex).
To me, that means either DA  knows that guy was involved or she  suspects he was.

 

[Brightchaser47]

At that point Rachel could have pulled in the driveway at anytime and TT is sitting up waiting on a phone call and we're supposed to believe someone could have came to the house and he wouldn't have known it? Someone's lying.

Did we ever get settled whether DA spent that night at Minot?

 

[T rex]

Did we ever get settled whether DA spent that night at Minot?

I'm for certain that I've read she didn't although I can't remember what the source was.

 

[Valiant]

I don't think a pretty, young girl who apparently wants to make more money than minimum wage needs organized crime connections to get a job dancing at an adult entertainment club.
I also don't see organized crime doing anyone a favor and either killing, selling into trafficing, or disposing of the bodies of three young people.

 

[Pricklykitty]

I see a marked difference in body language between  CA and  TT. CA looks almost as if he's  humoring the press, community, etc. by  being there-- he's tolerating the situation. TT, on the other hand, looks very inside himself (as if he's trying to shut it all out)-- at least in the one shot he does.
For comparison, check out that photo of TT and Rachel taken (I believe) at Thanksgiving. TT's in a suit/tie. IMO, in that photo, his expression is more "look at me --look what I've got!"(referring to his bride, life), while  Rachel appears to be tolerating the situation...

Good point. CA was much younger than TT's father, and they may've had more in common. From what I understand, TT spent his entire life trying to "fit in" and be "cool/accepted". I get the impression his adoptive parents were more "formal". With his in-laws, he could probably be more "himself". I get the feeling he trusted them implicitly. He did part with $10,000 for their benefit, and seemed  woefully ignorant of their business practices...

Absolutely agree with everything you just said. Its certainly interesting to see them all together.

Made me think that just a month after this he sold up and left town, so either he had just had enough and wanted a fresh start, things were getting too close for comfort, or things had come to light he wasn't happy about. Not necessarily about RT, could have been business related, or maybe he didn't want Shawn around the area as he got older and more aware of what was being said about TT. $10,000 was a lot of money to just walk away from.

 

[beubeubeu]

Absolutely agree with everything you just said. Its certainly interesting to see them all together.

Made me think that just a month after this he sold up and left town, so either he had just had enough and wanted a fresh start, things were getting too close for comfort, or things had come to light he wasn't happy about. Not necessarily about RT, could have been business related, or maybe he didn't want Shawn around the area as he got older and more aware of what was being said about TT. $10,000 was a lot of money to just walk away from.

Well... at the time he basically had no reason to stay.
Parents passed away. Other family members lived elsewhere.
His teenage wife was gone, and at the time they were looking for bodies regularily. Not much hope was left that they're still alive and coming back.
It was also clear that workshop was far from good investment. CA was dying.
He didn't have to stay in FW to keep being a father to ST.
Additionally he was like 22 at the time and he wasn't tight on money.
Nobody came forward and claimed to be his best friend from FW.

So... even thou he could have his own and unknown reasons to leave FW it's not weird at all that guy in this situation just moves on.

 

[beubeubeu]

DA keeping her mouth shut. I only think OC was involved if they NEVER find the bodies. I still think there is a chance the bodies could be buried on a relatives land. Anybody know how much land CA's brother owned in 1974?

I got lost.
I thought that theory with organised crime being behind the disappearance relies on a scenario in which they were either:
a) lured to the car with someone they knew/trusted/knew_and_trusted at the Mall and abducted,
b) somehow in the wrong place/wrong time, whitnessed something that they shouldn't and disposed of in order to silence them,
c) same as "b", just haven't whitnessed anything, got abducted cause some local/close members of organised crime saw the opportunity to abduct three young girls,
OR
d) set up by someone close to them and involved with organised crime, with that person being responsible for them being in the place and time convenient for abduction.

I'm completely lost with organised crime being somehow involved... after someone accidentally killed one of them and murdered the other two... showing up hours after cops were called to pick up bodies from one of the girls home... helping someone who felt like helping their acquaintance to cover up for triple murder of minor girls.
Criminal minds are often working so weird that is next to impossible to figure out the logic and reasoning behind their actions, but organised crime is usually pretty logical and efficient cause their main point of focus is to run and keep running their illegal business.
Are gang members in Texas known to do similar stuff?

I don't know, maybe I'm lacking some context here or something but why those things would be connected?

 

[FW_Froggy]

I got lost.
I thought that theory with organised crime being behind the disappearance relies on a scenario in which they were either:
a) lured to the car with someone they knew/trusted/knew_and_trusted at the Mall and abducted,
b) somehow in the wrong place/wrong time, whitnessed something that they shouldn't and disposed of in order to silence them,
c) same as "b", just haven't whitnessed anything, got abducted cause some local/close members of organised crime saw the opportunity to abduct three young girls,
OR
d) set up by someone close to them and involved with organised crime, with that person being responsible for them being in the place and time convenient for abduction.

I'm completely lost with organised crime being somehow involved... after someone accidentally killed one of them and murdered the other two... showing up hours after cops were called to pick up bodies from one of the girls home... helping someone who felt like helping their acquaintance to cover up for triple murder of minor girls.
Criminal minds are often working so weird that is next to impossible to figure out the logic and reasoning behind their actions, but organised crime is usually pretty logical and efficient cause their main point of focus is to run and keep running their illegal business.
Are gang members in Texas known to do similar stuff?

I don't know, maybe I'm lacking some context here or something but why those things would be connected?

I just think when 3 people disappear without a trace for 48 years organized crime has to be considered. DA is dancing in a strip club owned by a guy who owns over 17 strip clubs. DA is going to the cellar in Fort Worth at 16 years old. DA goes to Houston and just decides to dance while she's there. A President was shot in the head in Dallas and the owner of a strip club just walked in the Police station and walked up to Oswald and shot and killed him. DA has biker boyfriends. Strip clubs are full of bikers for security. I read books on organized crime and in the 70's they owned crematories. No bodies 48 years just makes sense to me. I in NO way think OC killed the 3 girls but I sure think they may of had a hand in the disposal.