TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8

[jetsfanjohn]

Well Im just gonna have to agree to disagree because I still say that a teenage boy buying, in his own words, his first ever promise ring would remember more details about getting that ring!

I would agree as well. He would more than likely remember. Not sure what relevance TMs recollection/nonrecollection of a ring he bought nearly 50 years has to do with the case of three missing girls, though. I feel this thread is at times meandering off point. JMO.

 

[beubeubeu]

I would agree as well. He would more than likely remember. Not sure what relevance TMs recollection/nonrecollection of a ring he bought nearly 50 years has to do with the case of three missing girls, though. I feel this thread is at times meandering off point. JMO.

Having so much doubt in so many details here rabbitholes are impossible to avoid, cause everything may be suddenly relevant. It's probably nothing, cause I don't see how could it be something... unless maybe someone gave TM the ring, bought it for him and convinced him to give it to Renee that morning. What scenario that could imply I have no idea.
But I also have no idea what on Earth was going on with the M's family.
Dad suddenly moving across the street from wife and kids to live with another woman.

Allegedly not supporting the older two, but taking the youngest with him... I don't understand that. Not at all. Okay, youngest kid, mom working a lot, it would make sense if living with the dad would provide her with his or his new partner supervision during the day (or from someone who's living there). But there is nothing clear about that. Who was supposed to watch Julie? Where she actually went when they said "home" to call her mom and ask for permission. And why was she asking mom for permission if she wasn't even living with her then? Why she didn't call dad? Okay, maybe he was at work and couldn't pick up the call. But shouldn't she be asking the person who was watching her first?
Okay, we can assume that her siblings were supposed to do that, cause they were free from school as well. BUT if so, then why would she be sooo excited to go to the mall with Renee and Rachel if her sister and friend were ALSO going to the mall, and on top of that even planning to hang out with Renee and Rachel then? What was so exciting in that then? And why mom's hesitation to allow her to go, if JM was going as well?

On one side we have Julie's mom account in which she seems reluctant and certainly not aware of any mall-going plans. No mention of the person who was supposed to watch her. No mention of questions about TM or JM, instead there is a mention that mom was reluctant to let her go cause Julie didn't have any money.
But how did she knew that Julie has no money if Julie wasn't living with her. Cause she asked? Possibly, but at least her sister had to have at least a bit of pocket money for that lunch at the mall, right? Unless the friend was paying. Or grandma gave them something while giving them a lift?
On the other side we have majority of these kids heading to the mall.

Distant fathers who are abandoning their families could be not interested in anything that happens to their kids. But if Julie was living with him for significant period of time... why on Earth he doesn't seem to be involved in the search at all? He's not showing up anywhere, he's not pleading for his daughter's return, giving any statements to the press.

I absolutely hate the way TM was talking about his mom. I hate it. It gives me all sorts of bad vibes, terrible vibes. As far as I remember he wasn't talking bad about her, but... well, at least my impression was that he was kinda bragging about being so sneaky to have VB live with them without his mom's knowledge.
Addind to that the fact that dad was living across the street and took one child with him makes me wonder if he (dad) had a habit of belittling and fooling the mom that went passed on TM.

I'm probably heading straight for some conspiracy levels now, but I wonder... TM said that he left the driveway. JM says that she doesn't remember anything. Friend doesn't remember much and grandma wasn't with them. Clerks at Army Navy didn't saw the girls. Then who's the source of claim that Renee and Rachel were reluctant to take Julie with them, cause I'm kinda lost at this point?
And how do we know (apart from alleged Shawn's mom claim to meet them all at Minot, whis isn't supported by anything) that Julie even went with them? Unless there were other stops and whitnesses seeing Julie with them - Julie's mom didn't saw anything or anyone, cause it was just a call. How do we know that it was Julie's idea to call, and not an result of someone convincing Julie to call and claim that she wants to go with Renee and Rachel? Some weird motives had to be behind that, but this whole case is weird.

 

[spartanx]

This is the post with the most responses that I have seen in websleuths because I imagine that everyone knows something, they are someone's neighbor, they know a witness or the mother of the little ones or anything like that. I also imagine that I am not the only one who is surprised that such a little girl is married... this case even has a page on wikipedia... not all cases have only the most striking or strange ones so to speak... it's really very strange how 3 girls disappear like that out of nowhere even though I It gives the impression that Rachel was sent to Mexico, perhaps to prostitute her, but she must be dead by now... but here what remains is a family destroyed and damaged forever, and peace will never return to their lives until her body is found or his remains or at least it is known what happened to her... and since everything is more than said here in this post...
rest in peace Mary Rachel

 

[beubeubeu]

Clerks at Army Navy didn't saw the girls.

I meant "didn't saw all the girls" - cause only Renee & Rachel.

 

[beubeubeu]

What's confusing me the most is the relevance of JM, TM, DA, RA and all the other's memory issues.
What that "I don't remember" even means?
That they didn't care enough to qualify that as important memory?
Or that they went into such a shock that they were unable to remember right away?
Cause if it's "I was advised to not share anything more specific about this for the sake of the investigation" then saying exactly that would cause much less speculation.

Nobody jumped at them out of nowhere to ask what they were doing on a random day 25, 35, 45 years ago. This was very important day and a turning point, it affected them for the rest of their lives.
Yeah, it's completely understandable and possible to not remember much or not be very accurate after so many years. Easy to get confused, easy to fell into false memories even (if exposed for years on someone insisting on their version of events), easy to go crazy after decades of more or less formal interviews, cause that's how human mind works.
But this shouldn't matter at all, they all should have access to their own notes, or somebody's (parent's) notes from the time when those memories were still vivid.

FA kept her notes, and I'd tend to believe that as far as she was aware these are completely accurate, despite of being chaotic. But that's FA.
It appears like W's were keeping their records (as much as they could get) straight too.
With Julie's family (except for mom who I got under impression was trying to do her best but failed), DA and TT it looks like there is no such thing.
I could give DA a pass, cause she was still pretty young... but she got pretty invested into "investigating" the disappearance on her own pretty quick, so her "pass" gets taken away, unless she was regularily on dope even then - if she was, then okay, I fully understand her confusion.
But there is no, absolutely no explanation for TT and M's.
Cause TT was an adult guy at the time.
With TM, if it was just TM alone, then being 15, possibly drinking or smoking weed on that day on directly after - okay, that surely could damage his ability to remember everything straight no matter how much he'd wish to recall that.
Same thing with VB actually. He could be lying about some stuff.. or so high/drunk at times to struggle a lot with telling what happened when and what never happened at all, cause that's sad reality of substance abuse. And it affects earlier memories too.
But there was also a father there. By no means a distant father who abandoned them (as some sources led many to believe). He was just there and lived with Julie. And unlike the mom, nobody complained about his substance abuse down spiral after the disappearance. He's almost not discussed at all. Could be that he was just this kind of personality that suffers in silence endlessly - that's possible, that could explain his lack of media presence. But it does not explain JM's and TM's confusion.
Cause any even half decent father would ask his kids what they remember, what they were doing, when, who they saw, if there was anything that caused them to feel weird and so on - right away. Getting that info, not knowing what happened to Julie, fearing her being dead, wanting to protect other kids from trauma could cause him to not discuss it for some time, couple years maybe, till they're grown up. And then discussing it again, showing them his notes... or something like that.

That surely is a red flag there.
Lots of red flags around this dad.
Lots of red flags around DA&TT.
Lots of them around FA&CA.
Some or even all of them may not be related to the disappearance at all, but what about the PI's claim that ALL the families were troubled and had something to hide?
Lies or was there something disturbing about W's too?

 

[Brightchaser47]

What's confusing me the most is the relevance of JM, TM, DA, RA and all the other's memory issues.
What that "I don't remember" even means?
That they didn't care enough to qualify that as important memory?
Or that they went into such a shock that they were unable to remember right away?

It could be a case of going from, "OMG, I can't believe what just happened", to "OMG, I can't let on that I know anything".

Cause if it's "I was advised to not share anything more specific about this for the sake of the investigation" then saying exactly that would cause much less speculation.

I think people would still speculate, but the above-mentioned characters would appear more "above board", IMO.

FA kept her notes, and I'd tend to believe that as far as she was aware these are completely accurate, despite of being chaotic. But that's FA.
It appears like W's were keeping their records (as much as they could get) straight too.
With Julie's family (except for mom who I got under impression was trying to do her best but failed), DA and TT it looks like there is no such thing.
I could give DA a pass, cause she was still pretty young... but she got pretty invested into "investigating" the disappearance on her own pretty quick, so her "pass" gets taken away, unless she was regularily on dope even then - if she was, then okay, I fully understand her confusion.
But there is no, absolutely no explanation for TT and M's.
Cause TT was an adult guy at the time.
With TM, if it was just TM alone, then being 15, possibly drinking or smoking weed on that day on directly after - okay, that surely could damage his ability to remember everything straight no matter how much he'd wish to recall that.
Same thing with VB actually. He could be lying about some stuff.. or so high/drunk at times to struggle a lot with telling what happened when and what never happened at all, cause that's sad reality of substance abuse. And it affects earlier memories too.

If these people really were doing drugs, I can see where they'd be a) unable to accurately recall things, and b) reluctant to admit that's  why they can't recall something, however important.

But there was also a father there. By no means a distant father who abandoned them (as some sources led many to believe). He was just there and lived with Julie. And unlike the mom, nobody complained about his substance abuse down spiral after the disappearance. He's almost not discussed at all. Could be that he was just this kind of personality that suffers in silence endlessly - that's possible, that could explain his lack of media presence. But it does not explain JM's and TM's confusion.
Cause any even half decent father would ask his kids what they remember, what they were doing, when, who they saw, if there was anything that caused them to feel weird and so on - right away. Getting that info, not knowing what happened to Julie, fearing her being dead, wanting to protect other kids from trauma could cause him to not discuss it for some time, couple years maybe, till they're grown up. And then discussing it again, showing them his notes... or something like that.

Do we know for certain that Mr. M  didn't do any of that?

That surely is a red flag there.
Lots of red flags around this dad.
Lots of red flags around DA&TT.
Lots of them around FA&CA.
Some or even all of them may not be related to the disappearance at all, but what about the PI's claim that ALL the families were troubled and had something to hide?

Did that PI ever offer good reason for claiming that, or was he just throwing it out there, to get a response? It's been mentioned he did that a lot.

 

[beubeubeu]

Do we know for certain that Mr. M  didn't do any of that?

I only know for certain that I never stumbled on any hint that he did (but I wasn't thinking that's odd cause I kept assuming that he just abandoned family and moved on with his new life like some fathers do).

Did that PI ever offer good reason for claiming that, or was he just throwing it out there, to get a response? It's been mentioned he did that a lot.

Of course he didn't. But since the others had some things that to the very least appear like that to the public, then... I don't recall anything that would make W's appear like that.

 

[FW_Froggy]

It was said that DJ upset ALL THREE of the families. I guess that's why I like him so much at least he dug up dirt on everybody.

 

[Pricklykitty]

I wonder how far back the lack of memory thing started. I see TM repeatedly use the reason it was over 40 years ago so that makes it understandable to have forgotten. Like Beubeubeu says though, its not just a random day they are recalling but a life changing day.
But I wonder what they were saying 30, 20, 10 years ago, when memories should have been clearer?

 

[Brightchaser47]

I wonder how far back the lack of memory thing started. I see TM repeatedly use the reason it was over 40 years ago so that makes it understandable to have forgotten. Like Beubeubeu says though, its not just a random day they are recalling but a life changing day.
But I wonder what they were saying 30, 20, 10 years ago, when memories should have been clearer?

I agree, but it may still have been, "I was young, I was high/drunk, etc"...still true, still somewhat evasive (IMO).

 

[beubeubeu]

It was said that DJ upset ALL THREE of the families. I guess that's why I like him so much at least he dug up dirt on everybody.

So he found some kind of dirt about W's?

 

[T rex]

I wonder how far back the lack of memory thing started. I see TM repeatedly use the reason it was over 40 years ago so that makes it understandable to have forgotten. Like Beubeubeu says though, its not just a random day they are recalling but a life changing day.
But I wonder what they were saying 30, 20, 10 years ago, when memories should have been clearer?

Since we can't seem to get a good timeline on things people said happened then maybe we could get a timeline on when they said it. I'd like to know how much of this chatter started up after the 2001 press conference.

 

[beubeubeu]

I agree, but it may still have been, "I was young, I was high/drunk, etc"...still true, still somewhat evasive (IMO).

f their perceptions were affected by drugs or alcohol at the time, then that reason would not change with time, unless they'd be still heavy users.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Since we can't seem to get a good timeline on things people said happened then maybe we could get a timeline on when they said it. I'd like to know how much of this chatter started up after the 2001 press conference.

I think the case was COLD as ICE up till 2001 then warm for a year then COLD as ICE again till RA started talking about pulling up cars from Benbrook Lake and that was the most renewed interest since 1975 IMO. Then the Wilsons and Moseleys broke from RA over where ALL the money that was donated went. Then after Mr. Wilson died TM started talking more and RA SHUT UP and became close to DA.

 

[beubeubeu]

I think the case was COLD as ICE up till 2001 then warm for a year then COLD as ICE again till RA started talking about pulling up cars from Benbrook Lake and that was the most renewed interest since 1975 IMO. Then the Wilsons and Moseleys broke from RA over where ALL the money that was donated went. Then after Mr. Wilson died TM started talking more and RA SHUT UP and became close to DA.

So...
TM was reluctant to speak much till RW was alive.
Some other reason or cause RW could point out some inaccurate parts in his accounts?

RA was all over everything and everyone till he got exposed for not being transparent (and possibly reasonable) with donated money.
Well, unless he was going full on fraud from the very beginning, which I don't think he did, that outcome puts some shade at his ability to investigate anything. Cause how, if not keeping everything clear and transparent?

And then he got back to DA and suddenly stopped blaming her. Sometime after DJ died.

But at the end of the day it's not really possible to tell if/who is just very troubled soul and who's hiding something significant to the case and it may stay like that forever cause nobody's really investigating it?

 

[FW_Froggy]

So...
TM was reluctant to speak much till RW was alive.
Some other reason or cause RW could point out some inaccurate parts in his accounts?

RA was all over everything and everyone till he got exposed for not being transparent (and possibly reasonable) with donated money.
Well, unless he was going full on fraud from the very beginning, which I don't think he did, that outcome puts some shade at his ability to investigate anything. Cause how, if not keeping everything clear and transparent?

And then he got back to DA and suddenly stopped blaming her. Sometime after DJ died.

But at the end of the day it's not really possible to tell if/who is just very troubled soul and who's hiding something significant to the case and it may stay like that forever cause nobody's really i

So...
TM was reluctant to speak much till RW was alive.
Some other reason or cause RW could point out some inaccurate parts in his accounts?

RA was all over everything and everyone till he got exposed for not being transparent (and possibly reasonable) with donated money.
Well, unless he was going full on fraud from the very beginning, which I don't think he did, that outcome puts some shade at his ability to investigate anything. Cause how, if not keeping everything clear and transparent?

And then he got back to DA and suddenly stopped blaming her. Sometime after DJ died.

But at the end of the day it's not really possible to tell if/who is just very troubled soul and who's hiding something significant to the case and it may stay like that forever cause nobody's really investigating it?

Without finding a Body nobody can prove they didn't run away. I agree with you without finding a body the case will NEVER be solved.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Some other reason or cause RW could point out some inaccurate parts in his accounts?

If that's the case, how do  we know what parts to believe now?

And then he got back to DA and suddenly stopped blaming her. Sometime after DJ died.

Maybe RA needed a "safety net" after DJ died.

But at the end of the day it's not really possible to tell if/who is just very troubled soul and who's hiding something significant to the case and it may stay like that forever cause nobody's really investigating it?

Sad, but true. FWPD Cold Case Unit isn't currently working on it. But it  would be  very helpful if those who know something could let go of whatever holds them back. Sometimes people hold onto grudges, fear, guilt, etc. for so long, it becomes part of their identity. They don't know who they are without it. They become the "walking dead". JMO

 

[Pricklykitty]

So...
TM was reluctant to speak much till RW was alive.
Some other reason or cause RW could point out some inaccurate parts in his accounts?

Just my impression but I feel like TM feared Mr W in some way. Maybe because Mr W was one of the only people in this case who didn't seem to suffer with memory loss, and wouldn't let anything slip past him without chasing it up.

 

[JohnGalt78]

I think the case was COLD as ICE up till 2001 then warm for a year then COLD as ICE again till RA started talking about pulling up cars from Benbrook Lake and that was the most renewed interest since 1975 IMO. Then the Wilsons and Moseleys broke from RA over where ALL the money that was donated went. Then after Mr. Wilson died TM started talking more and RA SHUT UP and became close to DA.

I first read about this case in the Fort Worth Star Telegram around the time I was pregnant with my first child in 2007-08. I was so upset that Julie, a 9 year old, was considered a runaway, and it being Christmas seemed to make it that much worse. My baby had colic so while I was holding him all the time I read everything I could about this case. I was obsessed and read everything and even donated to the fundraiser when they were selling t-shirts. I saw some crazy accusations and drama being thrown around in on line forums by family members. TM was very vocal on some social media and he never seemed as dramatic or accusatory as other family members. I remember him saying he and VB were drinking whiskey the afternoon the girls went missing. This was after he gave Renee the ring that morning. I never read anything about anyone having surgery that day. I also never read anything about Mr. Moseley living across the street or having custody of Julie. In fact I read he traveled and wasn’t even in town and Ms. Moseley raised the kids by herself. I was also under the impression Renee’s grandmother lived across the street from the Moseley’s and the grandmother and/or Renee(when she was there) sometimes babysat Julie. I didn’t take notes or screenshots but I went down every rabbit hole I could find online. I feel horrible for all the families but still feel TT, DA, and FA hold the answers.

 

[beubeubeu]

If that's the case, how do  we know what parts to believe now?

We don't. And we won't get it much clearer by just analysing what's out there.
This may be the case.
But it could as well be caused by - for example TM feeling responsible for not being with Renee and Julie on that day and staying low cause of feeling that he failed also Mr.W by not protecting his daughter... especially if TM knew that Mr.W knew that he put doing something dumb (like drinking or smoking weed) "over" Renee.