TX TX - Thomas Brown, 18, Hemphill County, 23 Nov 2016 #4

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nannymo said:
If TB committed suicide, this is how I see it happening: He drives out to Lake Marvin Road, places his backpack and other items found down the road, drives back into town, parks his car at the water treatment plant at 6:30AM, walks 3-4 miles where his body is found, kills himself by an unknown means around 7:30AM? He has to cross the Canadian river and I don't have a clue as to the terrain he is crossing, all on a frigid night/morning with nothing but a light jacket on? I guess he could have died from hypothermia after going through the river.

I am not familiar with Canadian and the landscape of this scenario. Maybe someone who understands where he was actually found and how he could get there without his vehicle can see if this scenario would work.

I, myself just do not see the possibility. Why park your car 3-4 miles away and walk to where you commit suicide? And wouldn't the helicopter have been up while he was walking? I just can't wrap my head around it with what we know to be acts today.

And I am not even going to try to understand the timeline for an assisted suicide. IMO not going there!
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This theory is not plausible, IMHO, because of the distance and the weather (it was freezing cold). But also you have to ask why....why would he go to Lake Marvin and scatter his belongings, then drive to town, park his car at the treatment plant, cross a flowing freezing river and hike back towards Lake Marvin only to kill himself. Why would he do that? If he wanted to kill himself, he could have at the treatment plant. Or he could have when he was scattering his belongings. And all the while, risk someone seeing him?

Tom wasn't an in-shape, super athletic kid. I seriously doubt hiking in the cold would be on the list of things he would choose to do himself.

Now assisted suicide...we haven't discussed this, but I also dont think its likely unless someone comes forward and is using that theory as a way to shift the blame from an accidental killing to 'I was only helping him'.
 
jellybean96 said:
This theory is not plausible, IMHO, because of the distance and the weather (it was freezing cold). But also you have to ask why....why would he go to Lake Marvin and scatter his belongings, then drive to town, park his car at the treatment plant, cross a flowing freezing river and hike back towards Lake Marvin only to kill himself. Why would he do that? If he wanted to kill himself, he could have at the treatment plant. Or he could have when he was scattering his belongings. And all the while, risk someone seeing him?

Tom wasn't an in-shape, super athletic kid. I seriously doubt hiking in the cold would be on the list of things he would choose to do himself.

Now assisted suicide...we haven't discussed this, but I also dont think its likely unless someone comes forward and is using that theory as a way to shift the blame from an accidental killing to 'I was only helping him'.
Click to expand...
I don't see this as an assisted suicide. If it was suicide, he, imo, would have done it on his own. While driving during the night, he could have tossed his belongings then. And, imo, hypothermia is definitely a possibility.
 
jellybean96 said:
This theory is not plausible, IMHO, because of the distance and the weather (it was freezing cold). But also you have to ask why....why would he go to Lake Marvin and scatter his belongings, then drive to town, park his car at the treatment plant, cross a flowing freezing river and hike back towards Lake Marvin only to kill himself. Why would he do that? If he wanted to kill himself, he could have at the treatment plant. Or he could have when he was scattering his belongings. And all the while, risk someone seeing him?

Tom wasn't an in-shape, super athletic kid. I seriously doubt hiking in the cold would be on the list of things he would choose to do himself.

Now assisted suicide...we haven't discussed this, but I also dont think its likely unless someone comes forward and is using that theory as a way to shift the blame from an accidental killing to 'I was only helping him'.
Click to expand...

This is my point exactly! Agree 100%! It just isn't plausible! IMO
 
For those who believe suicide happened to Tom.....

HOW did he do it? No gun was found where his body was (do you think he shot himself, then hiked 10+ miles to where he was found?). No rope that he could have hung himself. He didn't walk out in front of a train or a jump off a bridge. He didn't drown himself. Nothing suggests he poisoned himself. What is your theory on how he did it.
 
jellybean96 said:
For those who believe suicide happened to Tom.....

HOW did he do it? No gun was found where his body was (do you think he shot himself, then hiked 10+ miles to where he was found?). No rope that he could have hung himself. He didn't walk out in front of a train or a jump off a bridge. He didn't drown himself. Nothing suggests he poisoned himself. What is your theory on how he did it.
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I think he died from hypothermia. No suicide, and no murder.
 
Let me state I really don't see this happening......BUT!

www.timeanddate.com

Weather in November 2016 in Canadian, Texas, USA

Weather reports from November 2016 in Canadian, Texas, USA with highs and lows
www.timeanddate.com www.timeanddate.com
From this link I see the temps on Wednesday night thru Thursday to be between 37 to 64 degrees. To me this is too warm for hypothermia to set in.

Hypothermia|Winter Weather From this link: BBM
"While hypothermia is most likely at very cold temperatures, it can occur even at cool temperatures (above 40°F) if a person becomes chilled from rain, sweat, or submersion in cold water."

Did Thomas park his Durango, walk toward Lake Marvin Road (as a crow flies, not on roads), cross the river and hypothermia set in at 40 degrees or so because he was wet? He continued walking to the spot he was found?

I think this scenario hard to believe, but feel it could be possible. Just not sure, but a possibility. Has anyone discussed hypothermia before?
 
nannymo said:
Let me state I really don't see this happening......BUT!

www.timeanddate.com

Weather in November 2016 in Canadian, Texas, USA

Weather reports from November 2016 in Canadian, Texas, USA with highs and lows
www.timeanddate.com www.timeanddate.com
From this link I see the temps on Wednesday night thru Thursday to be between 37 to 64 degrees. To me this is too warm for hypothermia to set in.

Hypothermia|Winter Weather From this link: BBM
"While hypothermia is most likely at very cold temperatures, it can occur even at cool temperatures (above 40°F) if a person becomes chilled from rain, sweat, or submersion in cold water."

Did Thomas park his Durango, walk toward Lake Marvin Road (as a crow flies, not on roads), cross the river and hypothermia set in at 40 degrees or so because he was wet? He continued walking to the spot he was found?

I think this scenario hard to believe, but feel it could be possible. Just not sure, but a possibility. Has anyone discussed hypothermia before?
Click to expand...
Well, I did quite a while ago but it wasn't a very popular option at the time and no one responded. IMO, this makes as much sense as anything else.

A good friend of mine ( senior in H.S) attended a school Christmas party at a local country club. Something set her off at the party and she ran approx. 9 miles on rural dirt roads at around midnight during 35 ° weather to reach a house where some of us were playing cards. She was shoeless and had no coat on.

She was never the same after that. But then, she wasn't the friend I knew before that happened either. Imo, we were too young to spot the signs of depression and how seriously in trouble she was. I believe there was a suicide attempt and that's what finally prompted her parents to get her help.

The point I'm making is....it happened at Christmas vacation during our senior year.
She ran about 9 miles without a jacket and shoes, on pitch black rural roads around midnight during the cold. It caught all of us by surprise. Had she not made it to the house, who knows what would have happened. And thank God it didn't.
 
nannymo said:
Let me state I really don't see this happening......BUT!

www.timeanddate.com

Weather in November 2016 in Canadian, Texas, USA

Weather reports from November 2016 in Canadian, Texas, USA with highs and lows
www.timeanddate.com www.timeanddate.com
From this link I see the temps on Wednesday night thru Thursday to be between 37 to 64 degrees. To me this is too warm for hypothermia to set in.

Hypothermia|Winter Weather From this link: BBM
"While hypothermia is most likely at very cold temperatures, it can occur even at cool temperatures (above 40°F) if a person becomes chilled from rain, sweat, or submersion in cold water."

Did Thomas park his Durango, walk toward Lake Marvin Road (as a crow flies, not on roads), cross the river and hypothermia set in at 40 degrees or so because he was wet? He continued walking to the spot he was found?

I think this scenario hard to believe, but feel it could be possible. Just not sure, but a possibility. Has anyone discussed hypothermia before?
Click to expand...

We haven't really discussed it, no. For me, the reason I don't think its a viable theory is because of the trauma to his head that was noted in the autopsy. I dont have my notes in front of me, but I recall there being blunt force trauma to his head. So if this was hypothermia, then an animal would have had to cause the trauma and I just dont see that. In this area, whitetail deer, turkeys, quail, dove, jackrabbits, prairie dogs are all common.

Would an animal eat any remains? Yes. Scatter them? Also yes. But I can't see any of the wildlife that is found out there, causing blunt force trauma to his skull. There were no cattle or horses out there, that could trample Tom. The only animal that I can think of, off the top of my head, that *might* be out there (and I don't know if they are actually there or not) that could cause blunt force trauma would be a feral hog. And according to Google, a wild hog attacking a human is rare and uncommon. So rare, that only 4 people in the US have died by from a feral hog attack since the 1800's.


So lets assume that Tom was the 5th victim that a feral hog attacked him and caused his blunt force trauma that was noted in the autopsy. Thomas had walked all this way ---- miles and miles ---- with nothing on him to commit suicide. No gun, no rope. No poison. So was his big suicide plan to freeze to death? I can think of thousands of other ways that I could cause my own death that would be quicker and less painful. Maybe he wasn't thinking clearly......but his friends have all said he was laughing and nothing was amiss. Sure, they might not have noticed any signs at the time, but I would think now that they are looking back, they could have see some they missed. But they haven't.

I just dont think this was suicide. Or hypothermia. Or an animal attack pre-death.
 
jellybean96 said:
We haven't really discussed it, no. For me, the reason I don't think its a viable theory is because of the trauma to his head that was noted in the autopsy. I dont have my notes in front of me, but I recall there being blunt force trauma to his head. So if this was hypothermia, then an animal would have had to cause the trauma and I just dont see that. In this area, whitetail deer, turkeys, quail, dove, jackrabbits, prairie dogs are all common.

Would an animal eat any remains? Yes. Scatter them? Also yes. But I can't see any of the wildlife that is found out there, causing blunt force trauma to his skull. There were no cattle or horses out there, that could trample Tom. The only animal that I can think of, off the top of my head, that *might* be out there (and I don't know if they are actually there or not) that could cause blunt force trauma would be a feral hog. And according to Google, a wild hog attacking a human is rare and uncommon. So rare, that only 4 people in the US have died by from a feral hog attack since the 1800's.


So lets assume that Tom was the 5th victim that a feral hog attacked him and caused his blunt force trauma that was noted in the autopsy. Thomas had walked all this way ---- miles and miles ---- with nothing on him to commit suicide. No gun, no rope. No poison. So was his big suicide plan to freeze to death? I can think of thousands of other ways that I could cause my own death that would be quicker and less painful. Maybe he wasn't thinking clearly......but his friends have all said he was laughing and nothing was amiss. Sure, they might not have noticed any signs at the time, but I would think now that they are looking back, they could have see some they missed. But they haven't.

I just dont think this was suicide. Or hypothermia. Or an animal attack pre-death.
Click to expand...
The autopsy report wasn't, imo, clear if this was a previous injury or one sustained from recently being struck. It was in an area above the right or left eye (?) but was not definitive on cause, when it occurred or if it was a blow that caused his death. After all, no one could say for certain what happened to TB or how he died.
 
jellybean96 said:
We haven't really discussed it, no. For me, the reason I don't think its a viable theory is because of the trauma to his head that was noted in the autopsy. I dont have my notes in front of me, but I recall there being blunt force trauma to his head. So if this was hypothermia, then an animal would have had to cause the trauma and I just dont see that. In this area, whitetail deer, turkeys, quail, dove, jackrabbits, prairie dogs are all common.

Would an animal eat any remains? Yes. Scatter them? Also yes. But I can't see any of the wildlife that is found out there, causing blunt force trauma to his skull. There were no cattle or horses out there, that could trample Tom. The only animal that I can think of, off the top of my head, that *might* be out there (and I don't know if they are actually there or not) that could cause blunt force trauma would be a feral hog. And according to Google, a wild hog attacking a human is rare and uncommon. So rare, that only 4 people in the US have died by from a feral hog attack since the 1800's.


So lets assume that Tom was the 5th victim that a feral hog attacked him and caused his blunt force trauma that was noted in the autopsy. Thomas had walked all this way ---- miles and miles ---- with nothing on him to commit suicide. No gun, no rope. No poison. So was his big suicide plan to freeze to death? I can think of thousands of other ways that I could cause my own death that would be quicker and less painful. Maybe he wasn't thinking clearly......but his friends have all said he was laughing and nothing was amiss. Sure, they might not have noticed any signs at the time, but I would think now that they are looking back, they could have see some they missed. But they haven't.

I just dont think this was suicide. Or hypothermia. Or an animal attack pre-death.
Click to expand...

Excellent points jellybean. IIRC the autopsy stated it could not determine if the blunt force trauma was pre or post mortem. Your point about the animals that could cause that are spot on. I am no expert, but I would think ferral hogs would leave teeth marks on the bones. And blunt force trauma would be from a much larger animal. I agree with you. Blunt force trauma pretty much rules out assisted suicide for me also. JMO
 
Razz, I respect your opinions and enjoy having someone of the opposite opinion on this thread.

Thanks for hanging around in here.....your thoughts keep me thinking outside the box, but I just can't get suicide to fit for me......

I agree there were a lot of things possibly on his mind he wasn't discussing with his Mom, but one could say that about any high school kid. I worked with a man who committed suicide. He was bi-polar. No one saw it coming, but he had a lot of problems. Long story, but bi-polar people usually commit suicide during times of complete normalcy because that is the only time their brains are thinking rationally.

I am with jellybean here.
 
nannymo said:
Razz, I respect your opinions and enjoy having someone of the opposite opinion on this thread.

Thanks for hanging around in here.....your thoughts keep me thinking outside the box, but I just can't get suicide to fit for me......

I agree there were a lot of things possibly on his mind he wasn't discussing with his Mom, but one could say that about any high school kid. I worked with a man who committed suicide. He was bi-polar. No one saw it coming, but he had a lot of problems. Long story, but bi-polar people usually commit suicide during times of complete normalcy because that is the only time their brains are thinking rationally.

I am with jellybean here.
Click to expand...
Thanks Nannymo. I think we all want the same thing and that's to find out what happened to Tom. I appreciate those who have considered my angle. I hope that something someday comes to light that will enable ALL of us to put this to rest and provide TB and his family some modicum of peace.
 
jellybean96 said:
For those who believe suicide happened to Tom.....

HOW did he do it? No gun was found where his body was (do you think he shot himself, then hiked 10+ miles to where he was found?). No rope that he could have hung himself. He didn't walk out in front of a train or a jump off a bridge. He didn't drown himself. Nothing suggests he poisoned himself. What is your theory on how he did it.
Click to expand...

@jellybean96 The AGs report discusses this evidence to be in line with a homicide- the shell casing and blood stains in the Durango, the distance between Tom’s belongings to his remains and the car, and the evidence of blunt force trauma to the skull.

If we build the suicide narrative around those points - it’s tricky to fit those pieces. The distance between his effects and his remains is odd but let’s say for this attempt to build the scenario of suicide, he walked to Lake Marvin with his backpack, dropped it off and died, of hypothermia or self inflicted gunshot, or some other self inflicted way.

We would still need to address the blood in his car and the shell casing. The blood on the car door handle and the accelerator does fit with someone driving the car who was in contact with a considerable amount of blood. A possible scenario is that Thomas may have been beaten then shot and someone drove his car getting Tom’s blood on the door handle and the accelerator. The gun may have been fired near the open car door allowing the shell casing to fly into the car.

For a suicide to conform with the evidence, a gun was fired in his vicinity and he hurt himself before parking at the Water Treatment Plant - leaving behind the casing and blood stains then heading off to lake Marvin. Meaning, he made that 10 /14 mile hike already bleeding and injured (?) Then somehow perhaps bashing his skull once he gets to Lake Marvin (?) (or not if it was post mortem) Overall, the narrative for suicide or an accidental death becomes clunky at best when you try and fit all the pieces.
 
BTW Balloon Light. I don't think jellybean thinks he committed suicide. That's what she is stating. The evidence just isn't there.
 
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