TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

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I love Websleuths, it's the best forum to get true crime info. I am amazed at the information Websleuthers dig up and the coherent theories they developed. It is a team effort, with members from backgrounds and specializations adding vital information and insight to understand crimes.

These two threads on the Uvalde shooting are wonderful examples of the shifting information available on this event: the fog of war. I believe it's a combination of

1. Spokespersons not having sufficient information.
2. Spillover from the gun rights debate, which emphasizes different details to support their viewpoint. E.g. "the open door" deflects from the gunman, LE mistakes, and let's face it, I can't remember a school that did not have doors propped open. There were multiple failures resulting in an event cascade.
3. Intentional lying, most likely to cover mistakes made by different entities.

JMO
 
Towards the end of the school year, my son's elementary would have outdoor game Olympics. I and other parents would volunteer. We would leave the back door open so the teachers not yet playing wouldn't have to get out to open the locked door every five minutes.
I hope they realize now that propping the door open isn’t a good idea.
 
I don't know the laws in Texas, but in NY state we are considered to be acting in loco parentis during the school day.

Before we get anywhere near being the only adult in a room full of minors, we have to have a Bachelor's Degree, get our Master's Degree within a certain time frame, be fingerprinted to assure that we have no criminal history, pass several teacher exams, take additional education classes, take child abuse awareness classes and student teach.

However if a student is habitually absent, the parent may lose custody due to educational neglect. In this case apparently the grandparents would not get legal custody either, since they couldn't get him to go to school. The grandfather's felony record---I don't know if that would be a factor or not.

It is not the teacher's call to contact what here is labeled ACS. That would be the call of a supervisor or guidance counselor.

Therefore, SR would be remanded to state care in NY. In a state facility he would be searched and watched over, particularly if he was diagnosed with any mental health issues. That would be standard because it's assumed that a child in state custody is already enduring many stressors.

However, once a child has turned 18, all bets are off. No one has to have custody of him and he doesn't have to go to school. Unfortunately he'd already turned 18.

I agree with you, intervention had to be enforced much earlier in his life.
Identifying or "flagging" students is a huge problem. HUGE. I taught for over 25 years - having started a few years before Columbine.

In all those years I had students that "concerned" me greatly. Not a lot - in total maybe, over all those years only 7 or 8.

Yes, I would go to administration. Sometimes I would get shot down from the get-go. Given excuses of why he is "like he is" or they fall back on the conditions of his life outside of the school. But, even when the parent(s) came in (and I never had a serious concern about a student that had both parents in his life - think about that one). The parents for the most part will rail against this. They don't want their child labeled. The "he's not like this at home" reply is standard. And they will fight against any type of action to be taken (I think they are afraid of loosing custody).

Look at Sandy Hook - AL's mom was in complete denial. She even bought him the guns. Newtown turned on her and she was never recognized by that community as a victim - that's HOW BAD that community felt about her denial and lack of action and denial. Now, in Uvalde, this mom is trying to deflect and excuse and even explain her son and his behavior / actions. What about the one in Michigan - again, those parents bought him the gun, when called to the school over their concerns they refused to take him home. That one is so egregious that authorities have charged both parents!!!

I taught 5th grade for the majority of my career. I would get to know my kids - I would watch them. I would actually eat lunch with them in the cafeteria at least twice a week (which I have to insert here - this caused my fellow colleagues to "dislike" me - they valued their precious free time and could not for the life of them figure out why I would actually want to do that! I was ostracized in a few schools because of this - one principal told me I was not allowed to eat with my students - I kid you not).

I had one child that really really concerned me. To him - one day I would be his best friend and he would be great and the very next day - I was the antichrist. I was actually afraid of him. I had a few conferences with his father - and yes, this child had a father but his mother was not (and had not been) in the picture for a few years. At one point I asked my administrator (who was well aware of this child and my concerns) if I could ask dad, who was coming in for yet another conference, if there were any weapons in the home. My administrator didn't know and would get back with me. At the end of the day I was called in and told that, in no uncertain terms, could I ask about weapons in the home and that his came from the district offices. Needless to say I was livid but I had to abide by what I was told. It was after that - that I did something that would have cost me my job and possibly my teaching license - and I did this almost everyday. After I took the kids to lunch - I would go back to my room and search his backpack. (searching a child's backpack is NOT ALLOWED without permission - period - end of discussion - full stop). But I did it anyway as I was that afraid that I could be teaching in front of the class, look up and have a gun pointed at me! As I was in Florida, when Parkland happened I did the math and this child was of the same age and did some research to make sure it wasn't this child that I had.

I completely and totally agree there HAS TO BE MORE DONE to identify and flag these shooters - but until the "powers that be" start to recognize teachers as professionals with a voice in this - it isn't going to happen.

A lot of teachers don't even think about this - or care. There are signs - they way they answer questions, they way they interact with other children. body language, micro-facial expressions, - just watch them, talk to them, get to (or try to get to) know them, making personal connection with a child will bring out their personality and those "flags" will surface.

I don't have the answers - I don't know how we are ever going to get this under some type of control but something has to be done and listening to caring, responsible, watchful, and intelligent teachers has to be incorporated into the solution.
 
Well, as I work in Primary School, I can answer about this age period:

- logopedic therapy: lisp, stutter (he was bullied b/c of them)
- checking learning difficulties/help to overcome them (he dropped out of school later on)
- checking home environment (mother/drugs)

Constant monitoring by School Counsellor.
Thank you, this is what I was getting at. By the time he was in high school, these interventions could have possibly still helped, but the trajectory of his dark thoughts was likely well underway by then.
(I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on constant monitoring by school counselor. As a school counselor, I have many colleagues who have well over 500 students on their caseload at that age level. At high school, I have nearly 400 and have to serve all of those students in a wide variety of ways. We need a lot more support staff to accomplish interventions for students at all levels. There may be ways to have support staff do closer monitoring for students, but there are not enough school counselors in the country to do that large-scale.)
 
About the propped door: I guess more details will come out, but it sounds like the teacher who propped the door may have also called 911 from the parking lot. Meanwhile, SR starts shooting at the school from the outside, so I guess if the teacher was still outside, it was too late to close the door. We'll see as the timeline frequently changes


On Friday afternoon, the Texas Department of Public Safety released a new timeline of events detailing what they now believe happened on May 24 at Robb Elementary School:

  • 11:27 a.m. - A video shows the door the gunman used to get inside the school propped open. Steven McCraw, director for Texas DPS, says that it was propped open by a teacher.
  • 11:28 a.m. - The gunman crashes his truck into a ditch. At around this time, the teacher who left the door propped open runs inside the school to get a phone to call 911. Two men at a nearby funeral home run to the crash scene. They see the armed suspect, turn around and run away. The gunman shoots at them, but doesn't hit them.
  • 11:30 a.m. - A 911 call is made to report the crash and a man with a gun.
  • 11:31 a.m. - The suspect hides behind a row of cars in the school's parking lot. This is when police arrive at the school and find a teacher at the back door. They don't see the gunman. This is also when the gunman starts shooting at the school.
  • 11:33 a.m. - The gunman gets into the school through the propped open door, turns down a hallway and starts shooting into a classroom -- either room 111 or 112. According to McCraw, they cannot determine which classroom it was based on current evidence. DPS does say, however, based on audio evidence the gunman shot more than 100 rounds at this time.
  • 11:35 a.m. - Three Uvalde police officers enter the school through the same door the gunman used. They are later followed by four other law enforcement officers. The first three officers go toward the classroom where the gunman is with the door closed, and they are shot at and grazed by bullets.
  • 11:37 a.m. - Another 16 rounds are fired by the gunman.
  • 11:51 a.m. - More police officers arrive.
 
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About the propped door: I guess more details will come out, but it sounds like the teacher who propped the door may have also called 911 from the parking lot. Meanwhile, SR starts shooting at the school from the outside, so I guess if the teacher was still outside, it was too late to close the door. We'll see as the timeline frequently changes


On Friday afternoon, the Texas Department of Public Safety released a new timeline of events detailing what they now believe happened on May 24 at Robb Elementary School:

  • 11:27 a.m. - A video shows the door the gunman used to get inside the school propped open. Steven McCraw, director for Texas DPS, says that it was propped open by a teacher.
  • 11:28 a.m. - The gunman crashes his truck into a ditch. At around this time, the teacher who left the door propped open runs inside the school to get a phone to call 911. Two men at a nearby funeral home run to the crash scene. They see the armed suspect, turn around and run away. The gunman shoots at them, but doesn't hit them.
  • 11:30 a.m. - A 911 call is made to report the crash and a man with a gun.
  • 11:31 a.m. - The suspect hides behind a row of cars in the school's parking lot. This is when police arrive at the school and find a teacher at the back door. They don't see the gunman. This is also when the gunman starts shooting at the school.
  • 11:33 a.m. - The gunman gets into the school through the propped open door, turns down a hallway and starts shooting into a classroom -- either room 111 or 112. According to McCraw, they cannot determine which classroom it was based on current evidence. DPS does say, however, based on audio evidence the gunman shot more than 100 rounds at this time.
  • 11:35 a.m. - Three Uvalde police officers enter the school through the same door the gunman used. They are later followed by four other law enforcement officers. The first three officers go toward the classroom where the gunman is with the door closed, and they are shot at and grazed by bullets.
  • 11:37 a.m. - Another 16 rounds are fired by the gunman.
  • 11:51 a.m. - More police officers arrive.

One thing I'm not understanding---if at 11:28, the teacher who propped open the door "runs inside the school," why didn't that teacher slam the door closed when he or she ran back in?

According to the timeline, the gunman enters through the propped open door at 11:33.
That leaves five full minutes, after the teacher ran back into the school to call 911, before the gunman entered through that propped open door.

Even if the teacher was racing to get inside due to fear for her/his life, the two seconds it would take to slam the door closed once he or she was inside might have (IMO WOULD have) made all the difference.

I'm presuming the door that the teacher propped open was done so for convenience's sake, since clearly this teacher didn't go out through the proper exit, and therefore this was the door the teacher would've raced back to in order to get inside and call 911.

I can understand the mistake or impulse to prop open a door that was meant to stay closed. I've done it. I DON'T understand not slamming it closed once the teacher saw the gunman and ran back in.

Jmo
 
One thing I'm not understanding---if at 11:28, the teacher who propped open the door "runs inside the school," why didn't that teacher slam the door closed when he or she ran back in?

According to the timeline, the gunman enters through the propped open door at 11:33.
That leaves five full minutes, after the teacher ran back into the school to call 911, before the gunman entered through that propped open door.

Even if the teacher was racing to get inside due to fear for her/his life, the two seconds it would take to slam the door closed once he or she was inside might have (IMO WOULD have) made all the difference.

I'm presuming the door that the teacher propped open was done so for convenience's sake, since clearly this teacher didn't go out through the proper exit, and therefore this was the door the teacher would've raced back to in order to get inside and call 911.

I can understand the mistake or impulse to prop open a door that was meant to stay closed. I've done it. I DON'T understand not slamming it closed once the teacher saw the gunman and ran back in.

Jmo
I got the impression that the teacher was outside calling 911 at 11:30 and was likely the same teacher that the SRO spotted at 11:31 in the parking lot. Shooting also began at 11:31
 
I've tried hard to imagine 19 police officers not going in to kill the gunman.
No matter how I think about it, I am thunder struck.
Perhaps an old saying is appropriate here.
"Evil prevails when good men do nothing".
I just cannot understand how these officers hung out, knowing, there were other grade school children at risk in that building.
Why weren't they considering the possible wounded that could be saved?
Did some Commander actually tell them the victims were all dead? How would this Commander know that?
There's no camera feed to law enforcement.
As what happened comes to light, I think the world will be shocked.
I am already shocked.
 
The school police chief obviously needed more training on what to do. He's the one that ordered the officers from various agencies not to go in because he thought it was just a barricaded suspect in an empty room. There were so many different LE agencies on scene, someone else should have taken control and given the order much earlier rather that BORTAC finally deciding they had enough and leading every one else in on their own
Essentially, that's what happened here. Not unlike a war where the General leads the troops into battle, the incident commander is the point person that calls the shots for LE. However, as a CNN analyst provided earlier and quoted below, the police force can reject or override the incident commander if they believe the commander is making the wrong call.

In thread #1, I provided CNN analyst comment how other officers can decide to ignore or overrule the "incident commander" and it appears this is exactly what the border patrol decided to do:

But if officers on the scene of an incident come to believe the "incident commander" is making the wrong calls, they can ignore or overrule his decisions, Barksdale said. "And you face him later on and... deal with it," he added.

An unidentified police officer involved in the Robb School shooting provided that it was a near mutiny where they did talk about ignoring the Chief's orders before the BORTAC arrived and took charge except they were missing the plan -- their incident commander's only plan was his belief that he needed more equipment and officers to do a tactical breach:

According to Steven McCraw, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Arredondo believed that the shooter had barricaded himself in an empty classroom, and that no children were under an active threat.

[..]

But not all officers agreed with Arredondo's decision. One of the officers who was standing outside the school says that he and his colleagues discussed whether to go into the school anyway.


"There was almost a mutiny," the officer tells PEOPLE. "We were like, 'There's a f---ing gunman in the school, we hear gunshots, and we're just going to stand here with our thumbs up our asses?' We wanted to go in and save lives. It was the most frustrating situation of my entire career."


"We felt like cowards," the officer continues. "It felt cowardly to stand off and let this punk, this kid, this 18-year-old just go in and do whatever he wanted to do. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of cussing, a lot of people who were saying that we should just say f--- it and go in, but then what? We needed to have a plan, and the commander didn't have a plan."

 
I've tried hard to imagine 19 police officers not going in to kill the gunman.
No matter how I think about it, I am thunder struck.
Perhaps an old saying is appropriate here.
"Evil prevails when good men do nothing".
I just cannot understand how these officers hung out, knowing, there were other grade school children at risk in that building.
Why weren't they considering the possible wounded that could be saved?
Did some Commander actually tell them the victims were all dead? How would this Commander know that?
There's no camera feed to law enforcement.
As what happened comes to light, I think the world will be shocked.
I am already shocked.
Same here. They talk about "There was no plan." What plan do you need in an emergency situation when there is an active shooter killing children? The answer is universally known and that includes Texas.
"In 2019, the Texas legislature passed a measure requiring that all school police officers undergo the training, and noted the shift in law enforcement tactics since Columbine and the failures of the Parkland response. An arriving officer’s “first priority is to move in and confront the attacker”, the state curriculum advises.

“First responders to the active shooter scene will usually be required to place themselves in harm’s way and display uncommon acts of courage to save the innocent,” the Texas curriculum states.

The 2020 state manual adds: “A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field.”

The Parkland case will probably set a precedent for this case:

 
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Essentially, that's what happened here. Not unlike a war where the General leads the troops into battle, the incident commander is the point person that calls the shots for LE. However, as a CNN analyst provided earlier and quoted below, the police force can reject or override the incident commander if they believe the commander is making the wrong call.
I spoke to my husband about this. He was a HS Principal for 25 years, at 5A very large, but somewhat high crime, urban schools. (5A is the largest campus size in Texas) He said the Uvalde Consolidated ISD Police Chief was in way over his head and should have turned it over to the other agencies.

Campus police just do not engage with high risk situations on a frequent basis

They don't:
Serve warrants on dangerous criminals
Get involved with or negotiate domestic disturbances
Conduct routine traffic stops

All of these routine procedures put regular officers in higher risk situations, so that they are better able to handle a major incident.
Sure training for an active shooter is one thing, however dealing with dangerous unpredictable criminals on a daily basis also provides a needed experience because the LEO has more experience with dangerous situations.
 
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